Salt does slow gluten development, but adding it after the dough is developed is somewhat difficult. It is convenient to "autolyze" by partially mixing the dough without the salt and allowing it to stand 15-30 minutes or so; by "partially mixing" is meant the bare incorporation of all the ingredients except the salt. The salt is scattered on top of the incorporated ingredients. By the end of the autolyze period it should be clear that the barely mixed dough is active, even rising a little, and the salt will be damp but visible on top. Proceed according to precedent, as Kipling might say. What works for me, mixing by hand, is to knead the dough after the autolyze until I feel that the salt is fully distributed, and then allow the dough to sit and ferment until it can be turned.
My experience with yeasted and sour-fermented doughs alike is that freezing gradually kills the ferment. Richer doughs with a fairly high yeast level freeze OK for a few days or a week, lean doughs only a day or two.
I was told on a course on sourdough that the salt must not be added straight on top of the leaven (was not told why, but I figured that perhaps the salt would kill or retard the yeast). So we were shown to place ingredients into the bowl as follows - starter, water, flour then salt. Also we were told not to use tap water as it is chlorinated (figured that perhaps the chlorine would kill the yeast as well!!). I bought rock salt and found that even my salt mill was struggling to grind it, so I have been dissolving the salt in the water, then adding it after the flour. Works fine - seems no different.
With regards the freezing, we were told that it would retard/kill the starter and that if you wanted to store it for a while, that it is best to dry it by spreading it on baking paper and letting it dry naturally over a few days. Store in a ziplock bag and grind when you want rehydrate it.
We were also advised that the best flour to use to feed the starter is organic rye - seems it keeps better and does not go off so quickly. I leave my starter in the fridge door in a container, and it grows at a nice pace - I make bread every 3-4 days, but have left it for 10 and it was still okay.
Oh yes please! won't dissolve enough or be evenly distributed otherwise. In fact I'd suggest getting some fine salt (I use a fine sea salt) to use instead of "rock" salt - this gives you a much finer/even texture.
In the book Bourke Street Bakery it states, "you will not need to crush sea salt flakes, as they will break down in the dough naturally". I've tried both ways and haven't noticed a difference.
Karen gave you an answer based on her experience, then you disagree. Not having a go at you - just pointing out how your response comes across.
BTW, you didn't ask your question about sea salt flakes. Your question came in the context of a thread in which the previous poster mentioned rock salt. That most certainly DOES have to be ground, and Karen no doubt had this in mind when she replied to you.
There are other types of salt that have to be ground, also. eg: I have some greyish French sea salt that comes in a sort of crystalline form. Add that to your bread without grinding it up first and you'd be in for a gritty bread-eating experience!
Gotta be careful with this bread-making stuff. On one hand, it's pretty simple. On the other, there are many factors involved, many variations in ingredients, a diverse range of techniques, and all make a difference to the final outcome.
If salt is measured by volume rather than weight then it needs to be of a consistent grind, or compensation needs to be made for the differences.
I'm a little doubtful about the value of the different types of salt (meaning sodium chloride) in breadmaking, and I'm happy with table salt, but that's just me.
1. Adds flavor to bread (have you ever tasted bread without salt?)
2. Controls fermentation. At a normal level (1.8 - 2%) salt in a bread recipe, the salt controls the fermentation rate without going overboard and retarding or killing the yeast and/or bacteria.
3. Strengthens gluten and bleaches flour. These two actions happen hand in hand. While strengthening gluten is a good thing, so you get a nice strong loaf of bread, bleaching the flour has a negative effect by killing the flavor of the flour you are using.
There is a general concensus that leaving the salt out of the dough until later in the mixing will produce a loaf with better flavor - and this is true. Leaving the salt out means that the salt is bleaching the flour less. However, as long as you arne't overmixing the dough, I have found the results mixed and not particularly worth the effort - unless you are serving your loaf to an experienced bread connoisseur.
Keeping salt well away from your levain is good advice in general, but a bit of an overstatment. I have baked recipes that add salt (in very small amounts like 0.2%) in the levain - and it is this reason I stumbled upon this thread. I am currently trialling a product that has a salted levain and it seems to make the levain a lot more sour and aromatic. I wonder how/why this happens at a molecular level in the dough. I propose that maybe the salt retards the yeast activity but does not affect the bacteria in the levain leaving a more 'sour' smell and taste in the bread but less volume. I am open to ideas on this subject and will continue trying to find some research about it.
As for when to add salt? Add it at the start of the final dough. It is easier to mix through the dough, you spend less time mucking around with the dough and the positives aren't enough to justify the added time and effort. (But that is just my opinion)
This tehnique works well for me. I use sea salt. I grind it with a pestil & mortor to a fine powder and mix it in after a 30 min. autolyese. It can be a bit difficult to mix in but I do it by hand. When I cant feel the grittiness of the salt during my kneading, I'm done. Then on to a streatch and fold technique before forming my loaf.
If you go to Tuscany, you will find that most of the bread sold there is made without salt. This started way back when the local over-lord put a tax on salt so the bakers decided that rather than pay the tax they would make their bread without salt. The general populace agreed and acquired a taste for bread without salt and the practice has continued since.
Yes, it can taste a little bland at first but you soon get used to it. It's a bit like your first beer from a new brewer, it might taste strange at first but after a few glasses, it kind of grows on you.
I too have made bread with and without an autolyse and would be hard pressed to quantify a difference either in the development and handling or in the finished product. My technique with an autolyse stage is to sprinkle the salt (cooking - coarser than table - I imagine that rock salt would require some sort of grinding) on top of the dough at the start of the autolyse time. It absorbs water from the dough/air and seems to be virtually dissolved and is quite easily incorporated with a bowl scraper. The distribution through the dough is more than adequate through the stretch and fold stages but if you are concerned a bit of conventional kneading would ensure the situation.
I don't think that including an autolyse stage increases the production time at all as this is just a part of the necessary development/bulk ferment stage. And there is a possible argument that it could actually shorten the time necessary given that the presence of salt has a retarding effect on the activity of the yeast. I'm not sure of any effect on bacterial action but those that use a portion of dough as the seed for their next batch of levain routinely have a 'starter' that contains salt.
I don't think this provides any answers, just a few thoughts from my experience and reading.
Replies
Salt does slow gluten development, but adding it after the dough is developed is somewhat difficult. It is convenient to "autolyze" by partially mixing the dough without the salt and allowing it to stand 15-30 minutes or so; by "partially mixing" is meant the bare incorporation of all the ingredients except the salt. The salt is scattered on top of the incorporated ingredients. By the end of the autolyze period it should be clear that the barely mixed dough is active, even rising a little, and the salt will be damp but visible on top. Proceed according to precedent, as Kipling might say. What works for me, mixing by hand, is to knead the dough after the autolyze until I feel that the salt is fully distributed, and then allow the dough to sit and ferment until it can be turned.
My experience with yeasted and sour-fermented doughs alike is that freezing gradually kills the ferment. Richer doughs with a fairly high yeast level freeze OK for a few days or a week, lean doughs only a day or two.
:-)M
I was told on a course on sourdough that the salt must not be added straight on top of the leaven (was not told why, but I figured that perhaps the salt would kill or retard the yeast). So we were shown to place ingredients into the bowl as follows - starter, water, flour then salt. Also we were told not to use tap water as it is chlorinated (figured that perhaps the chlorine would kill the yeast as well!!). I bought rock salt and found that even my salt mill was struggling to grind it, so I have been dissolving the salt in the water, then adding it after the flour. Works fine - seems no different.
With regards the freezing, we were told that it would retard/kill the starter and that if you wanted to store it for a while, that it is best to dry it by spreading it on baking paper and letting it dry naturally over a few days. Store in a ziplock bag and grind when you want rehydrate it.
We were also advised that the best flour to use to feed the starter is organic rye - seems it keeps better and does not go off so quickly. I leave my starter in the fridge door in a container, and it grows at a nice pace - I make bread every 3-4 days, but have left it for 10 and it was still okay.
Hope this helps!
Does the salt have to be grinded?
Oh yes please! won't dissolve enough or be evenly distributed otherwise. In fact I'd suggest getting some fine salt (I use a fine sea salt) to use instead of "rock" salt - this gives you a much finer/even texture.
K.
Happiness is making bread.
In the book Bourke Street Bakery it states, "you will not need to crush sea salt flakes, as they will break down in the dough naturally". I've tried both ways and haven't noticed a difference.
Karen gave you an answer based on her experience, then you disagree. Not having a go at you - just pointing out how your response comes across.
BTW, you didn't ask your question about sea salt flakes. Your question came in the context of a thread in which the previous poster mentioned rock salt. That most certainly DOES have to be ground, and Karen no doubt had this in mind when she replied to you.
There are other types of salt that have to be ground, also. eg: I have some greyish French sea salt that comes in a sort of crystalline form. Add that to your bread without grinding it up first and you'd be in for a gritty bread-eating experience!
Gotta be careful with this bread-making stuff. On one hand, it's pretty simple. On the other, there are many factors involved, many variations in ingredients, a diverse range of techniques, and all make a difference to the final outcome.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound nasty. I only read it just then and it reminded me of this post.
If salt is measured by volume rather than weight then it needs to be of a consistent grind, or compensation needs to be made for the differences.
I'm a little doubtful about the value of the different types of salt (meaning sodium chloride) in breadmaking, and I'm happy with table salt, but that's just me.
:-)Muff
Salt has three major functions in baking
1. Adds flavor to bread (have you ever tasted bread without salt?)
2. Controls fermentation. At a normal level (1.8 - 2%) salt in a bread recipe, the salt controls the fermentation rate without going overboard and retarding or killing the yeast and/or bacteria.
3. Strengthens gluten and bleaches flour. These two actions happen hand in hand. While strengthening gluten is a good thing, so you get a nice strong loaf of bread, bleaching the flour has a negative effect by killing the flavor of the flour you are using.
There is a general concensus that leaving the salt out of the dough until later in the mixing will produce a loaf with better flavor - and this is true. Leaving the salt out means that the salt is bleaching the flour less. However, as long as you arne't overmixing the dough, I have found the results mixed and not particularly worth the effort - unless you are serving your loaf to an experienced bread connoisseur.
Keeping salt well away from your levain is good advice in general, but a bit of an overstatment. I have baked recipes that add salt (in very small amounts like 0.2%) in the levain - and it is this reason I stumbled upon this thread. I am currently trialling a product that has a salted levain and it seems to make the levain a lot more sour and aromatic. I wonder how/why this happens at a molecular level in the dough. I propose that maybe the salt retards the yeast activity but does not affect the bacteria in the levain leaving a more 'sour' smell and taste in the bread but less volume. I am open to ideas on this subject and will continue trying to find some research about it.
As for when to add salt? Add it at the start of the final dough. It is easier to mix through the dough, you spend less time mucking around with the dough and the positives aren't enough to justify the added time and effort. (But that is just my opinion)
This tehnique works well for me. I use sea salt. I grind it with a pestil & mortor to a fine powder and mix it in after a 30 min. autolyese. It can be a bit difficult to mix in but I do it by hand. When I cant feel the grittiness of the salt during my kneading, I'm done. Then on to a streatch and fold technique before forming my loaf.
If you go to Tuscany, you will find that most of the bread sold there is made without salt. This started way back when the local over-lord put a tax on salt so the bakers decided that rather than pay the tax they would make their bread without salt. The general populace agreed and acquired a taste for bread without salt and the practice has continued since.
Yes, it can taste a little bland at first but you soon get used to it. It's a bit like your first beer from a new brewer, it might taste strange at first but after a few glasses, it kind of grows on you.
I too have made bread with and without an autolyse and would be hard pressed to quantify a difference either in the development and handling or in the finished product. My technique with an autolyse stage is to sprinkle the salt (cooking - coarser than table - I imagine that rock salt would require some sort of grinding) on top of the dough at the start of the autolyse time. It absorbs water from the dough/air and seems to be virtually dissolved and is quite easily incorporated with a bowl scraper. The distribution through the dough is more than adequate through the stretch and fold stages but if you are concerned a bit of conventional kneading would ensure the situation.
I don't think that including an autolyse stage increases the production time at all as this is just a part of the necessary development/bulk ferment stage. And there is a possible argument that it could actually shorten the time necessary given that the presence of salt has a retarding effect on the activity of the yeast. I'm not sure of any effect on bacterial action but those that use a portion of dough as the seed for their next batch of levain routinely have a 'starter' that contains salt.
I don't think this provides any answers, just a few thoughts from my experience and reading.
Good luck with your projects.
Farinam