Re rye flour and starter

Hello Normbake ,
Sorry for my late reply and I noticed that there are already related answers to your questions.
I will add another... based on past experience with my French levain rye culture.
I get consistent sour taste if I used rye meal than rye flour in the starter cultivation.The starter recipe was like this
100 parts rye meal,100 parts rye starter,125 parts water.

When you make bread out of that starter it does not matter if you use an admixture of rye meal and flour . You can even add wheat gluten and wheat flour if you want.
The starter culture must be maintained at ambient temperature for better results. It can be used 10 to 12 hours after.

aheemmmmm,,(clearing throat!)
A few queries Carla, could you tell me exactly what is the German scale of flour types in relation to say American flour, for instance you have wheat flour type 1050 is that higher the scale lighter or darker or finer or more whole grain?
Chenbake, heloo! If you would be so kind would you be able to share a more info or a formula for a French Rye, preferably levain? As well do you have any information regarding Desem starters?

Jeremy

[quote="Jeremy"]
aheemmmmm,,(clearing throat!)
A few queries Carla, could you tell me exactly what is the German scale of flour types in relation to say American flour, for instance you have wheat flour type 1050 is that higher the scale lighter or darker or finer or more whole grain?
Chenbake, heloo! If you would be so kind would you be able to share a more info or a formula for a French Rye, preferably levain? As well do you have any information regarding Desem starters?
Jeremy
[/quote]

Jeremy,

Pardon me for butting in here. Those figures refer to the ash content of the flour. The general rule that can be applied is as follows;

* [b]the higher the ash content, the higher the extraction rate of the flour[/b]

What does that mean? Essentially, the flour with a higher extraction rate - higher ash content - contains a larger volume of the grain milled to yield the given quantity of flour. eg. 1kg grain = .850 flour is said to to have an extraction of 85% which has an ash content higher than a flour milled at an extraction rate of 81%

Generally the higher the ash content of the flour the higher the [b]Titratable Acidity[/b] (TA) and the lower the [b]pH[/b] that can be achieved in a sourdough and or bread dough. This is due to the amylase enzyme activity being higher in flours with a higher ash content.

[quote="Jeremy"]
A few queries Carla, could you tell me exactly what is the German scale of flour types in relation to say American flour, for instance you have wheat flour type 1050 is that higher the scale lighter or darker or finer or more whole grain?
[/quote]

Oh jeremy - I DO hope that your German is good enough to look [url=http://xn--prventiv-medizin-wnb.de/index.php?title=Mehl&r=http://www.google.de/search?q=mehltypen%20detmold&q=G:%20mehltypen%20detmold&a=&noad=2][b]here[/b][/url]
That table should tell you all.
The normal white wheat flour mostly used is 405. I liken it to the NZ "standard flour". The higher the numbers the more of the grain is used, the darker the colour. The darkest wheat flour produced is 1600. 1700 is like kibbled wheat, pretty coarse and needs to be soaked before baking. Does this answer your question?

[quote="chembake"]
I get consistent sour taste if I used rye meal than rye flour in the starter cultivation.
[/quote]

Can you explain what the difference between "meal" and "flour" is please?
Thanks.

Ich verstehe Dank! Ich war in Karlshrue wirklich geboren! Haben Sie irgendwelche anderen guten Rezepte? Ich muß Ihnen einiges für irgendein Übersetzung schicken

danke wieder
Jeremy

[quote="Jeremy"]
Haben Sie irgendwelche anderen guten Rezepte? Ich muß Ihnen einiges für irgendein Übersetzung schicken.
[/quote]

Oh Jeremy please just let me learn all this stuff in english first before I translate. Otherwise I won't guarantee for the translations.
I am still having problems with the "terms" here.

For example I had a long discussion about "making more of a sourdough".

In German there is a difference between "Sauerteig Fuehrung" and "Sauerteig Vermehrung".
The first term means that you adhere to some proven recipes to keep your sourdough in best shape (like the Detmold stages).
The second term means you just feed your sourdough some flour and water and keep it in any temperature range you happen to have on the day for as long as you feel like it (or how it fits into your day).

I am sure there must be a proper english expression for this, but it has evaded me since years. Anybody knows what I am talking about?

When basic things like "meal" and 'flour" are used in many different contexts meaning different things then I do get confused.

For example corn meal and cornflour. Obviously one is ground up corn, the other is starch made from corn. However I am sure that the post above was not about rye starch!! So what is the difference in rye then?

Jeremy, I use Firefox as my browser which lets me use the Google translator. Its a bit rough at times but usually lets me get the idea of what's going on, not real good for fine nuances of speech.
Carla, I would take meal to mean the coarsly ground whole grain, as opposed to the finely ground "wholemeal" which is basically an unsifted flour. This is just the way I read it.

Carla, Getreidemehl ist das Schleifen, da Maismehl ein feineres
Prägen der gleichen Sache ist, Roggen, den Mahlzeit auch die
Extraktion gerecht ist, nicht zu stark zu erklären!

You see what macintosh does for my German, translation tools rule!
corn starch by definition in English is not the same as corn flour, it just the milling grade, like German types of flour it's just the milling extraction!

Where are you from in Germany?

Jeremy

Thanks!
Is there a model or scale to follow for American bakers when we want to find similar or substitutes for European flours? It gets confusing with German and French flours with translations!

Jeremy

[quote="Bill44"]
Carla, I would take meal to mean the coarsly ground whole grain, as opposed to the finely ground "wholemeal" which is basically an unsifted flour.
[/quote]

Thanks Bill - I wondered if that could be the case. However you never know with English, especially if you have London English, New York English, Melbourne English and my own NZ English in one forum...

I have learned many different "English" variations over the years and since I live in NZ since 20 years I am trying to specialise in the NZ version of English

[quote="Jeremy"]
Carla, Getreidemehl ist das Schleifen, da Maismehl ein feineres Prägen der gleichen Sache ist, Roggen, den Mahlzeit auch die Extraktion gerecht ist, nicht zu stark zu erklären!
You see what macintosh does for my German, translation tools rule!
[/quote]

Translated back by "Babelfish" this reads in english: "Grain flour is sharpening, since corn flour is finer coining/shaping of the same thing, rye, the meal also the extraction is fair not to explain too strongly!"

Is that what you wanted to say??

[quote="Jeremy"]
corn starch by definition in English is not the same as corn flour, it just the milling grade, like German types of flour it's just the milling extraction!
[/quote]

Well if I buy cornflour here in NZ it definitely is corn starch.
If I want milled corn then it is called cornmeal! It is available in very fine for tortillas and very coarse for polenta. Both called cornmeal!

Hows that for an english-word-mixup?

Hi Jeremy,

you are simply asking for general education purposes, already knowing everything?

As Danubian wrote: simply follow the ash content!

a typical baker's flower has .5 ashes (72% extraction). It is wheat and so the all purpose flour or bread flour for 99% of the world

What industry in the US call "whole" has something about 1.1% ashes and 85% xtraction rate. That means doubled in minerals and fibers. If you grind the grain by yourself ashes have 2.2 % only this is the real 100% extraction stuff. A good HiTec mill is able to produce a very fine flowr of it, not only coarse chopped particles.

Rye: only 1% of the world's grain production is rye. What do you expect from American farmers and millers? But no problem. The real whole grain has 2.2% ashes again. German bakers use flours with 1.1-1.3% and very often a good part of true whole rye for their usual mixed flour doughs. These flours are approximate the medium or dark rye flour in the states. White rye... hm... what could be the use of white rye...

A high percentage of "Vollkornbrot" is sold in Germany. This is not always what you would call artisan bread ( we have no term for artisan bread). It is meant for the people who wants to have the most healthy bread. Not always made with the best baker's skill but with good will.

And to France and Italy: nearly everything was already explained in this forum. Both countries are wheat countries. Both are fond of pure wheat bread. If they use a small amount of rye (5% to example) then they only intent to better the keeping qualities.

Look at the ash content and you know what you need. And if you need .8% simply add some % wholegrain.

Of course, this is the simple home baker's point of view. But see: if you read Jeffrey Hamelman's "bread" you will see: bread baking with European formulas is easy. Where ever you live.

Michael

Carla,
blame it on the Normans! When you make tortillas do they have a mix that has lime water? Or are you making flour tortillas? I think I'll just continue with American English to confuse the conversation, maybe the translating tool isn't the best!

Tchuss!
Jeremy

[quote="Skua"] ..... what you would call artisan bread ( we have no term for artisan bread). [/quote]

Michael, what about ~ "handarbietbrot" , ....LOL

Jeremy, the [b]extraction rate[/b] and [b]ash content[/b] is a rough correlation but one isn't an indication for the other. But as Michael said, it'll do for the home baker, most of the time.

Cheers all!
Michael you really had to show me that scott frame! Oh how decadent, don't laugh at my biking video!
Danubian, (What does that stand for?)
Thanks, it's just so difficult to get real rye anything here, you have to send away for it, no matter how sophisticated baking has become here, wholesale baking is the master here, no small retail or local bakers, lost art! Not like in Paris!

Jeremy

[quote="Jeremy"]Danubian, (What does that stand for?)
[/quote]

It's one of my two online names, my family ancestors are from around the Danube region.

Rye flour is funny stuff. The organic rye you buy from a healthfood store is usually unsifted rye, and is sometimes a slightly coarser grind than you get elsewhere. It sounds like you have some sifted rye, where the coarse bits have been removed, and on first impression you would think it has been mixed with white flour. This is the type of rye flour I mostly use.

[quote="Jeremy"]...
Michael you really had to show me that scott frame! Oh how decadent, don't laugh at my biking video!
...[/quote]
Hi Jeremy, of course I knew these pictures already very well. Difficult to say anything reasonable if you show any pics. Well done boy! As always. New York has great tradition with biking in central park, near the sea side, or even in the streets for more than 100 years. I've found exciting ancient pics in a book written by David V. Herlihey "bicycle: the history" (2004). Or think about the bike couriers on their brakeless racingbikes. Or the race Lance Armstrong lost on a rusty bike trying to compete a brave guy of the fire-brigade a few weeks after 9/11. He lost his rear wheel after circling some blocks.

No, it is not the new Scott addict I ride But baked in the same oven. Here this was my bike yesterday

[img]http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u40/Eisflieger/yesterday.jpg[/img]

Michael

Hi Norm,

I asked the same question just a couple of days ago ...

SourDom says read this:

[url]http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/[/url]

Meet you there!

Carol.

AAAHHHHH Michael, those hills remind me when I used to ride in Allgau for a good Labekase and some big fat Liters of beer in Wangen! Then racing down to Tetnang in between the hops and back to my dads small town, that was fun!
Nice bike, lucky you!

Jeremy

P.S. should have you translate some formulas for us to try out here on the site!

Thanks for sharing that pic with us, Michael. Beautiful! Deep sigh.

Are those schram parts or shimano?

this is not the bike center I know but it's like sourdough, an obsession of grand proportions!

Jeremy

Jeremy,

the translation tools are awful, really awful
It's my theme, I questioned carla in another forum about cornmeal, because I know corn starch only.

I have another question: what is "cream of tarter", I read about sometimes?
I think, I've better started a new thread..

I've said it before but I'll say it again.
Instead of letting your starter sit on the kitchen bench and vary in temperature from 9C to whatever, try keeping it at a constant warm temperature (unless you are resting it in the fridge) I keep mine at 25C and don't have a sour problem.
If you are in the habit of keeping it in the fridge then refresh it twice at 25-26C and I'm sure you will notice the difference. This is what I do with the starters that I only use now and then.
Its all to do with what part of the starter grows at what temperatures, and if you want to get really technical you can do a Detmold 3 stage starter.

Three Stages

Stage 1
This stage starts out with a very small inoculation, depending on the amount of starter I want to grow and has a high hydration - almost 140. Currently I run it for 6 hours at 80 F. The flour multiplication factor is 4.8 times. This stage promotes yeast gowth.
Stage 2
This is the main stage. It is drier - hydration is 66. Currently, I run it for 24 hours at 82 F. The flour multiplication factor is 12.9. This stage promotes acidity and taste components.
Stage 3
The final stage has the same hydration as the original inoculation - 90 and I currently run it at 86 F for 4 hours. The stages promotes growth again, due to the higher temperature, LB bacteria.

This is courtesy of Samartha, Bread and Sourdough.

Normbake,

I am using [url=http://www.wholegrain.com.au]wholegrain milling's[/url] organic rye

I would also try [url=http://www.kiallafoods.com.au]Kialla[/url] (haven't tried their rye, but their white unbleached flour is great stuff!)

dom

[quote]
I have another question: what is "cream of tarter", I read about sometimes?
I think, I've better started a new thread..
[/quote]

Cream of Tartar is chemically Potassium acid tartrate is used as an acidulant in homemade baking powders as well as stabilizing egg while foams

[quote="Jeremy"]
When you make tortillas do they have a mix that has lime water? Or are you making flour tortillas?
[/quote]

No, nobody here makes corn tortillas Jeremy.
You can buy something resembling yellow dust which is supposedly used in a recipe with whaetflour and eggs!! to make tortillas!
But then they make pizza here with a scone dough at the bottom and spaghetti out of a tin on top and call it original Italian pizza!! - so nothing surprises me any more.

I myself have tried making tortillas with an old recipe using wood ash with my own Hopi blue and my little aluminium tortilla press. I quite liked the result, but have nothing to compare it to. So not sure if they tasted right?

Also the baking process on hot stones was somewhat changed in favour of a steel frypan in the kitchen.

[quote="Bill44"]
Detmold 3 stage starter.
Stage 1
This stage starts out with a very small inoculation, depending on the amount of starter I want to grow and has a high hydration - almost 140. Currently I run it for 6 hours at 80 F. The flour multiplication factor is 4.8 times. This stage promotes yeast gowth.
Stage 2
This is the main stage. It is drier - hydration is 66. Currently, I run it for 24 hours at 82 F. The flour multiplication factor is 12.9. This stage promotes acidity and taste components.
Stage 3
The final stage has the same hydration as the original inoculation - 90 and I currently run it at 86 F for 4 hours. The stages promotes growth again, due to the higher temperature, LB bacteria.
[/quote]

If you don't want to be too technical then you can also do the Detmold 2 stage process, which has a very long first stage and so fits in nicely with a normal timetable - like going to sleep over night rather than feeding the starter!

The best bread-taste is undoubtedly reached with the 3 stage process. It can also help getting a wayward starter back to health.

For more info you can read more here:
http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/index.html

If interested I can also post a recipe, using the Detmold 2 stage sourdough system. I have one which is a typical rye/wheat bread.

[b]"Roggenmischbrot" - Detmold-2-Stage[/b]

Stage1 (Basic sour):
5g ripe rye sourdough,
70g rye flour,
40g water,
Let stand at 24°C for 18 hours.

Stage2 (Full sour):
Add to the Basic sour:
100g rye flour,
130g water.
Let stand at 28°C for 3 hours.

Dough:
Add to the full sour:
200g wheat flour, Type 1050,
120g rye flour,
220g water,
10g salt,
10g fresh yeast (or 1 teaspoon of dried yeast),
Desired dough temperature: 30°C

Bulk Fermentation:
Only about 20 minutes because of the high degree of souring.

Final fermentation: This depends on the ambient temperature and on how active your sourdough
starter was and also on the strength of the wheat flour.
It will take about 1 - 2.5 hours.

Note:
Ingredients for one medium size trial loaf.
Amounts can be doubled or tripled.

[b]"Roggenmischbrot" - Detmold-3-Stage[/b]

Ingredients:
500g whole wheat flour fine,
1000g whole rye flour fine,
980ccm water,
sourdough made with a Detmold-3-Stage process.

Detmold-3-Stage process step 1 step 2 step 3
Starter (from fridge) (g) 10 25 220
rye flour (g) m 10 120 350
water (ccm/ml) 15 75 350
temperature 26° 25° 30°
time in hours (approx) 5 22 3
sourdough yield (minus starter) 25 220 920

Dough:
500g whole wheat flour fine,
520g whole rye flour fine,
920g rye sourdough (see above),
540ccm water (approx),
20g fresh yeast,
30g salt.
= 2530g dough

Bulk Fermentation:
Only about 10 to 20 minutes because of the high degree of souring.

Final fermentation: This depends on the ambient temperature and on how active your sourdough
starter was and also on the strength of the wheat flour.
It will take about 1 - 2.5 hours.

Note:
Seem to be unable to make a table above, so you will have to spread the 3 stages out a bit when you copy the recipe, sorry!