Bill or anyone try this recipe!

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy

Did this loaf last night, kinda wet dough, but worth it!

First Feeding

Flour 100% 51
water 100% 51
starter 50% 25

Total 127

Second feeding
Flour 100% 127
water 100% 127
starter 100% 127

Total 381

Dough
levain 143% 381

bread flour 100% 267

water 92% 246
salt 4% 10
yeast 1% 2

Ta,
Jeremy

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Replies

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 18

Jeremy that is not the full recipe is it?
There a lots of bits missing.
Could you check it again please?
Will translate tomorrow. just online now and its too late to think for me.

bianchifan's picture
bianchifan 2006 September 19

[quote="Jeremy"]
I will need some help with that, because she uses back ferment(enzyme) and grundansatz(dry sauer?) don't have any ideas?
[/quote]

[url=http://www.wskw.de/vollkorn/baeckerei.php?Thema=Rohstoffe&Ordner=themen/rohstoffe&Text=backferment.txt&UThema=Backferment&T=1]Sekowa Backferment[/url] is a very special dried sourdough.
It's made from wheat, peas and honey, another gluten-free variant is made from maize(corn) instead of wheat.

[i]Grundansatz[/i] is a twice feeded dried Sourdough startet with [i]Backferment[/i].
Doing a sourdough with [i]Backferment[/i] you need both, [i]Grundansatz[/i] and [i]Backferment[/i].

Dough made with [i]Backferment[/i] has very low acetic acid and some people say , the bread is more digestible, lighter, even rye bread.
There are some special whole grain bakeries (Demeter) who will use Backferment only, because they believe in it's skill to destroy the phytin.

...
[quote="carla"]
He puts all the links in and then procrastinates ...
[/quote]

'll quit our friendship, I think
Now it's your turn to translate hehehe..

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 19

So mein freund,
is it possible to adapt this to a normal starter without the backferment? Or should I start drying my own starter, also can backferment be made at home?

Jeremy

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 19

[quote="Jeremy"]
So mein freund,
is it possible to adapt this to a normal starter without the backferment? Or should I start drying my own starter, also can backferment be made at home?
[/quote]

Nah - you couldn't possibly make something so sacred as the backferment at home! Jeremy!!

Just use your own starter. Any wheat sourdough will give very much the same result.

Now to translating the recipe.

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 19

Hi Carla
It's funny my sister had that sekowa stuff at her home, and I had seen it before on the internet, is it real common to use those products rather than make your own levain?

By the way thanks!
Jeremy

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 19

[b]Ingredients:[/b]
500g wheat finely milled (Schrot = a fine semolina-like grade of wholemeal flour),
500g rye as above,
1-2 Teasp Caraway seeds (whole or ground),
18-20g Salt.

[b]Preferment:[/b]
20g (=2 heaped teaspoons) Grundansatz (see bianchis explanation),
3g (=1 teaspoon) Spezila Backferment granules,
200g wheat finely milled (see above),
200g rye as above,
1-2 Teasp caraway seeds (whole or ground), mix with the flours,
400ml water.

Mix Grundansatz und granules in a little of the water,
add remaining water and mix thoroughly with the flours and caraway.
Let stand covered at 23-25*C for at least 12 hours.

[b]Dough:[/b]
Add to the fully soured preferment the remainder of the ingredients, being:
300g wheat finely milled (Schrot = a fine semolina-type grade of wholemeal flour),
300g rye as above,
18-20g salt,
approx. 350ml of water.
The water should be up to 60 degrees C warm 9not warmer), so that the kneaded dough will have 30 degrees C when finished. The dough should be "medium". (Which obviously means not too wet but also not too dry)

Rest, covered, for 40-50 minutes.
Once the dough is nice and bubbly, divide, shape put into warm greased tins or floured bannetons.

Let rise, covered, for another 30-40 minutes.
Heat the oven to 220*C.
Moisten the top of the bread and put into the pre-heated oven with lots of steam.

Bake at 220*C for approx. 1 hour.
The bread should be nice and brown.

Footnote:
If you have questions check chapter D, page 49, how to make bread/dough.

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 19

[quote="Jeremy"]
is it real common to use those products rather than make your own levain?
[/quote]

Well I guess when the big home-baking madness started again in the mid-seventies most people (including me) hadn't got a clue how to bake with sourdough any more except some of the oldfashioned bakers. (I solved the problem by getting some old books via interloan which were used some 80 years ago to train bakers apprentices in Germany).

So this Backferment seemed to fill an obvious gap and it also has a bit of a "religious" background. Not as in big world-religions, but as in people "believing" that this so good and healthy.
One of the reasons it got off the ground so good is that soon after the wholemeal and flourmill generation started heading for the good life on the farms, it became obvious that a lot of people got stomach problems from all the wholemeal!!

Backferment people have said that the "bad" phytins will be destroyed by their stuff. So a lot of the Rudolph-Steiner-Believers (which I think has unfortunately degraded to a religion instead of a living changing system!) will only use this stuff rather than a normal sourdough.

You will see that I use the word "religion" here as in "believing" - which is for me the opposite of "knowing". Once you know - you won't have to (blindly) believe any more.
However to get to know something you will first have to "believe" in some sort of hypothesis until you can then figure out if it is true or not.

I hope you understand what I mean Jeremy. (I remember reading about your dilemma in the wonderful restaurant without menu where you eat what you are served. Have wondered if you came to a conclusion about your thoughts there?)

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 19

Carl,
yeah I undestand, when I grew up in Amerca having come from europe, it was a challenge to find good healthy food, you were hard pressed to find good vegetables that were standard in France an Germany where we lived! My Mother made do and we ate very well, she used to even have aquiche business for awhile, I really hated the smell though! Here there was a hippi culture who were labeled granola munching birkebstock types, they are now the babyboomers who are all capatalists, so now there is a new resurgence of a counter culture here, I think Ifall in line of a yuppie, but still with hippie feelings, I love to bake bread that is why I sometimes yearn to go back to Europe to live, just that I am so american too, very hard to give up things like rock, the blues, going to Colorad, Vermont, ther is beauty and there is ugliness here, I should know I live in NYC!
So to get back to the sourdough, could you indicate how I would substitute those dry grundansatz and backferment in the recipe, it's weird when I was typing the recipe the words seem so familiar, I left Europe when I was 41/2, but lived ther in the army for 3 as well I visit my sister in Switzerland, boy now that is a tough language!

As for the restaurant, was that the one in Paris?

Jeremy

bianchifan's picture
bianchifan 2006 September 19

[quote="Jeremy"]
is it possible to adapt this to a normal starter without the backferment?
[/quote]
You may try.., as carla told above you can use a wheat starter.
Perhaps by adding a teaspoon honey, best cold hurled.
Make sourdough as described with wheat and rye in equal parts, same way as bill44 .
The "Backferment" uses the ferments of the bees, so you need a honey with this ferments still alive.

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 19

[quote="Jeremy"]
So to get back to the sourdough, could you indicate how I would substitute those dry grundansatz and backferment in the recipe.
[/quote]
I guess to do the real thing you have to order some in Germany. I haven't found a stockist in the USA, but try [url=http://www.newstartcenter.biz/oxid.php/sid/2c4dbc2eca0073ce1ff3637a93f55a7d/cl/details/anid/-1727438983/tpl/-/lang/1/listtype/list][b]this outfit here[/b][/url] it seems you can order it from anywhere on earth!

Here in NZ we have a German Baker, [url=http://www.breadman.co.nz/aboutus.htm][b]the Breadman,[/b][/url] who uses it in his bakery!

The advantage of the Backferment is that you can bake bread from any flours you like. Be it rye, wheat or any of the flours that couldn't be made into bread in any other way like rice, corn or buckwheat. Nice glutenfree loaves can obviously be baked with it. I haven't tried it myself apart from about 25 years ago as a trial. I liked my heavy rye sourdough bread better so have never again bothered with it.

[quote="Jeremy"]
As for the restaurant, was that the one in Paris?
[/quote]
Urasawa

[quote="bianchifan"]
Perhaps by adding a teaspoon honey, best [b]cold hurled.[/b]The "Backferment" uses the ferments of the bees, so you need a honey with this ferments still alive.
[/quote]
Trying to imagine how to keep cool while hurling the honeyframes...
I think what he wanted to say is: use raw honey which hasn't been heat treated, so the enzymes are still active.

Maedi's picture
Maedi 2006 September 20

[quote]
I am editing another interview for my site and just posting as directly as I can, Maedi is the maintenance man, he will tell me how I am sure :Wink:
[/quote]

What do you want to know Jeremy?

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 20

I tried to explain to him how to hide a link so he is not getting the whole threads out of shape.
We all have to scroll now because of his long links.
But obviously he would like to hear it from you Maedi!

Maedi's picture
Maedi 2006 September 20

Hehe, my screens so wide that Jeremy's links don't affect me.

Jeremy, How can you not know how to make a link with BBCode?

It's a simple format.... [url=www.sourdough.com.au]A good little Sourdough Site[/url]

I don't know what else to say. Happy wishes for the rest of the day.

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 21

Jeremy - here is your example:

Also I purchased a book from [url=http://www.amazon.de/Getreidearten-Buchweizen-Spezial-Backferment-Roggen-Gerste/dp/3922290027/sr=1-1/qid=1158449826/ref=sr_1_1/302-7397387-0164026?ie=UTF8&s=books][b]Ada Pokorny[/b][/url]

Now click on "quote" on the top right of this post and when it opens you can see exactly how I have done it.

It took me months to understand it - but then I finally found one in a quote and I could see the whole lot and then it seemed very easy.

And if you look above this little square you are reading in now (once opened with "quote") you can see all those lovely tabs at the top which you can use:

[b]B[/b] for bold
or "u" [u]for underlined[/u]

and so on...

We will make an expert out of you in no time

coelecanth 2006 October 20

I usually try to make the sponge/ expanded starter (to the weight required) the night before baking day in the same container (usually a mixing bowl) as I am going to make the final dough in. This way it is possible not to end up with too much wastage. I have been weighing this mix before I make the dough up, and I usually don't find I lose much, if any, weight.
I hope this is not (sourdough) heresy.

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 21

[quote="carla"]
Jeremy - here is your example:

Also I purchased a book from [url=http://www.amazon.de/Getreidearten-Buchweizen-Spezial-Backferment-Roggen-Gerste/dp/3922290027/sr=1-1/qid=1158449826/ref=sr_1_1/302-7397387-0164026?ie=UTF8&s=books][b]Ada Pokorny[/b][/url]

Now click on "quote" on the top right of this post and when it opens you can see exactly how I have done it.

It took me months to understand it - but then I finally found one in a quote and I could see the whole lot and then it seemed very easy.

And if you look above this little square you are reading in now (once opened with "quote") you can see all those lovely tabs at the top which you can use:

[b]B[/b] for bold
or "u" [u]for underlined[/u]

and so on...

We will make an expert out of you in no time
[/quote]

Uh what?
I just finished a 13 hour shift and I rode 16 miles back in forth through the UN traffic sucking exhaust from taxis and avoiding stupid pedestrians!

Kidding thanks, just once in a while I will have to be reminded to behave and conform to the forum standards!

Jeremy

TeckPoh's picture
TeckPoh 2006 October 21

Welcome, coelecanth!

How interesting. Never thought of doing that. Tks for sharing. It's not wastage I'm bothered about, this way it's less one item to wash.

bianchifan's picture
bianchifan 2006 September 21

Hi Jeremy,

it's quite easy and you mustn't invest much time.
For example, URL = "http://www.stirthepots.com"
1. Type "Stir the Pots"
2. Mark the typed expression
3. Click the button "URL" above
4. You receive a [url]Stir the Pots[/url]
5 Now you edit the left url expression by inserting a"=" plus the ULR
6.Result ["url=http://www.stirthepots.com"]Stir the Pots[/url]

Doing as described without quotes:

[url=http://www.stirthepots.com]Stir the Pots[/url]

will last about 2 to 10 seconds, depending on training and keyboard virtuosity, you spend most time for thinking and typing the short phrase

happy riding

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 21

[quote="Jeremy"]
I just finished a 13 hour shift and I rode 16 miles back in forth through the UN traffic sucking exhaust from taxis and avoiding stupid pedestrians!
[/quote]

Was the 13hour shift in your very elusive club of "gentlemen"??

And bianchifan my dear - "riding" in the above context is happening in a CAR not on a HORSE

matthew 2006 September 21

[quote="carla"]
[quote="Jeremy"]I just finished a 13 hour shift and I rode 16 miles back in forth through the UN traffic sucking exhaust from taxis and avoiding stupid pedestrians!
[/quote]

Was the 13hour shift in your very elusive club of "gentlemen"??

And bianchifan my dear - "riding" in the above context is happening in a CAR not on a HORSE [/quote]

In fact I believe Jeremy is one of a very endangered species, a bicycle rider in NY. Hence, the "sucking exhaust"comment.

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 22

[quote="bianchifan"]
I'm jaust kind of sad, carla,
I thought of this..
[quote="matthew"]a bicycle rider in NY
[/quote]
perhaps on a Gios [/quote]

Don't be sad bianchifan - maybe you are right (most likely you are) -
and I am wrongly assuming!

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 22

Wow this thread was generated by Bill's Levain from Gorokan!

It's not my old Gios Torino, it's my hot rodding Fuji Team bike that carry's me to my exclusive "Gentlemens" city club!

I suck the nasty air of NY in my lungs day in and day out, just for some sanity speed and IPod induced cycling

Look Out!

Jeremy

SourDom 2006 September 23

[quote="Bill44"]
The point I am making is that with 250g of ingredients in the first stage it is completely impossible to end up with 250g of starter for the second stage. This is due to the gas generated in the fermentation process, which is then lost. The loss is quite considerable, and I have had thoughts of doing an experiment to demonstrate just how much weight is lost.
I am raising this issue because, even though the recipe obviously works done as written, if someone actually used a full 250g of starter in the second stage they may end up with a less than intended result due to faster proofing times or some other factor.
[/quote]

Interesting point that you make Bill. However in my kitchen at least the amount of starter weight lost seems to be minimal.
With 200g of starter (100g flour, 100g water, and a bit of starter left in the jar from the previous refreshment), the weight of the jar and starter decreased by only 2g after more than 24 hours. (Total weight of jar 580g before, 578g the next day)

This amounts to ~1% of starter weight, and in a recipe that uses <50% starter, the overall difference in bakers percentage terms would be <0.5% (ie you probably wouldn't notice it).

On the other hand there is another factor that reduces the actual amount of starter that is yielded from a refreshment: the sticking to the side of the jar effect. In the above example, when I add 200g of flour and 200g water to perhaps 10g mother starter, I usually can only easily get about 180g of starter to use. The rest hides in corners of the starter jar, and needs serious coaxing to emerge.
This effect could be more significant in terms of a recipe.

cheers
Dom

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 16

Hi Jeremy
Would like to try your bread and just to make sure I got it right I have written up the ingreds in grams. Hope that is right? Questions below

First Feeding:
Starter 25g
Flour 51g
Water 51g
Total 127g
[color=red]How long do you leave this at what temp?[/color]

Second feeding:
add:
Flour 127g
Water 127g
Total 381g
[color=red]How long do you leave this at what temp?[/color]
Dough:
Levain 381g
Bread flour 267g
Water 246g
Salt 10g
Yeast 2g

[color=red]Dry yeast or fresh yeast?[/color]

Thanks!

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 16

Ummm, caught me off guard Carla!
Ummmmmm....the first feeding the mornig before the next day's bake 8 to 16 hours?
I don't really do a room temp thing, I sort of judge the levain by how it looks, not so scientific, although it varies on the weather and where you are!
Next feed that eveningbefore the next morning bake!
Next day bake day
Sometimes I don't use the yeast especially if it's the Bill sour I use!
though if yours acts sluggish you can use either dry or fresh, just cut the dry in half ! So in this case it's a miniscule pinch!

Send us your results and take a pic, were voyeurs, why do you think we get all that smutty spam!

Jeremy

Bill44's picture
Bill44 2006 September 16

Sorry Jeremy, it's against company policy to do bread with commercial yeast.

Point to note, I have seen a lot of recipes that start out like yours. eg:-
1st stage starter
50g Starter
100g Water
100g Flour
250 TOTAL

2nd stage dough
250g starter
etc
etc.

The point I am making is that with 250g of ingredients in the first stage it is completely impossible to end up with 250g of starter for the second stage. This is due to the gas generated in the fermentation process, which is then lost. The loss is quite considerable, and I have had thoughts of doing an experiment to demonstrate just how much weight is lost.
I am raising this issue because, even though the recipe obviously works done as written, if someone actually used a full 250g of starter in the second stage they may end up with a less than intended result due to faster proofing times or some other factor.

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 16

Uh - oh - you experts thrash it out yes?
And then tell me the results please?

I am new to wheat sourdough as you know. In fact it has been almost forgotten in Germany until the renaissance some 20 years ago when people started baking their own breads rather than buy the stuff they sold under that name in the shops...

My usual is a nice heavy rye bread with a rye sourdough, baked in a tin - but since I've discovered that the english speaking world makes nearly only wheat sourdoughs I had to try this too - of course.

So for the voyeurs here is a pic of my first ever trial with wheat:

[img]http://sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/4690-2/DSCN1681F.jpg[/img]

TeckPoh's picture
TeckPoh 2006 September 16

Carla...don't tease with such an itsy bitsy pic. It looks terrific but I'd prefer to admire it in full size glory.

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 16

Well TP I was shocked myself why it went so small when I uploaded it.
I mean the picture - not the bread!!
Do you think I did something wrong and its uploaded just thumbprints??

TeckPoh's picture
TeckPoh 2006 September 16

That's probably what happened, Carla. You have to click on your smaller pic to get the bigger pic and copy that location's url.

Waiting in anticipation....

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 16

Thanks TP for the tip-off!
It tasted very good, but am not happy with the flatness yet.
I have formed it the way I would a yeast dough or a hybrid.
But plain sourdough and wheat is a completely different matter!
So I will have to learn the folding and stretching thingi I think.
Also found it funny how the big holes were distributed!

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 16

Well - I think "nice" is nice of you.
But the loaf needs to get a better shape!

In fact Number two which I put up this afternoon looks a bit better already:

[img]http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/4692-3/DSCN1747F.jpg[/img]

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 16

Yeah there you go! It's a tricky thing it has it's own mind and wants to get away from you!

Go Carla!
I actually need some German translation for recipes I found through Monsieur Bianchi! How bout it?

Jeremy

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 17

[quote="Jeremy"]
I actually need some German translation for recipes I found through Monsieur Bianchi! How bout it?
[/quote]

Yeah - I knew that would be coming Jeremy.
He puts all the links in and then procrastinates ...
I told him that he would have to translate heaps if he does that

You can put them up Jeremy and I will do my best to translate.
But no guarantee given that my NZ english will work with your American expressions.
There could be some very interesting bakes coming up!!
Maybe not so interesting as if bianchifan translates them though

Will check in later today and see what you have come up with.
Shall we open an English-German bread recipe section?

You are not by any chance after [url=http://www.der-sauerteig.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1661&sid=e9d06c38014a95675bf5de2fae4ef8fe][b]this recipe[/b][/url] Jeremy

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 17

I got that recipe and one other translated by Bianchimanner, good sport that he is! As well I bounced one to my amigo in Aachen http://www.idunno.de/
"shout out" for Nils, an awesome German baker who doesn''t like beer! Still he has a cool site and I will try to learn some German again since I forgot when moving to America! My French and Spanish are better!
We should have a German section, it's so underrated and so not done here, fear of rye I think?
I posted a video clip of a neigbor of my sister making bread in her house
Switzerland where my sister lives, check it out! It's http://sourdough.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=446

Also I purchased a book from Ada Pokorny [url]http://www.amazon.de/Getreidearten-Buchweizen-Spezial-Backferment-Roggen-Gerste/dp/3922290027/sr=1-1/qid=1158449826/ref=sr_1_1/302-7397387-0164026?ie=UTF8&s=books[/url]
I will need some help with that, because she uses back ferment(enzyme) and grundansatz(dry sauer?) don't have any ideas? I may send this back to my sister as a present, now that she has a stein backofen!

Tchuß!

carla's picture
carla 2006 September 17

[quote="Jeremy"]
We should have a German section, it's so underrated and so not done here, fear of rye I think?

Also I purchased a book from [url=http://www.amazon.de/Getreidearten-Buchweizen-Spezial-Backferment-Roggen-Gerste/dp/3922290027/sr=1-1/qid=1158449826/ref=sr_1_1/302-7397387-0164026?ie=UTF8&s=books][b]Ada Pokorny[/b][/url]
I will need some help with that, because she uses back ferment(enzyme) and grundansatz(dry sauer?) don't have any ideas? I may send this back to my sister as a present, now that she has a stein backofen!
[/quote]

Backferment is like a dried sourdough, although the people selling it would disagree entirely. So you have to either buy the real thing in small packets or just substitute your starter.

Anstellgut is the starter you keep in your fridge - the part that you take off before you bake.
When you add water and flour for the first time the result is called Anfrischsauer.
The second time it is called Grundsauer.
And the third time it is called Vollsauer.
These are the terms used in the 3stage Detmold process.
From the Vollsauer you take a bit away as your starter and keep it in the fridge for the next round of baking. Then you add your flour/salt-mix and the water and make a bread.

I guess "Grundansatz" is a locally different term for Anstellgut. But I could be wrong. If you tell me the recipe then I can have a look. It will become clear in the context of the recipe what she means.

P.S.: You have done it again with your long url Jeremy.
Have a look how I hid it. It is much shorter and doesn't spread the whole thread out!

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 17

Carla,
I am editing another interview for my site and just posting as directly as I can, Maedi is the maintenance man, he will tell me how I am sure (cheers mate and a halo to the "old" man)
I knew most of that stuff you posted as well from my friend Nils in Aachens site he did a nice calculator for detmold and well just see his site!
I will send a copy of the Ada Pokorny rezepte now!

Jeremy

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy 2006 September 18

hier ist es Carla,
Zutaten 500g Weizenfeinschrot, 500g roggenfeinschrot, 1-2 TL
kummel(ganz oder gemahlen), 18-20g Salz

1.Vorteig
20g Grundansatz(2gehaufte TL)
3g Spezila backferment granualt(1 leicht gehaufter TL)
200g Weizenfeinschrot
200Roggenfeinschrot
1-2 TL kummel (ganz oder gemahlen), unter schrot mischen
400ccm wasser

Grundansatz und granukat in kleinem teil des abgemessenen wassers
auflossen, restliches wasswe dazugeben und mit schrot und kummel grundlich vermegen,
Mindestens 12 stunden bei 23-25 c bedect stehen lassen.

2 Haupteig:Dem gut ausgereiften vorteig zugufen
300g Weizefeinschrot
300g Roggenfeinschrot
18-20g salz
ungelfahr 350ccm wasser, so warm (bis 60c),dass der durchgeknetete mittlefeste teig30c aufweist.
Bedeckt 40-50 minuten stehen lassen,Wenn der teig gut gelockert ist,
in stucke teilen,bearbeiten,formen und in warme,gefettete backkasten oder ausgestreute Garkorbrochen legen.
Bedeckt 30-40 minuten stehen lassen die gut aufgegangenen teigstucke and deroberflache befeuchten und in den vorgeheitzen backofen schieben.Fur ausreichend wasserdampf sorgen!

Backtempratur: 220c. Backzeit:1 stunde
Die Brote stollengut gebraunt sein.
Ammerkung: bei Fragen siehe Kapitel D, Abschnitt "brotb S. 49ereitung

Whew I typed all out easier than scanning!
Danke!
Jeremy

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