I prefer to make sourdough my whole family will eat!
Here is the additives and why they are there. I can't see a problem with these.
1.Gluten - Improves the texture, especially with bread with rye flour and whole wheat more than 50%. Makes the texture more elastic and less crumbly AHa! Helps hold it's shape after it's risen, also makes a better crust. Experiment by adding about 1-2 table spoons.
2.Soy Flour - Helps keep baked goods from becoming stale. It adds a rich color, fine texture, tenderness and moistness to baked goods. Since soy flour is free of gluten, which gives structure to yeast-raised breads, soy flour cannot replace all of the wheat or rye flour in a bread recipe. However, using about 15 percent soy flour in a recipe produces a dense bread with a nutty flavor and a wonderful moist quality. Just place two tablespoons of soy flour in your measuring cup before measuring all-purpose or other flour called for in the recipe. OK so 15% soy which is about 90g in a loaf - I'll experiment around there.
3.Ascorbic Acid or Vitamin C - Creates an acidic environment for the yeast which helps it work better. It also acts as a preservative & deters mold and bacterial growth. With just a touch of ascorbic acid, your Artisan breads, the yeast will work longer and faster. Right just a pinch of that!
4.Emulsifier(E481)-Increase the springiness, toughness and gas-holding capability of dough, increase volume of the bread and steam bread and improve the organization and structure.
It can react with amylase to delay and prevent the food aging. Wo - I'm not sure how much? There was also enzyme and the vitamins Thiamine and folic acid which I think need to be added by law. And of course salt - non iodised - there may be a reason?
I'm in the process of doing my own mix experimenting with the above.
Since starting to make sourdough only recently I had no success until I bought a bag of Allied Mills Bavarian Dark Rye Mix that has the additives that Urban Farmer talks about. All I do is empty the levain into the mixer, add 50/50 Bavarian Mix/Wallaby Baker's Flour, some warm water and in five minutes the dough hook turns it all into a very sticky brown glob that I drop into a baker's tin, dust with flour and proof overnight. Then into the oven the next morning. Although I say so myself, it comes out absolutely PERFECT every time. The bread has a great sourdough rye taste and the dark colour makes it look very special. Goodonya Urban Farmer.
Urban Pharma. Very clever, Mick! But I wonder if rigid adherence to the practices of our ancestors really makes sense in the case of baking bread. I know gluten has to be avoided by people who are intolerant to it, but I wonder if the other additives are really harmful to our systems, more so than say, breathing in carbon monoxide from cars, eating pesticide-drenched vegetables and hormoned meat or drinking from plastic. Going back to times of olde doesn't make sense in say, medicine or (shudder) dentistry and so I am prepared to take advantage of modern practices if they make things easier and produce better results. I am a fastidious reader of packaging in supermarkets with the aim of avoiding chemicals as much as possible, but are soy flour and vitamin C really considered to be chemicals? I bake my own bread (previously yeast wholemeal, now sourdough rye) because I think the supermarket stuff is crap and I know what's in my own bread, but if I am going to invest valuable time and energy in the baking I want the best results. Absolute purity is unattainable so I don't waste my time trying to achieve it. No doubt this will draw the crabs.
ZHIEM - gluten is a natural constituent of wheat flour. People with an intolerence of gluten don't just avoid including it as an additive - they just DON'T USE WHEAT FLOUR.
Well, just put your perception of me to one side for a minute.
Loads of people make fantastic naturally leavened bread using flour, water, a natural starter and salt and nothing else. The art of bread making is learning how to make great bread with the flour available to you. This is one of the world-renowned forums for people who want to learn these skills and to pass on these skills.
As I said above, how someone makes their bread is their own affair. But if you post a message on a forum like this that suggests including a load of additives in your dough and further suggests that this is the modern way and that people who don't use additives are living in the Stone Age, then I think you deserve an appropriate response.
You'll be pleased to hear this is all I have to say on the subject.
Do you really think those who frequent this website are unaware of the alternatives? I may not agree with everything Urban farmer had to say, but I strongly support anyone who wants to experiment with different methods and not consider themselves hamstrung by the somewhat questionable "purity" of those who practised the craft centuries ago - and BTW did not have these modern options available to them.
And I also dislike people coming into this forum and adopting a holier than thou mindset which they then take as a licence for cheap attacks on others who take a less fundamentalist approach.
We are all breadmakers so we all have that over ordinary mortals, so let's not start a war of words, but after all, this is a sourdough site - and sourdough is really just flour, water, salt and levain.
This was a successful experiment I wanted to share with others. I've been making bread for many years and never seen oven spring like it! I was keen to find out why?
I did find it odd a couple of people e-mailed me personally asking for measurements, which I understand now from Mick's attack.
My kids also ask for this bread in the morning and for my a compromise between the heavier breads I've made in the past.
I will continue to experiment with all means to make fresh, tangy bread.
Incidently Mick if you read my blog now an e-book at www.backyardfood.blogspot.com you'll see just how far off the mark you name calling was.
..........and I still think that Mick has a good point, perhaps even more so. I don't think that Mick resorted to name calling in its purest sense. I think he only suggested a user name that may more closely describe your bread making views.
For the record, I also believe you should be able to make bread any way you see fit to make it. I also think that you may be extolling some of the short cuts that artisanal sourdough bakers eschew at all costs.
Does this mean that if one tries to make healthy sourdough bread without adhering rigidly to ancient restricted practice, one is justifiably referred to as a chemist and thus be deserving of forum censure? Does this mean that "extolling" is permissable only if it represents your view? I can't help thinking that the bakers of distant times would have dearly loved to have had what bakers have available today. Just as I am sure that there are many practioners of ancient practices today whose floury fingers must twitch in yearning to get hold of some soy flour or vitamin C to make things just a bit easier on themselves. Go on, admit it. And don't worry, we won't tell anyone.
Answer to first question: "Does this mean that if one tries to make healthy sourdough bread without adhering rigidly to ancient restricted practice, one is justifiably referred to as a chemist and thus be deserving of forum censure?"
Firstly, ancient is not the term I would use to describe those practices that seem to have become unpopular 70 years ago.
Secondly, I think that the chemist moniker was purely tongue in cheek.
Lastly, ....forum censure.....you are kidding right? No one censured Urban Farmer, just disagreed with him. Some more strongly than others, I'll give you that.
Next question: "Does this mean that "extolling" is permissible only if it represents your view?"
Absolutely not, you may extoll anything you like. You must, however, be prepared for others to have a differing viewpoint. Remember, I did say: "For the record, I also believe you should be able to make bread any way you see fit to make it."
I sort of agree with your next point, that "bakers of distant times would have loved to have what bakers have today." In an industrial sense I think you are correct.
Things like:
Ascorbic acid - used to strengthen the gluten
Hydrochloride - gluten softening and clearing
Sodium metabisulfate - gluten softening and clearing
Ammonium chloride - food for yeast
Phosphates - food for yeast
Sound delicious don't they.
Ascorbic Acid = Vitamin C - When you say this, one might immediately believe that it is the same as what you get from eating an orange. Not hardly.... from Wikipedia
Industrial preparation of Ascorbic Acid
Ascorbic acid is synthesized from glucose through a five-step process. First, glucose, a pentahydroxy aldose, is reduced to sorbitol, which is then oxidized by the microorganismAcetobacter suboxydans. To selectively oxidize only one of the six hydroxy groups in sorbitol, an enzymatic reaction is involved. Treatment with acetone and an acid catalyst then protects four of the remaining hydroxyl groups in acetyl linkages. The unprotected hydroxyl group is chemically oxidized to the carboxylic acid by reaction with sodium hypochlorite (bleaching solution). Hydrolysis with acid then removes the two acetyl groups. The removal then causes an internal ester-forming reaction to yield ascorbic acid. Each of the five steps has a yield larger than 90%.
......once again, Yum, yum, yum.
Then there is the old standby E481: Also from Wikipedia
Sodium stearoyl lactate and calcium stearoyl lactate (stearoyl-2-lactylates) are organic compounds used as a food additives (E number E481) in the List of food additives, Codex Alimentarius.
They are produced by first esterifying lactic acid to produce lactylic acid, performing a second esterification with stearic acid, and then reacting the result with sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide to make the sodium or calcium salt. These salts are used as emulsifiers in processed foods.
Replacing the lactic acid with fumaric acid gives sodium stearoyl fumarate, a compound with similar uses.
The commercially available food additive is not composed of chemically pure stearoyl-2-lactylate. Rather, the lactic acid esterification produces a variety of polylactyls (typically numbering from one to three lactyl groups), while the chain length of the acyl fatty acid may also vary from 14 to 22 carbons, thus including palmitic and arachidic acid. Pure stearoyl-2-lactylates can be produced through an intermediate benzylether derivative.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm....... just like mom used to make.
I'll have no need to admit to any "yearnings" or "itchings" other than the desire to make a simple loaf of bread from water, flour and salt.
You go ahead and make it as easy as you want, easier does not automatically imply better.
I see you are from the school of thought that thinks that anything with a long chemical name is something to scare the kids with... and blow any sort of understanding and knowledge.
If you need to argue by association - ie, all additives are the same, and the most benign ingredient is just as bad as the most toxic - then I wonder what you are really trying to achieve.
The OP came here to share his experiences in the spirit of curiosity and exploration - and to get some input... instead he triggered a bout of snide personal attacks and religious zealotry... well done guys.
I see you are from the school of thought that thinks that anything with a long chemical name is something to scare the kids with... and blow any sort of understanding and knowledge.
There are kids here?
What is your understanding of all of those "long chemical names"? If it is the same as mine, then there is very little understanding, which is what scares me.
This next statement:
If you need to argue by association - ie, all additives are the same, and the most benign ingredient is just as bad as the most toxic - then I wonder what you are really trying to achieve.
Well, I am hardly arguing that all additives are the same. Salt for instance is NaCL, but I understand that and I am aware of it, and I am pretty sure I am aware of the health implications of it. The other stuff I posted.......not so much.
This statement is a bit off base:
The OP came here to share his experiences in the spirit of curiosity and exploration - and to get some input... instead he triggered a bout of snide personal attacks and religious zealotry... well done guys.
If the OP came here in the spirit of "curiosity and exploration", he masked it very well. I reckon that a question mark after "Sourdough Easy" instead of an exclamation point might have helped.
Oh, and what gives with the reference to religious zealotry? Seems to me that you are trying to make more out of this than what is justified,
This is my last post in this thread. Millciti wrote a very poignant reply lower down. I agree with that post completely.
Zhiem, there are always some who want to control and limit what others think and do... usually they wear religious garb, but not always. Despite the noise they make, they have no effect on most of us because there is no actual basis to their prejudices and superstitions.
Keep a lid on that testosterone! [rolls eyes]. I don't think anyone's trying to control anyone else. There are those of us who believe that artisan baking (or artisan anything, for that matter) should be about combining craft and the best of traditional ingredients to make a superior quality product. So, for bread, flour, water, salt and some sort of leaven, and nothing else. The rest of the deal is all in the skill and technique of the baker. Any "crutches" like added gluten, emulsifiers, ascorbic acid are seen as devaluing the craft.
Then there are others who just want to produce the best quality bread they can and do not prioritise the craft aspect. Both views are fair enough, although those who use "crutches" can't really claim to be upholding artisan values or using the degree of skill of a true artisan baker. But each to their own, surely? No need for scrapping!
Much better. And I am me, myself, and not someone else. I guess I would prefer to eat your "pure" bread if it was better in taste and texture, but that's not been my (short) experience. I think I would find it difficult, in any case, to find something in the supermarket to spread on your pure bread that has not been processed, that doesn't contain additives or preservatives or hasn't been sprayed with pesticide somewhere along the line. The same goes for the wine or other beverage you wash it down with. Not to mention the vessels and implements you use, the built environment around you and the air you breathe. As I said before, I think absolute purity is unattainable and so I won't waste my time with it. But that's only my uneducated view.
Much better. And I am me, myself, and not someone else. I guess I would prefer to eat your "pure" bread if it was better in taste and texture, but that's not been my (short) experience.
[/quote]
I agree. If you don't like your bread, you shouldn't be forced to eat it.
[quote=Zhiem]
I think I would find it difficult, in any case, to find something in the supermarket to spread on your pure bread that has not been processed, that doesn't contain additives or preservatives or hasn't been sprayed with pesticide somewhere along the line. The same goes for the wine or other beverage you wash it down with. Not to mention the vessels and implements you use, the built environment around you and the air you breathe.
[/quote]
I am sure that you could find many types of food and drink that are sans pesticides and preservatives if you care to look around. As for the environment around us and the air we breathe, well Zhiem you can only try and control what is controllable.
[quote=Zhiem]
As I said before, I think absolute purity is unattainable and so I won't waste my time with it. But that's only my uneducated view.
[/quote]
When did this turn into a thread about absolute purity of everything. The OP posted about adding dough improvers to make sourdough baking "easier" and make the bread "better" . What could be "easier" than mixing up a batch of true lean sourdough? What could be "better" than baking a delicious loaf of bread with just those few ingredients? If your sourdough attempts haven't appealed to you or your family, then keep practicing. There are many here and on other sites who would be willing to help. Don't just add a bunch of chemically engineered "crap" and then say "Ooh, this is much better, because it's easier."
Oh, and at what point does one consider oneself “educated”? I was just wondering.
Before I start I would like to say something most have forgotten... Welcome to the Sourdough Companion - Urban Farmer!... You were very brave to jump into this site with this recipe!! However-
This is not the first, nor last discussion here that has heated up to fisticuffs!!! If you have been reading at this site for a while, you will see that we are all passionate about sourdough baking. That passion often fuels the fire! By the way we are all somewhat Moderators here, to encourage the fine Art of Sourdough Bread Making! Experimentation is generally encouraged - but you aren't talking method really, you are "cheating" more than just a little bit by using chemically produced improvers. These really are not elements of "Sourdough"
I too have objected before when relatively new participants at this site come in and post a recipe that they title "Easy," which doesn't really capture the spirit of "Essential Sourdough Bread." -A fermented Bread made from scratch, with a starter or lactic acid bacteria and yeast culture, and the best unadulterated ingredients you can find. Basic sourdough is comprised of Flour, water, salt and a wonderful soup of wild yeast, lactic acid bacteria, which actually protects itself from the invasion of "bad bacteria" and protects us.
I also sometimes put additives in my bread - eggs, milk, apples, pumpkin, non-instant powdered dry milk, beer, raw sugar, honey, potatoes, whey left from cheese making, and various other simple ingredients. By the way, these things are not in my starter. Nothing that is kept shelf stable by additives - all these ingredients can deteriorate, and ferment, or rot, if not used in a timely manner. I have been following the idea that since commercial yeast is relatively a new convention - all forms of bread were produced without it at some point of time.
There is growing evidence that the things that modern science is doing to the food we eat is actually killing us. I am a lifetime student of Nutrition. Additives are part of the problem - how we process the food that we eat, is another strong contributor. The Spirit of this site is to get back to the Basics, not to get with, or follow the current Food Industry. Adding wholesome ingredients to change the structure of your bread can make it more palatable to your family so I still encourage you with that. And some of the additives you mention are already in most storebought flour and cannot be avoided, unless you have a source of pure grain flour.
Calling this Blog "Sourdough" Easy, is simply not the Best Title. It encourages most New participants to think that the problem with their attempts at sourdough baking, is that they need the additives you are promoting.
By the way some of the "contributors" that all of you are attacking are "World Renowned Sourdough Advocates and Bakers"!!! And their intent is only to see anyone here develop the skills to make the best, and healthiest, Sourdough Bread you have ever tasted!! Urban Farmer - Most have encouraged you to change the title of your post - maybe this will help you to understand why... Hopefully this will not be your last post here :)
If only the other members who were so quick to jump in and beat up the OP were as respectful and passionate as you. I don't agree completely with your narrow interpretation of sourdough, but I do like the way you say it. That's moot anyway, because I'm not here to advocate one side or the other - and since when did this all become so black and white anyway? I simply object to the way Urban Farmer was treated, by those who assumed some kind of moral superiority for their views gave them licence to be obnoxious to him.
It seems that any discussion of this kind on this site automatically descends into something resembling a madhouse, with lashings of stupidity and aggression - perhaps the lesson to be learnt is to limit postings here to the basic sharing of recipes, and to take the grown up discussions to other sites which don't display this culture, nor allow it. I understand Graham's reasons for allowing ghost users here; unfortunately I don't think it's working - but he has every right to operate this site as he wishes.
Terri, I have been extremely fortunate to have worked alongside the occasional "world renowned" person in one field and another, and the quality that all of them have shared is a modesty and approachability not at all evident in this thread.
Had I stumbled on this earlier, my comments would perhaps have been similar to yours. It is very hard to write tone in a blog or an email. Thanks for Trying to stand up for the New Guy!!!
I guess I will just have to suffer the ignominy of being a sourdough cheat, even if clothed less conspicuously within Millciti's kind quotation marks. I consider my sourdough rye superior at least to the supermarket variety and I still maintain that there is an element of futility in artisanal efforts considering the preponderance of pollutants in our food generally. But at the same time I think the aims are commendable and I shouldn't criticise. Perhaps one day I will eat some artisan sourdough that will force me to give away my poisonous practices and become a true believer like others on this forum.
Replies
The reason I make my own bread is to get back to the natural no-additive bread that my ancestors ate.
I prefer to make sourdough my whole family will eat!
Here is the additives and why they are there. I can't see a problem with these.
1.Gluten - Improves the texture, especially with bread with rye flour and whole wheat more than 50%. Makes the texture more elastic and less crumbly AHa! Helps hold it's shape after it's risen, also makes a better crust. Experiment by adding about 1-2 table spoons.
2.Soy Flour - Helps keep baked goods from becoming stale. It adds a rich color, fine texture, tenderness and moistness to baked goods. Since soy flour is free of gluten, which gives structure to yeast-raised breads, soy flour cannot replace all of the wheat or rye flour in a bread recipe. However, using about 15 percent soy flour in a recipe produces a dense bread with a nutty flavor and a wonderful moist quality. Just place two tablespoons of soy flour in your measuring cup before measuring all-purpose or other flour called for in the recipe. OK so 15% soy which is about 90g in a loaf - I'll experiment around there.
3.Ascorbic Acid or Vitamin C - Creates an acidic environment for the yeast which helps it work better. It also acts as a preservative & deters mold and bacterial growth. With just a touch of ascorbic acid, your Artisan breads, the yeast will work longer and faster. Right just a pinch of that!
4.Emulsifier(E481)-Increase the springiness, toughness and gas-holding capability of dough, increase volume of the bread and steam bread and improve the organization and structure.
It can react with amylase to delay and prevent the food aging. Wo - I'm not sure how much?
There was also enzyme and the vitamins Thiamine and folic acid which I think need to be added by law.
And of course salt - non iodised - there may be a reason?
I'm in the process of doing my own mix experimenting with the above.
Since starting to make sourdough only recently I had no success until I bought a bag of Allied Mills Bavarian Dark Rye Mix that has the additives that Urban Farmer talks about. All I do is empty the levain into the mixer, add 50/50 Bavarian Mix/Wallaby Baker's Flour, some warm water and in five minutes the dough hook turns it all into a very sticky brown glob that I drop into a baker's tin, dust with flour and proof overnight. Then into the oven the next morning. Although I say so myself, it comes out absolutely PERFECT every time. The bread has a great sourdough rye taste and the dark colour makes it look very special. Goodonya Urban Farmer.
Great to here! So all I need to do is add half the flour mix to some flour - I'll try it - will stretch my dollar further!
Thanks.
How someone makes their bread is their own affair.
But did you ever consider changing your name to Urban Pharma?
Mick
www.bethesdabakers.com
http://thepartisanbaker.wordpress.com/
Urban Pharma. Very clever, Mick! But I wonder if rigid adherence to the practices of our ancestors really makes sense in the case of baking bread. I know gluten has to be avoided by people who are intolerant to it, but I wonder if the other additives are really harmful to our systems, more so than say, breathing in carbon monoxide from cars, eating pesticide-drenched vegetables and hormoned meat or drinking from plastic. Going back to times of olde doesn't make sense in say, medicine or (shudder) dentistry and so I am prepared to take advantage of modern practices if they make things easier and produce better results. I am a fastidious reader of packaging in supermarkets with the aim of avoiding chemicals as much as possible, but are soy flour and vitamin C really considered to be chemicals? I bake my own bread (previously yeast wholemeal, now sourdough rye) because I think the supermarket stuff is crap and I know what's in my own bread, but if I am going to invest valuable time and energy in the baking I want the best results. Absolute purity is unattainable so I don't waste my time trying to achieve it. No doubt this will draw the crabs.
ZHIEM - gluten is a natural constituent of wheat flour. People with an intolerence of gluten don't just avoid including it as an additive - they just DON'T USE WHEAT FLOUR.
Why add it when it occurs naturally??????
AL
Farmer/Pharma was a bit naughty but too good a joke to walk past.
So far this week I've been called a purist and now a fundamentalist - I must be touching a nerve.
I'm just someone who can make good bread without resort to the bathroom cabinet.
Happy Baking
Mick
www.bethesdabakers.com
www.thepartisanbaker.com
Smug self-congratulatory jokes which attack other members? Yeah really hilarious.
Well, just put your perception of me to one side for a minute.
Loads of people make fantastic naturally leavened bread using flour, water, a natural starter and salt and nothing else. The art of bread making is learning how to make great bread with the flour available to you. This is one of the world-renowned forums for people who want to learn these skills and to pass on these skills.
As I said above, how someone makes their bread is their own affair. But if you post a message on a forum like this that suggests including a load of additives in your dough and further suggests that this is the modern way and that people who don't use additives are living in the Stone Age, then I think you deserve an appropriate response.
You'll be pleased to hear this is all I have to say on the subject.
Mick
www.bethesdabakers.com
www.thepartisanbaker.com
Do you really think those who frequent this website are unaware of the alternatives? I may not agree with everything Urban farmer had to say, but I strongly support anyone who wants to experiment with different methods and not consider themselves hamstrung by the somewhat questionable "purity" of those who practised the craft centuries ago - and BTW did not have these modern options available to them.
And I also dislike people coming into this forum and adopting a holier than thou mindset which they then take as a licence for cheap attacks on others who take a less fundamentalist approach.
We are all breadmakers so we all have that over ordinary mortals, so let's not start a war of words, but after all, this is a sourdough site - and sourdough is really just flour, water, salt and levain.
Well said, Mick - thanks for the voice of reason.
AL
This was a successful experiment I wanted to share with others. I've been making bread for many years and never seen oven spring like it! I was keen to find out why?
I did find it odd a couple of people e-mailed me personally asking for measurements, which I understand now from Mick's attack.
My kids also ask for this bread in the morning and for my a compromise between the heavier breads I've made in the past.
I will continue to experiment with all means to make fresh, tangy bread.
Incidently Mick if you read my blog now an e-book at www.backyardfood.blogspot.com you'll see just how far off the mark you name calling was.
Urban Farmer
..........and I still think that Mick has a good point, perhaps even more so. I don't think that Mick resorted to name calling in its purest sense. I think he only suggested a user name that may more closely describe your bread making views.
For the record, I also believe you should be able to make bread any way you see fit to make it. I also think that you may be extolling some of the short cuts that artisanal sourdough bakers eschew at all costs.
Does this mean that if one tries to make healthy sourdough bread without adhering rigidly to ancient restricted practice, one is justifiably referred to as a chemist and thus be deserving of forum censure? Does this mean that "extolling" is permissable only if it represents your view? I can't help thinking that the bakers of distant times would have dearly loved to have had what bakers have available today. Just as I am sure that there are many practioners of ancient practices today whose floury fingers must twitch in yearning to get hold of some soy flour or vitamin C to make things just a bit easier on themselves. Go on, admit it. And don't worry, we won't tell anyone.
I will try and clarify.
Answer to first question: "Does this mean that if one tries to make healthy sourdough bread without adhering rigidly to ancient restricted practice, one is justifiably referred to as a chemist and thus be deserving of forum censure?"
Firstly, ancient is not the term I would use to describe those practices that seem to have become unpopular 70 years ago.
Secondly, I think that the chemist moniker was purely tongue in cheek.
Lastly, ....forum censure.....you are kidding right? No one censured Urban Farmer, just disagreed with him. Some more strongly than others, I'll give you that.
Next question: "Does this mean that "extolling" is permissible only if it represents your view?"
Absolutely not, you may extoll anything you like. You must, however, be prepared for others to have a differing viewpoint. Remember, I did say: "For the record, I also believe you should be able to make bread any way you see fit to make it."
I sort of agree with your next point, that "bakers of distant times would have loved to have what bakers have today." In an industrial sense I think you are correct.
Things like:
Sound delicious don't they.
Ascorbic Acid = Vitamin C - When you say this, one might immediately believe that it is the same as what you get from eating an orange. Not hardly.... from Wikipedia
Industrial preparation of Ascorbic Acid
Ascorbic acid is synthesized from glucose through a five-step process. First, glucose, a pentahydroxy aldose, is reduced to sorbitol, which is then oxidized by the microorganismAcetobacter suboxydans. To selectively oxidize only one of the six hydroxy groups in sorbitol, an enzymatic reaction is involved. Treatment with acetone and an acid catalyst then protects four of the remaining hydroxyl groups in acetyl linkages. The unprotected hydroxyl group is chemically oxidized to the carboxylic acid by reaction with sodium hypochlorite (bleaching solution). Hydrolysis with acid then removes the two acetyl groups. The removal then causes an internal ester-forming reaction to yield ascorbic acid. Each of the five steps has a yield larger than 90%.
......once again, Yum, yum, yum.
Then there is the old standby E481: Also from Wikipedia
Sodium stearoyl lactate and calcium stearoyl lactate (stearoyl-2-lactylates) are organic compounds used as a food additives (E number E481) in the List of food additives, Codex Alimentarius.
They are produced by first esterifying lactic acid to produce lactylic acid, performing a second esterification with stearic acid, and then reacting the result with sodium hydroxide or calcium hydroxide to make the sodium or calcium salt. These salts are used as emulsifiers in processed foods.
Replacing the lactic acid with fumaric acid gives sodium stearoyl fumarate, a compound with similar uses.
The commercially available food additive is not composed of chemically pure stearoyl-2-lactylate. Rather, the lactic acid esterification produces a variety of polylactyls (typically numbering from one to three lactyl groups), while the chain length of the acyl fatty acid may also vary from 14 to 22 carbons, thus including palmitic and arachidic acid. Pure stearoyl-2-lactylates can be produced through an intermediate benzylether derivative.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm....... just like mom used to make.
I'll have no need to admit to any "yearnings" or "itchings" other than the desire to make a simple loaf of bread from water, flour and salt.
You go ahead and make it as easy as you want, easier does not automatically imply better.
I prefer simple to easy.
I see you are from the school of thought that thinks that anything with a long chemical name is something to scare the kids with... and blow any sort of understanding and knowledge.
If you need to argue by association - ie, all additives are the same, and the most benign ingredient is just as bad as the most toxic - then I wonder what you are really trying to achieve.
The OP came here to share his experiences in the spirit of curiosity and exploration - and to get some input... instead he triggered a bout of snide personal attacks and religious zealotry... well done guys.
Answer to satement one:
I see you are from the school of thought that thinks that anything with a long chemical name is something to scare the kids with... and blow any sort of understanding and knowledge.
There are kids here?
What is your understanding of all of those "long chemical names"? If it is the same as mine, then there is very little understanding, which is what scares me.
This next statement:
If you need to argue by association - ie, all additives are the same, and the most benign ingredient is just as bad as the most toxic - then I wonder what you are really trying to achieve.
Well, I am hardly arguing that all additives are the same. Salt for instance is NaCL, but I understand that and I am aware of it, and I am pretty sure I am aware of the health implications of it. The other stuff I posted.......not so much.
This statement is a bit off base:
The OP came here to share his experiences in the spirit of curiosity and exploration - and to get some input... instead he triggered a bout of snide personal attacks and religious zealotry... well done guys.
If the OP came here in the spirit of "curiosity and exploration", he masked it very well. I reckon that a question mark after "Sourdough Easy" instead of an exclamation point might have helped.
Oh, and what gives with the reference to religious zealotry? Seems to me that you are trying to make more out of this than what is justified,
This is my last post in this thread. Millciti wrote a very poignant reply lower down. I agree with that post completely.
Zhiem, there are always some who want to control and limit what others think and do... usually they wear religious garb, but not always. Despite the noise they make, they have no effect on most of us because there is no actual basis to their prejudices and superstitions.
Keep a lid on that testosterone! [rolls eyes]. I don't think anyone's trying to control anyone else. There are those of us who believe that artisan baking (or artisan anything, for that matter) should be about combining craft and the best of traditional ingredients to make a superior quality product. So, for bread, flour, water, salt and some sort of leaven, and nothing else. The rest of the deal is all in the skill and technique of the baker. Any "crutches" like added gluten, emulsifiers, ascorbic acid are seen as devaluing the craft.
Then there are others who just want to produce the best quality bread they can and do not prioritise the craft aspect. Both views are fair enough, although those who use "crutches" can't really claim to be upholding artisan values or using the degree of skill of a true artisan baker. But each to their own, surely? No need for scrapping!
Much better. And I am me, myself, and not someone else. I guess I would prefer to eat your "pure" bread if it was better in taste and texture, but that's not been my (short) experience. I think I would find it difficult, in any case, to find something in the supermarket to spread on your pure bread that has not been processed, that doesn't contain additives or preservatives or hasn't been sprayed with pesticide somewhere along the line. The same goes for the wine or other beverage you wash it down with. Not to mention the vessels and implements you use, the built environment around you and the air you breathe. As I said before, I think absolute purity is unattainable and so I won't waste my time with it. But that's only my uneducated view.
[quote=Zhiem]
Much better. And I am me, myself, and not someone else. I guess I would prefer to eat your "pure" bread if it was better in taste and texture, but that's not been my (short) experience.
[/quote]
I agree. If you don't like your bread, you shouldn't be forced to eat it.
[quote=Zhiem]
I think I would find it difficult, in any case, to find something in the supermarket to spread on your pure bread that has not been processed, that doesn't contain additives or preservatives or hasn't been sprayed with pesticide somewhere along the line. The same goes for the wine or other beverage you wash it down with. Not to mention the vessels and implements you use, the built environment around you and the air you breathe.
[/quote]
I am sure that you could find many types of food and drink that are sans pesticides and preservatives if you care to look around. As for the environment around us and the air we breathe, well Zhiem you can only try and control what is controllable.
[quote=Zhiem]
As I said before, I think absolute purity is unattainable and so I won't waste my time with it. But that's only my uneducated view.
[/quote]
When did this turn into a thread about absolute purity of everything. The OP posted about adding dough improvers to make sourdough baking "easier" and make the bread "better" . What could be "easier" than mixing up a batch of true lean sourdough? What could be "better" than baking a delicious loaf of bread with just those few ingredients? If your sourdough attempts haven't appealed to you or your family, then keep practicing. There are many here and on other sites who would be willing to help. Don't just add a bunch of chemically engineered "crap" and then say "Ooh, this is much better, because it's easier."
Oh, and at what point does one consider oneself “educated”? I was just wondering.
Before I start I would like to say something most have forgotten... Welcome to the Sourdough Companion - Urban Farmer!... You were very brave to jump into this site with this recipe!! However-
This is not the first, nor last discussion here that has heated up to fisticuffs!!! If you have been reading at this site for a while, you will see that we are all passionate about sourdough baking. That passion often fuels the fire! By the way we are all somewhat Moderators here, to encourage the fine Art of Sourdough Bread Making! Experimentation is generally encouraged - but you aren't talking method really, you are "cheating" more than just a little bit by using chemically produced improvers. These really are not elements of "Sourdough"
I too have objected before when relatively new participants at this site come in and post a recipe that they title "Easy," which doesn't really capture the spirit of "Essential Sourdough Bread." -A fermented Bread made from scratch, with a starter or lactic acid bacteria and yeast culture, and the best unadulterated ingredients you can find. Basic sourdough is comprised of Flour, water, salt and a wonderful soup of wild yeast, lactic acid bacteria, which actually protects itself from the invasion of "bad bacteria" and protects us.
I also sometimes put additives in my bread - eggs, milk, apples, pumpkin, non-instant powdered dry milk, beer, raw sugar, honey, potatoes, whey left from cheese making, and various other simple ingredients. By the way, these things are not in my starter. Nothing that is kept shelf stable by additives - all these ingredients can deteriorate, and ferment, or rot, if not used in a timely manner. I have been following the idea that since commercial yeast is relatively a new convention - all forms of bread were produced without it at some point of time.
There is growing evidence that the things that modern science is doing to the food we eat is actually killing us. I am a lifetime student of Nutrition. Additives are part of the problem - how we process the food that we eat, is another strong contributor. The Spirit of this site is to get back to the Basics, not to get with, or follow the current Food Industry. Adding wholesome ingredients to change the structure of your bread can make it more palatable to your family so I still encourage you with that. And some of the additives you mention are already in most storebought flour and cannot be avoided, unless you have a source of pure grain flour.
Calling this Blog "Sourdough" Easy, is simply not the Best Title. It encourages most New participants to think that the problem with their attempts at sourdough baking, is that they need the additives you are promoting.
By the way some of the "contributors" that all of you are attacking are "World Renowned Sourdough Advocates and Bakers"!!! And their intent is only to see anyone here develop the skills to make the best, and healthiest, Sourdough Bread you have ever tasted!! Urban Farmer - Most have encouraged you to change the title of your post - maybe this will help you to understand why... Hopefully this will not be your last post here :)
Terri
Hi Terri,
If only the other members who were so quick to jump in and beat up the OP were as respectful and passionate as you. I don't agree completely with your narrow interpretation of sourdough, but I do like the way you say it. That's moot anyway, because I'm not here to advocate one side or the other - and since when did this all become so black and white anyway? I simply object to the way Urban Farmer was treated, by those who assumed some kind of moral superiority for their views gave them licence to be obnoxious to him.
It seems that any discussion of this kind on this site automatically descends into something resembling a madhouse, with lashings of stupidity and aggression - perhaps the lesson to be learnt is to limit postings here to the basic sharing of recipes, and to take the grown up discussions to other sites which don't display this culture, nor allow it. I understand Graham's reasons for allowing ghost users here; unfortunately I don't think it's working - but he has every right to operate this site as he wishes.
Terri, I have been extremely fortunate to have worked alongside the occasional "world renowned" person in one field and another, and the quality that all of them have shared is a modesty and approachability not at all evident in this thread.
Had I stumbled on this earlier, my comments would perhaps have been similar to yours. It is very hard to write tone in a blog or an email. Thanks for Trying to stand up for the New Guy!!!
Terri
Eating bread with unnecessary additives makes you angry, argumentative and blind to reason.
Scientific fact.
So there.
I guess I will just have to suffer the ignominy of being a sourdough cheat, even if clothed less conspicuously within Millciti's kind quotation marks. I consider my sourdough rye superior at least to the supermarket variety and I still maintain that there is an element of futility in artisanal efforts considering the preponderance of pollutants in our food generally. But at the same time I think the aims are commendable and I shouldn't criticise. Perhaps one day I will eat some artisan sourdough that will force me to give away my poisonous practices and become a true believer like others on this forum.