Does anyone have a link to HACCP compliant proving baskets? I know there are plastic proving forms available, but I can't find any on the net.
Second question; how many artisan bakers in Australia are HACCP approved?
If anyone knows I'd appreciate knowing, thanks.
Category:
Replies
HACCP COMPLIANT ARTISAN BAKERS.?..
Let me tell you
The bad news first
Never heard of it when I was in Australia....
I have visited many artisan bakeries there and if you understand HACCP you will penalize their working habits aside from their crude implements which had questionable sanitation
Think about it the starter vat is already full of dough muck , grime etc... some oven peels have splintered ends and the fine wood fibers may even occasionally be found in the bread.
There are oven floor that are not even scrubbed....
I have seen various proofing baskets that are already torn and looks dirty..never seen yet plastic ones used there( or maybe I missed some bakeries?)..dirty bannetons ...
Proofing cloths that are moldy .oh my the list goes on on food safety violations.....
But don't despair
Because.... the good news is that is also true in other parts of the world ....
Dear Chembake,
somehow I have to laugh when I read your words today. It reminds me to my own behavior. When there's is trouble with my wife I'm telling my friends of the thread of world war III
A little other story. Last week a friend visited me. He' is a physician, coming straight out of his treatment room. After friendly shaking hands and hugging he asked me about my sourdough. I opened my fridge and showed him. „Oh awesome, you made it from the scratch?“ He put his contaminated damned fingers in the pot and tasted it! I didn't said a word, only looked out of the window. But...
Sourdough is able to protect itself from plague and cholera. So what?
A real professional keeps his working place always in a state of utmost cleanness. Is it mechanic, a physician, a baker, a whatever. Bio hazard... a chef in his kitchen fears it. He is really responsible for the health of hundreds. The baker has strong oven. His work is always clean in the end. Sterilized similar as it was in an hospitals autoclave for a long time. Ask your friendly authorities!
Just the homebakers view! Cool down old boy
Michael
[quote] Somehow I have to laugh when I read your words today [/quote]
I am not considering hobbyist as my target for my gripes but real artisanal bakeries..that I have witnessed the Violations of the fundamental rules of HACCP
Besides
The OP is asking for real artisanal bakeries and not hobbyists which certainly don't care about HACCP.
Michael you don’t understand the importance of this matter in food processing. do you?
You think that making food in institutional way is a joke?
Supposing in the future you market the fruits of your hobby then you should follow the food safety rules in your food processing.
You don’t have to wait and be confident that sourdough microbes is known to be antagonistic to many pathogens due to the inbuilt bacteriocins.( generated by the lactic bacteria)
Its not only about sterility and heat treatment which will ensure that nor pathogens remains in the dough or batter. It’s much more what HACCP is ..
Every food processing facility is subject to mandatory implementation of HACCP, and artisanal bakeries and other bakery facilities are no exception .
The food safety officer will not buy your idea that the food is cooked anyway so you can be excused. He will have to inspect every detail of your food processing regimen
You are looking for trouble (if you blurt your cockiness but coupled with ignorance s) in front of them( HACCP auditing officers/inspectors).
Its not only about cooking/baking, but every facets of the food manufacturing concern is considered….
Its based on many issues including standards and specifications of materials, strick hygiene implementation, rules and guidelines that are to implemented whenever any food product is to be prepared.. One important aspect is Monitoring that no contamination of any kind should reach the food food before its served to the customer. To ensure that any food processor must be vigilant and follow the stipulated guidelines to the utmost (if not absolute food safety) in his products which must be ingrained in his food processing procedures,
HACCP is widely implemented in industrial bakeries but somehow there are only very very few artisan bakeries that can qualify for such standards.
IIRC one entrepreneur friend of mine in the United States recently got into trouble with the Federal authorities as he refused to implement HACCP in his newly installed bakery business.
After the grace period his shop was padlocked!
His thesis why he refused is
How can homemade and artisanal products be made to follow the strict hygiene and sanitation standards of the large scale industrial bakery when the products anyway are baked in oven, the dough refrigerated and other things blast frozen?
I reminded him that HACCP implementation is a must for any food processing facility regardless of its size. And institutional bakers , including would be bakers( apprenticeships)are even given HACCP and Food safety training.
I know some baking school in down under that is implementing it in their bakery curriculum.
[quote]Sourdough is able to protect itself from plague and cholera. So what? [/quote]
Don’t tell me that you can play games with your health officer and HACCP auditor that the dough or bread and sourdough had its on anti bacterial substance( or bactereocin) to prevent microbial contamination aside from being baked at intense heat in your oven
. So your business is safe….how about other forms of contamination.that can get into your product?
• Do you think that they will tolerate seeing you proof your loaf on torn baskets and mouldy canvass?
• Do you think the will just smile at you if the saw a wood splinter in your bread or the crust tainted by some dirt or specks of paint that flaked off from the ceiling etc?
• Or if they are curious to taste your product and detect some off taste reminiscent of the detergent or bleaching agent they use to clean the utensils?
• Do you think that they will pat you in the back if they say that your fermenting tun looks so “dirty”( or full of starter grime and muck)that it looks it had not been washed for decades?
• Do you think that the will allow you to process your products if they see that your workers are unhygienic in their appearance and working habits; or either one of them is coughing while kneading the dough,,,as you think anyway its baked so no problem if tubercle bacilli contaminates it.
• Do you think that the health office will excuse you for permitting even a doctor to dip his fingers on your food. As he is an expert of health ? Etc..
The title and profession of the violator means nothing if he does not follow the food safety rules of the business…No matter how much he washed up after the medical operation theater, his antics is inexcusable ....
Its certain that if they see any violation you will be given a terse reprimand and slapped a substantial fine and if incindentally you doctor friend is around...he might lose his medical license if his cocky and unsanitary habits are used as evidence by the HACCP inspector.
Therefore bakery business is not a laughing matter now a days Mike…Keep it in mind.
I hope that you got my point here ….no offence intended.by the way…
.
Chembake,
I can't judge your aims here but I hear the melody of your sentences. One thing is for sure. In Europe is a long tradition for small and medium sized enterprises. They offer every kind of sensibel food you can imagine in highest possible quality. Food industry is always trying to displace their smaller competitors. For many years they had no chance to provide the supermarkets with their stuff. Inspite of offering very cheap products customers refused to buy it for a long time. In some parts of Italy it is even hard to find any supermarkets.
A good example: a few years ago big industry made pressure on politics to abolish cheese made from raw milk. As we all know in Europe cheese made with raw milk is most precious cheese in the world. Nobody became ill with these cheese since ages...
The real hygienic disasters came from big business. Every year there is another scandal. Tons of over aged frozen meat in Europe were transported all over our continent, relabeled and sold again. Cattle fed with waste from slaughterhouses became ill with new diseases in Britain, Switzerland, Germany...(mad cow disease) German and Italian wine were sweetened with glycol produced by the more global players . Glycol is chemical antifreeze for automobiles. I'm not an activist on wholesome food or something like that. But I know quite well: it is not the middle sized baker who has ever endangered his clients in history.
Good practice and hygienic standards needs education and supervising by authorities.That is common sense. And hygienic problems grow with the size of an enterprise.
Michael
It means one thing that Europe has not matured enough and still lenient with tainting food with other materials. or done in unsanitary manner..Thats a valid reason why Australia don't want to buy cheese from Europe made with raw milk.
I tell you that in Asia (until now )many countries there are not buying dairy products from EU but only from New Zealand and Australia even if the price is higher if compared to Europe.
You got the point that education is the key to the implementation of good manufacturing practice hygenic standards,etc in food processing but think about the education of most artisan bakers......Many of them are illiterate and don't give a damn about food hazards as they always insist that nobody yet got ill from consuming their products.
They should understand that in whatever food processing endeavor that preoccupies them complacency has no place.Food safety awareness is the keyword here and that is the beginning of the understanding of HACCP . It does not end even if the food is properly cooked as there are other unsafe areas in its preparation that are just ignored or taken for granted.As i related earlier that baking and culinary schools are strictly implmenting the training in that area.
Hobbyist baking is fertile ground for future entrepreneur bakers, but if they don't change their perspective and continue to be complacent and cocky enough to believe that the goods they can produce is far better than what the commercial institution can offer then in the long term; their ingrained habits (including not food safe manufacturing practice) will not make them better food processors than the established institutions ( that they critizise )but stricktly implement the rules in how they manufacture food.
Its not the size of the food business that matters as the food safety rules should remain the same, The customer deserves the same care whether you are selling your home manufactured foodstuff or items from big institutional firms.
Government legislation about food safety will becomer more stringent in years to come and I doubt that Europe will not change if they want their food products to remain competitive in the world market.
The experience of That friend of mine is an eye opener that is not enough that you have the knowhow and skill to run the business but it must be coupled with concern for your customers that the food you produce should strictly follow the rules of food safety and you don't argue with the authorities....
[quote="chem"]HACCP COMPLIANT ARTISAN BAKERS.?..
Let me tell you
The bad news first
Never heard of it when I was in Australia....
I have visited many artisan bakeries there and if you understand HACCP you will penalize their working habits aside from their crude implements which had questionable sanitation
Think about it the starter vat is already full of dough muck , grime etc... some oven peels have splintered ends and the fine wood fibers may even occasionally be found in the bread.[/quote]
chem, I hear what you're saying, but, I'm sure there are HACCP compliant artisans or those in the preliminary stages of approval, nor shouldn't there be. [b]Artisan[/b] isn't synonymous with [b]dirty[/b] or [b]unsafe[/b] or [b]risk[/b]. Artisan bread can be made in a HACCP compliant environment with HACCP compliant methods. There's no [b]"dough muck"[/b] and [b]"grime"[/b] in my bowls and vats!
Your comments are a generalisation of the artisan baking industry. I could also relate many anecdotes of poor food hygiene etc. from industrial bakeries too, I've seen enough of them! However, to generalise on the basis of, your or my, experience by its nature will not verify if there are any HACCP approved artisans in the market.
[quote="chem"]There are oven floor that are not even scrubbed....
I have seen various proofing baskets that are already torn and looks dirty..never seen yet plastic ones used there( or maybe I missed some bakeries?)..dirty bannetons ...
Proofing cloths that are moldy .oh my the list goes on on food safety violations.....
But don't despair
Because.... the good news is that is also true in other parts of the world ....[/quote]
Like you, I know there are HACCP compliance problems in food manufacturing/baking the world over, but to summarise your post, your answer is: "No, I don't know of any HACCP approved artisan bakeries".
Thank you
This is the link to the site in question http://www.poopka.co.uk I am sure
it will solce your problem. I have used it several times. It new but with
amazing features. Look for anything from a flat to a job. Even a date if you
like.
Spammer.
Hey, I actually remember coming across these plastic baskets on the net while looking for something else...
Yes, here's a few links:
http://www.empirebake.net/scripts/prodL ... ategory=17
http://www.chefscorner.com/1/1/4543-wor ... 87142.html
http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=3 ... ufacid=348
Don't know if you're still looking for them...?
Last year I imported plastic bannetons for Fuel Bakery, in Sydney. These are the highest quality German "Thermo" bannetons that are virtually indestructible and dishwasher safe. We (Artisan Baker P/L) have since imported a 2nd batch at the request of Fuel. The head baker of Fuel, Chris, is a good friend of mine. At first he had difficulty with plastic bannetons, but now has developed a satisfactory baking process. Plastic bannetons do not suit all circumstances. For instance, they were trialled at another well known Sydney bakery, and the head baker said that his doughs overheated and sweat too much.
The bakers at Fuel have persevered and altered their technique to suit plastic bannetons. They are used for rye bread and the dough is released from the bannetons several hours before entering the oven (to avoid sweating and sticking to the bannetons). Fuel are very strict on hygiene standards and their perception is that stainless steel and plastic should be used wherever possible. The plastic bannetons will last forever, are dishwasher safe, and as clean as you want them to be...but the dough does sweat and overheating can be a problem...depending on your proofing environment.
Cane bannetons are hygienic and can be legally used in Australia, just as wooden benches can be used to shape doughs. Occasionally a health inspector will say 'oh, we do not want you to use wooden surfaces'. Bakers have successfully argued that wooden surfaces are perfectly acceptable prior to the baking (oven) process. Additionally, there are several examples of food processing, including some varieties of cheese manufacture, where a permeable surface is required to ensure the survival/transmission of yeast/bacteria that are essential to the manufacturing process.
Danubian, we have some plastic bannetons left over from a previous order. Please provide your address and I will send one free of charge. Graham
Thanks, Graham. The plastic banneton arrived in good order.
I'll give it a try this week and next week and post my opinion and perhaps a few pictures also.
we are counting on you Boris, haven't seen your lovely bread for some time!
Graham what about you snapping a loaf or two, get in there and bake one for us mate!
Jeremy
Ah, Jeremy.... I've been so busy after my trip I've hardly even looked at the PC.
I assume you had a good time on your trip?
Excellent! U can read about it on my site, posted lots of stuff! Busy here as well!
Jeremy
[IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_4804.jpg[/IMG]
I've used it a couple of times and found that unless cloth lined it posed dough sticking problems, especially with soft rye doughs, but less so with wheat dough. I now use it lined with cloth which makes it non HACCP compliant. I haven't tried using an oil film without cloths but that's more problematic for other reasons.
My understanding was that the issue of HACCP compliance was not mould but rather an issue of how to eliminate the hazard of wooden splinters entering the dough. I was not aware that bakeries using canvas for couches or bannetons were excluded from HACCP compliance.
A 'carry-over culture' can be considered a part of artisan process in bread making, just as it is in some types of cheese making. And bakers have the added benefit that their creations are sterilised in the baking chamber.
But i am ready to receive more information on this issue. Anyone?
Of course, this doesn't mean the regs can't be changed to accomodate essential steps that on further investigation are found to have no bearing on the food safety of the product. Many regs are written by those who have consulted specialists who may not have considered every implication or unintended consequence of the regulation as it currently may or may not stand.
of the porousness of the cloth lined baskets - cane or cloth lined plastic baskets - appears to be a moot point in this regard since the dough is baked destroying potential hazards. The hazard of physical contamination by cane or wood splinters is an issue and may very well be overcome by the use of clean cloth linings.
However, any HACCP plan would have to spell out any potential hazards with respect to the cloth linings - microorganism contamination - and a control point would need to be documented eg. clean/cleaning cloths, but not necessarily laundered after every use. This would be acceptable and render any potential hazards or regulatory objections void.
Thanks, Graham. It seems you were correct.
Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;}
Hi, you can find this info by using search box in the top of website.
Best regards
Or you also visit this link for more checklist of HACCP
source: HACCP checklist
Best regards
Riviera
in Adelade do artisan bread and are HACCP certified