Yup...i will post photos this weekend. I have an online album called "bread porn"!! hahaha.
Cant wait to hear how the 'adopted family' turns out!
My starter was given to me by a close mate, and he got it from someone else. I have recently adopted-out some of mine to a friend, (a virgin baker!) and so the cycle continues!
Well, I made the slightly difficult decision 4 days ago to throw out my doughball and liquid starter and begin again. The liquid starter had been struggling along for 2 months and the doughball for 1 - but neither was looking like any activity was to be forthcoming, so decided it was time to let go of hope and expectation and start again!
I had been using fine, processed rye flour, and have to conclude that it was a poor choice. Organic wholemeal rye was not available in the store I routinely go to for my grains, and I guess I was too lazy to search further afield for the good stuff.
Recent posts on this thread from experienced sourdough specialists Graham and TeckPoh, who indicated that they use only best quality organic whole-grain flours in their starters and breadmaking, turned the light on.
Baking your own bread is all about quality - why would you wilfully begin with starter fashioned from inferior grain? Shoulda thought thangs out a little more carefully instead of rushing in and settling for the first flour I could get my hands on. O the folly of seeking instant gratification. And in the end, here I sit entirely ungratified, with 2 months of failed starters in the compost! Duh.
So, humbled and repentant, I hit the web and found an excellent little organic produce store just down the road (for interested Perth readers, Organic On Charles , Shop 7, 299 Charles Street North Perth). They have great quality organic flours at prices I think are quite reasonable - eg: I bought some local rye and wholemeal wheat for $3.22 per kilo, sourced from an organic producer in the South-West of WA (Edenvale, I think...Eden Valley, perhaps?). Anyway...
I am now 4 days into a new doughball of organic rye as per Graham's instructions in this thread, and 3 days into a new liquid starter (wholemeal flour/rye mix - for this one, I am following the instructions on the home page of this great site). Feeling MUCH more optimistic now.
Also, the organic whole-grain flours are SO much more pleasant to work with. The highly processed rye I was using before was like sticky plasticine - a bugger to mix with water, and cleaning the containers and stirring spoons afterwards was a real trial.
So, I've given ground to make ground. And so glad to now be using flours of real quality. Thank you for the wisdom and inspiration Graham and TeckPoh!
...let's keep our fingers crossed with your latest endeavour, RnR! You're one up on me...I've yet to make mine from scratch. Sending positive vibes over your way....
and, yes, sirrreeee, Gabby's breads are not only fabulous, there's such a great variety. Yumyumyumyumyum. You've started posting some in the gallery here, I hope?
Ross and Annie it is such a shame that good flour is hard to come by and/or expensive. I expect that most flour has the nutrient to sustain wild yeast of some sort...but from Ross's experiment it appears that not all flour contains wild yeast and/or there is potential for chemicals in non-organic flour to suppress wild yeast activity.
It is a good thing that we are forced to use clean, nutrient-rich flour to make sourdough! This morning I came accross an article that talks about the use of nutrient-rich ancient grains in the making of gluten-free bread, rather than the typical potato flour, guar gum (etc) mix. It is an industrially focused article...but has some very good points and shows that even the industrials are aware that pasty, refined flours have there limitations.
If you can get hold of any decent grain...grain that sprouts...then there is no reason why you can't experiment with planting that in your garden. A few months ago I approached a farmer and got them interested in growing grain. They asked for a small grain sample and were going to see how viable it was on their farm...simply by trialing it in their kitchen vegy garden.
My point is that we don't have to put up with commercial, powdery junk...at least to make our starters from. It only takes a small amount of crushed or rolled grain to make a starter. A home mill is great, but simple hand-driven solutions are also available, as well as mini-mill attachments for kitchen mixers.
There are several bakeries in Sydney that use Organic starters to rise dough made with chemically grown/stored baker's flour. In Sydney this is inexcusable because we have access to great Organic flour...but in other places it is obviously an option that needs to be considered.
VERY interesting article, Graham - thanks for the link.
Whooa - planting your own backyard grain crops...now that's outta left field!
I recall speaking with an elderly sea-changer in Denmark (WA, not Scandinavia) in the 90s, who was raving about the flavour of the bread his wife baked from their home-milled home-grown wheat and thinking then how satisfying (and healthy!) it must be harvesting and milling your own grain for bread. I'd forgotten about that conversation until your post above.
We got rid of all our useless lawn 5 years ago and turned our backyard
over to organic vege growing (anyone interested, see my blogs on this here and here and here), so your suggestion is surely viable. The
idea of making starters/bread from your own grain is thrilling to me,
but with good organic grain flours available locally, I guess it's a matter
of prioritising. We have only a small suburban backyard, and don't have
enough space for all the veges we would like to grow; growing grain would eat into this space. Nevertheless,
you've certainly got me thinking (no mean feat, some might unkindly
claim).
Wonder how wheat or other grains would go in a topical environment like Bali? Home-grown could be a way to cut down some of the expense of getting on to quality flour for people like Annie... but aren't grains vulnerable to a variety of fungi, rust etc in moist tropical climates? Always worth trying new things, though.
Well, it has now been 1 week since TeckPoh sent me some of baby to adopt (yep, I mean sourdough starter). It
came beautifully packed in a zip-lock bag & plastic film wrap which
I put all of into a clean glass jar. There was about 1tablespoon of
starter. I let it sit in water to cover, to dissolve for 2hrs then rinsed all her baby carefully off into the jar. I
then fed it with 1 tablespoon of (the only flour i have) 'imported
organic rye' from Oz + 1 tablespoon of filtered water. It sat on the
kitchen bench at 26*c for 24hrs until I fed it again the next morning.
I had approx 1/2cup of starter. Next day I discarded 1/2 (used it in a
conventional bread, not sourdough as the flour is too expensive to
compost!) and fed again with 1T of flour & 1 of water. After
chatting with TP, I think I had a mix that was too wet. TP's advice was
it "..needs to be stiff enough for the bubbles to hold.." Sounded very
sensible to me. I do not have any scales for weighing so need to go on
intuition & eye ;) TP also said because our temperatures here in
Bali are 26-28* every day, maybe it would be good to keep it in the
fridge if I do not want it to be too 'sour'. Today (Saturday) I
took it out in the morning, discarded 1/2 & let it sit on the bench
for the day as it seemed a bit too cold & the few bubbles that had
appeared the day before were ?a bit less. It smells OK and has not
separated or gone funny looking or smelling so will keep this regeme up
for the next week & we will see. I am more worried that instead of being a 'good adoptive mum' I might have killed her baby. Fingers xed that is not the case! After
reading Graham's post about finding alternative, unprocessed grains, I
wonder if I used some ripe rice from the sawa (rice paddy) next to our
home, if this would be an alternative for getting a starter to spring
into action. I am sure that the expensive flour I bought is 'lifeless',
& despite an active starter from TP, there may not be enough
'goodies' in it to sustain life. Maybe I am too impatient but................ Annie
TP is your midwife for this one...but I would look at getting your new starter out of the fridge for about 8 hours of the day. I'm guessing your fridge is around 4C, which will considerably reduce the potential activity of your starter.
Letting the starter go through a range of temperatures between fridge and room temperature should be of benefit and (hopefully) get your brew working enough to need feeding every 24 hours. But please give more weight to TP's words on this because it is her culture and she will know more about its behaviour...particularly in your climate.
Using local rice sounds like a good idea...possibly as a proportion of your flour, and not entirely, at least at first. You could also make a seperate brew just with rice to compare with your rye/rice mix.
I can't tell you much about rice plucked from a paddy field...finally you have access to grain that we don't have in this part of Australia (cold and dry, S.E Tasmania).
Was out this evening. Sorry, Annie, I should have given you more detailed instructions.
OK...this is what I do. Since I do not bake sourdough on a weekly basis, I keep my starter in the fridge (2 or 3 small jars of it...some people love to keep baby jars).
1. I start to refresh my (liquid) starter the morning before I make the bread if it's a straight dough recipe. If it requires a preferment, I give it one more day's grace.
2. After I feed it the 1st time, which is like 1T starter with half C flour and around 1/4 C water, I may not see much action, just tiny bubbles.
3. Even so, after 8 hours, I feed it again, this time with close to 1 C flour and 3/4 C water. I do not like to throw batter away. I leave it for around 4 hours in our room temp, which will see it double (my starter's mature peak), then stick it in the fridge for a cool rest before the next day's action.
4. The next morning, I either use this starter to make bread, or, if the starter had been left in the fridge unfed for more than 2 weeks, I give it one more feed, adding another C flour and 3/4 C water. This usually brings it up to spunky form, peaking more than double in sometimes less than 3 hours. I must confess I hardly weigh feeds, doing everything by feel....bad habit..but looks like this method will work fine for you since you don't have a scale. But...but, a scale is an extremely useful tool to get most recipes right and we want to be professional. ;)
5. Having said I don't throw any starter along the way, I'd like to add that this perhaps work for me because this is an established starter. Since this thread is about 1st home starter, the throwing away part is necessary, because you're only making a total of a cup or little more, whereas, my 3 total feeds is just nice for making my bread plus some to keep in the fridge.
I know the impatient feeling, Annie. It took me a whole fumbling week to revive Jack's starter. Please don't fret. Know that I'm always ready to send you more, but, I think it's fine. I won't be in much tomorrow but I'll check bubba's progress when I'm back, because I just bought some rye flour today to send off to you on Monday. I could throw in some more starter to go with that. No problemo.
to provide some comfort for folk that cannot easily source/afford fancy flour. I'm a relative n00b who is making tasty bread with mainstream stuff that I buy from the local bakery.
At last, I have a liquid starter that looks bubbily healthy and active, and is doubling in size between daily feeds. The first promising signs of life were on Day 9 of my new starter, for which I have been using only organic wheat and rye flours with filtered water in the proportions recommended in the starter instructions on the home page of this great site. Today is Day 11 and the mix is looking very thick and moussey and full of bubbles. I'm chuffed!
So, on to a new stage, and hence a couple of new questions (you've had a good break from me, Graham, so hopefully your instructional batteries are recharged!):
1. My sourdough recipe book requires the starter quantity used in most recipes to be around 200gm, but my current starter is only about 100gm. What is the recommended way to increase the amount of starter, please? Do I just not throw any out and add the usual 70gm flour + 30gm rye + 100gm water? This would make the quantity up to 200gm, or thereabouts. (And I know I need to be sure not to use it all up in the bread recipe to make sure I still have a starter).
2. When is the optimum time to start using the starter? Not just after feeding it, I assume. I would have thought towards the time it is usually due for a feed (but before feeding it)?
Cheers all Ross
PS: Thanks for your post, jas. You and others here have given me confidence to push ahead, when it seemed I was never going to get a good starter happening. It so happens that my change to good quality organic flour brought on an active starter when the VERY processed rye I was using before did not, but it's interesting that you have had plenty of success with "ordinary" flours. Will be consulting your blog posts when it comes time to actually bake my first loaf.
PPS: I made some chapatis out of the starter toss-out last night. Just did it by instinct, until the texture of the dough seemed right (I often make chapatis, so am used to the process). Added a cup or so of starter to my usual atta flour and teaspoon of olive oil, then added water until "right". I am thrilled to report that the chapatis turned out to be the BEST I have ever made. Added dimension of flavour, lighter, plus they developed a lovely crispness on the outside while staying soft in the middle. A most encouraging sourdough debut!
I feel chuffed for you & hope that there is hope for me too ! I am still trying to keep the 'baby' TP sent me alive & have also been loathe to throw out any starter so..........now inspired to try the chapati's. Do you have a receipe? How do U cok them? Dry pan/stove flame/oven??? Love to hear your thoughts ANNIE
that I'd like give you my unsolicited 2 sen (which amounts to much less in your currency).
[quote=rossnroller]
[snip]....
1. My sourdough recipe book requires the starter quantity used in most recipes to be around 200gm, but my current starter is only about 100gm. What is the recommended way to increase the amount of starter, please? Do I just not throw any out and add the usual 70gm flour + 30gm rye + 100gm water? This would make the quantity up to 200gm, or thereabouts. (And I know I need to be sure not to use it all up in the bread recipe to make sure I still have a starter).I
I'd go with topping it up, like you were thinking, with 70g flour, 30g rye, 100g water...which...*cough* if added to your current 100g amount to close to 300g. This leaves you plenty for future generations.
2. When is the optimum time to start using the starter? Not just after feeding it, I assume. I would have thought towards the time it is usually due for a feed (but before feeding it)?
Nursing your baby to bubbly life, you would have been able to gauge how long it takes your starter to peak. Mixing your dough plus or minus half an hour won't hurt. Er...from my experience, at least.
All the best, RnR...we'll want pix!
Cheers all Ross
[snip]...
PPS: I made some chapatis out of the starter toss-out last night. Just did it by instinct, until the texture of the dough seemed right (I often make chapatis, so am used to the process). Added a cup or so of starter to my usual atta flour and teaspoon of olive oil, then added water until "right". I am thrilled to report that the chapatis turned out to be the BEST I have ever made. Added dimension of flavour, lighter, plus they developed a lovely crispness on the outside while staying soft in the middle. A most encouraging sourdough debut!
What a great idea! I love making my own chapatis too, but, have never added any starter into it. Thanks!
Hi Ross...that really is brilliant news that your starter is now bubbling away. PHEW! What a ride. Can any of us say for sure that it was de-natured flour that stopped the first brew from becoming active? Personally I blame the flour!
TP's feeding comment above sounds good to me. Her point about using experience to guage when your starter is peaking is basically the reality of how most bakers learn to manage their starter.
Some bakers like to use their starter when the dough has expanded to maximum volume...and guage this by the shape of the top of the dough...if it has started to fall then you have just missed the peak! The physical peak of a starter will vary depending on factors that include hydration and how long the starter was mixed for.
For instance some bakers mix their starter in a dough mixer and the starter looks just like bread dough. While other bakers prefer a quickly incorporated soup. I would expect the fermentation characteristics of these starters to be different when the dough physically peaks...but don't have any specific data to say what the precise differences would be.
It also depends on what a baker means when the say 'the peak'. Is it when the dough has the most micro-organisms that are useful to raise the next dough? Or when acidity levels are at the perfect level to condition and make extensible the new dough? And what about the breaking down of the flour to gain access to previously inaccessible nutrients, or to reduce the potential harmfull effects of overly powerful proteins or simplified starches?
I don't mean to get all complicated about this matter. Rather I'm suggesting that becasue there are so many potential considerations and variables that the best approach is to use intuition (based on experience and information from others) and in particular your own senses...does my dough/bread look/tast/smell better because I used a more mature starter...or was it better the other day when I took it early?...etc.
Extreme examples of technically 'getting it perfect' exist and (IMO) belong in industrial baking circles. I visit the city regularly and go on a bread tour with one of my baker friends....we have a bit of fun walking around town and looking/tasting what is on offer. The consistently most unappealing bread comes from a highly technical process that has evolved from an 'absolute' knowledge of fermentation behaviour (formed dough is risen and held in suspension at 2C for about 6 weeks)....making it possible to 'bake on demand' and reduce wastage problems.
That is an extreme...I know. We do need to be able to make informed choices but it gets a bit crazy when the technical completely manages how the baker bakes. I think that is why bread machines can be so frustrating and have a hard time with sourdough (you have to give the technition a long holiday to make it work).
Consider that your average, low tech sourdough bakery will take about 2 hours to mix 5 or 6 doughs. That is a 2 hour range where the starter is used and produces consistently good bread. At low temperatures (say 8C to 15C) the window is much bigger than 2 hours.
I was living in a mountain cabin recently where the kitchen was in the range of 8C to 16C. I made a stiff (60% hydration) starter and got excellent results using it in the 24 - 48 hour range. Later I diluted the starter to about 90% hydration, and got great results in the 18 to 24 hour range. Of course in warmer environments the window is much smaller.
Baked today. YES! Now I KNOW the starter is active!
I'd upload a pic, but can't work out how to do it! Have emailed poor Maedi accordingly. Suffice it to say that the loaf is mal-shapen, the slashes I put rather gingerly in the top were too shallow and appear only as light scratch marks, and the dough folded on itself underneath when I dropped it on the bench I was working on just prior to putting it in the oven - this resulted in a sort of flap towards one part of the base of the loaf. Nevertheless, the crumb is nice and moist, a bit uneven (as I like it), the texture elastic, and the flavour is surprisingly good, with some nice caramelisation of the crust. All in all, I'm thrilled. And I mean that quite literally.
Thanks so much for all your support, folks, and especially Graham for your patience and multiple elaborations.
I'm thinking now that I'm actually fortunate to have begun my starter in winter, since it seems from your post above, Graham, that cool temps facilitate a larger margin for error re timing the use of the starter. Really interesting info, by the way, in your post above. I'm grateful for this ongoing crash course!
I'm still feeding the doughball, and will persist with that method. I also have two active liquid starters going now, one being fed with an organic white flour/organic whole-grain rye mix, the other organic white flour only. Made sourdough pancakes from the latter starter tossout for breakfast this morning. REALLY nice.
Another question, please. My sourdough recipe book specifies rye starter in some recipes, spelt in others, and a variety of others. I'm wondering if it's essential to follow these directions, or whether one good active starter, say of white flour/rye, will suffice for all recipes? I'm suspecting that the real character of the bread will come from the ingredients more than the starter. eg: a spelt bread should still get its flavour from the spelt flour used, regardless of whether spelt is a component of the starter...yes?
Or are there other factors here other than finished flavour of which I am not aware - for example, maybe some starters give a more powerful rise than others, and are particulary appropriate for breads using different types of flour?
Finally figured out Maedi's patient instructions as to how to post a pic. So, here's my weekend produce after a long 3 months of trying to get an active starter going...and finally succeeding.
Your persistence and patience really paid off. Great bread. I'm not sure if it's the picture, but, are there a bit of wet spots? You might want to bake 10 mins longer. Congrats.
[quote=TeckPoh]I'm not sure if it's the picture, but, are there a bit of wet spots? You might want to bake 10 mins longer. Congrats.
[/quote]
Astute, TeckPoh - and quite correct. It could have done with another 10 minutes or so. Ended up a little too moist. It was far from a great loaf - very much a beginner's first time effort - but I was chuffed that it rose so well.
Thanks for the tips re the pics. I'll try re-sizing them when I have a bit more time.
Just tried to post the pics after resizing them to 500px width using the Gallery edit function. It worked, but the images came out far too big. Tried to delete them from the gallery and re-upload in smaller size, but apparently the delete function is disabled.
Will try re-posting to the Gallery in smaller size under different names.
Damned if I could find a way to track down the URL html for the pics - but it is obviously possible! Thanks for intervening, LeadDog.
Not sure what you mean by "share" - the recipe, perhaps? No worries if so. I'll post it in the Recipes section and put up the link back here when done. I picked one of the two in my sourdough recipe book that were classified "easiest for beginners". For anyone who's been baking sourdough for a while, then, I suspect this is going to be a very basic recipe.
Will be trying a spelt or wholemeal loaf later this week.
Ross I use Safari which has a command to open an "Image in a new window". That gives me the URL for the picture. I don't think I have ever seen a command like that in IE. Firefox has a similar command just right click on the image. Share? I meant give us a slice of bread to eat.
Thanks, LeadDog. Between you and Maedi and TeckPoh, I think I finally get it.
Share? Sure - help yourself to as many virtual slices as ya like! Can't assist with the real loaf, the last slices of which are currently in the process of being digested.
Your bread looks great Ross, excellent to see that the starter making is paying off.
"Another question, please. My sourdough recipe book specifies rye
starter in some recipes, spelt in others, and a variety of others. I'm
wondering if it's essential to follow these directions, or whether one
good active starter, say of white flour/rye, will suffice for all
recipes? I'm suspecting that the real character of the bread will come
from the ingredients more than the starter. eg: a spelt bread should
still get its flavour from the spelt flour used, regardless of whether
spelt is a component of the starter...yes?
Or are there other
factors here other than finished flavour of which I am not aware - for
example, maybe some starters give a more powerful rise than others, and
are particulary appropriate for breads using different types of flour?"
Many bakers use one or two starters to make many varieties of bread. A high quality wheat flour starter should work well in most doughs. My preference is to use a wholewheat starter, but I suspect that most contemporary bakers use organic white flour in their starters.
Wheat starter will leaven spelt and rye. But if you want 100% spelt or rye then of course you need starters to be of the same variety. There is no doubt that something special happens to rye when it is fermented. Acidity benefits rye dough/bread greatly. Being able to vary the nature of individual starters (eg. extended fermentation - increased acidity) can be beneficial. Many bakers would prefer to use a rye starter in rye bread even if that bread is not 100% rye, but a blend of wheat and rye.
I think that if we surveyed bakers, a majority would say that doughs will perform (particularly rise) better if they are made from starters that use the same flour as that which is in the final dough. The belief is that the organisms in the starter will be perfectly suited to ferment the flour in the dough. This may be the case but there are other variables at play.
For instance if you discovered that rye starter was giving you heavier baguettes than wheat flour starter...is it because of incompatible microbes or because the rye flour in the starter contains heavier particles (that tear at gluten in the final dough) or the rye starter is becoming active at a faster rate and moving past its peak, or a combination...there would be other possibilities.
One thing that should be considered is that flour fermented for a very long time...such as in a starter...is consumed and does not develop gluten membranes like flour added freshly to the final dough. Therefore (in my mind) it makes sense to save the higher performing, gluten making flour for the final dough, and ferment (break down) the heavier, wholemeal flour in the starter.
Thanks indeed, Graham. Always enjoy and appreciate your expansive and knowledgable posts which, as I've said previously, are providing me (and I imagine others) with a terrific educative crash course in sourdough baking.
I've got two liquid starters going at the moment. The original is the 70% organic white flour/30% rye mix recommended in the starter instructions on the home page of this site. Using a couple of tablespoons of this original, I've got another one happening, and this one has a markedly different aroma to it - the banana/fruity/alcohol tones I've read about. Fascinating.
This second one I have been feeding with organic spelt flour for 2 days, because I'm planning to try a spelt/wholemeal loaf next that calls for spelt starter.
The new spelt feed is being "accepted", since the starter is expanding overnight and has a bubbly, stretchy quality to it, but it doesn't seem as active as the rather foamy, mousse-like original starter. For this reason, I'm slightly iffy about using the spelt starter in this new recipe. It will probably be OK, but I'm haunted by memories of my first ever sourdough baking effort, for which I used a starter that evidently wasn't really active, even though it was masquerading as such - produced me a brick, didn't I?!
I'm wondering if there's any reason not to combine starters for this coming recipe: that is, use half my original starter, which I know works well, and half the spelt one?
I feel a bit gulity, frequently responding to your already generous posts with yet another question, Graham. I think I'm coming to the end of them - for now, anyway!
I'm definitely enjoying and grateful for all these Q n A's. Thanks, guys!
I used to have both a rye starter (started by Dan Lepard) and a white starter, but, later, decided to keep only a white starter to 'uncomplicate' things or so I thought. But, now, I think I may reconsider.
I am sooooooo enjoying all these posts about 'baby starters & baby bakers'. I have finally (THANKS TP!!!) managed to get my adopted baby to double in size & become frothy. It has not done the explode & fill the jar BUT I feel sure by the amont of bubbles & activity that I can have a GO at baking my 1st ever loaf !!! After taking my starter out of the fridge yesterday (as advised by TP, another hot-climate baker), I let it sit on the bench for the whole day as our weather here in Bali has been cool, only 18* overnight. It was so bubbly & had doubled in size. I then put 3/4 of the starter into the only flour I can buy here, and mixed it into a 'pre-ferm' which I gently kneaded & put back into the fridge with oiled plastic over the top. Just went & had a look (7hrs later) & it has doubled in size !!! I am very excited by this & will take a photo (I seem to have the same problem with uploading pics, but that is another story) and attempt my 1st ever sourdough loaf. The original starter, which measured about 1/4cup, I mixed with 1/2 cup white bread flour + water to 'taste' & it has also remained active with many small bubbles in it!! I will put it to bed in the fridge overnight & re-feed it again in the morning. Will let you know what happens & take photos even if I have to send them to wonderful TP to 'deal with' for me :) Reading all the posts has kept me inspired, hopeful and eternally grateful and kept my impatience (somewhat) at bay :) Many, many thanks, Annie
Well it looks like both Ross and Annie have successful starters and doughs happening. I'm so glad for your contributions TP, because where I am at the moment it is dificult to imagine hot climate baking....it is freezing!
Ross, I tend to got through modes of experimentation...when attempts sometimes fail, and then times when I'm sick of failure and just want consistent bread all the time. I think whether or not you decide to combine the two starters depends what frame of mind you are in.
Luckily you can use the bulk proof to prove that your dough has been activated by the starter...and it will just take longer to show activity...say 4 to 5 hours instead of 3 hours at room temp...if half of your starter is not as active as it should be.
The bulk proof does not have to necessarily double...but show signs of movement and activity...particularly if you are uncertain about the strength of your starter. Some bakers chose not to bulk proof and rise directly and longer in the forms...but they are already confident about their starters.
[quote=Graham]Some bakers chose not to bulk proof and rise directly and longer in the forms...but they are already confident about their starters.[/quote] Graham, I'm not quite understanding some of the terminology. I've done a quick search on the web, but not able to get certain clarification.
I understand that "bulk proof" refers to the stage after you've mixed and air-kneaded or folded your dough - ie: letting the dough rise over a few hours. However, I'm not sure what you mean by "rise directly and longer in the forms." Would you mind explaining briefly, pls?
Breads have many formula and methods...gee, I only knew this when I started to be serious with breads. Most consist of 2 main steps, i.e.
1.A long bulk ferment with intermittent fold and turns ( at the end of which you divide, round, shape). This serves the purpose of redistributing clumps of yeast, release some carbon dioxide built-up and incorporate some more oxygen for a bit more gluten development in the...
2. Shorter prove in a mould/basket/form.
I think Graham is saying some skip the the bulk ferment and just plonk the dough straight into forms, but allow a longer rise. I notice this one-rise usually works for breads with flour which are low in gluten, like rye, but flavour development is enhanced with a preferment.
Made another loaf a couple of days ago, this time a spelt-wholemeal bread. Was a bit paranoid about under-baking due to the previous, slightly over-moist loaf, and this time slightly over-baked it! The crust was a bit thick and hard, but the crumb and texture were spot on. Very flavoursome, but I prefer a less heavy style of bread, so will revert to white for next one.
I'd post a pic, but can't work out how to click open the original image in the gallery to get the proper URL - can only see thumbnails, and clicking on these gives a URL that won't work for posting in this thread. Anyway, the following links will get to the pics, I guess:
My 2 liquid starters are thriving, but still no signs of life in the rye doughball...think I'll move on to the final stages of the doughball process soon, and if I don't get an active starter at that point, will give up on that method. Really happy to have the opportunity to experiment with cool-temp starters like this, though, and the starters I do have going are producing nice breads - so life is good!
Replies
Hello Annie & TP
Yup...i will post photos this weekend. I have an online album called "bread porn"!! hahaha.
Cant wait to hear how the 'adopted family' turns out!
My starter was given to me by a close mate, and he got it from someone else. I have recently adopted-out some of mine to a friend, (a virgin baker!) and so the cycle continues!
Warms your heart, doesnt it!!?
:)
I had been using fine, processed rye flour, and have to conclude that it was a poor choice. Organic wholemeal rye was not available in the store I routinely go to for my grains, and I guess I was too lazy to search further afield for the good stuff.
Recent posts on this thread from experienced sourdough specialists Graham and TeckPoh, who indicated that they use only best quality organic whole-grain flours in their starters and breadmaking, turned the light on.
Baking your own bread is all about quality - why would you wilfully begin with starter fashioned from inferior grain? Shoulda thought thangs out a little more carefully instead of rushing in and settling for the first flour I could get my hands on. O the folly of seeking instant gratification. And in the end, here I sit entirely ungratified, with 2 months of failed starters in the compost! Duh.
So, humbled and repentant, I hit the web and found an excellent little organic produce store just down the road (for interested Perth readers, Organic On Charles , Shop 7, 299 Charles Street North Perth). They have great quality organic flours at prices I think are quite reasonable - eg: I bought some local rye and wholemeal wheat for $3.22 per kilo, sourced from an organic producer in the South-West of WA (Edenvale, I think...Eden Valley, perhaps?). Anyway...
I am now 4 days into a new doughball of organic rye as per Graham's instructions in this thread, and 3 days into a new liquid starter (wholemeal flour/rye mix - for this one, I am following the instructions on the home page of this great site). Feeling MUCH more optimistic now.
Also, the organic whole-grain flours are SO much more pleasant to work with. The highly processed rye I was using before was like sticky plasticine - a bugger to mix with water, and cleaning the containers and stirring spoons afterwards was a real trial.
So, I've given ground to make ground. And so glad to now be using flours of real quality. Thank you for the wisdom and inspiration Graham and TeckPoh!
and, yes, sirrreeee, Gabby's breads are not only fabulous, there's such a great variety. Yumyumyumyumyum. You've started posting some in the gallery here, I hope?
Ross and Annie it is such a shame that good flour is hard to come by and/or expensive. I expect that most flour has the nutrient to sustain wild yeast of some sort...but from Ross's experiment it appears that not all flour contains wild yeast and/or there is potential for chemicals in non-organic flour to suppress wild yeast activity.
It is a good thing that we are forced to use clean, nutrient-rich flour to make sourdough! This morning I came accross an article that talks about the use of nutrient-rich ancient grains in the making of gluten-free bread, rather than the typical potato flour, guar gum (etc) mix. It is an industrially focused article...but has some very good points and shows that even the industrials are aware that pasty, refined flours have there limitations.
http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Ancient-grain-blend-...
If you can get hold of any decent grain...grain that sprouts...then there is no reason why you can't experiment with planting that in your garden. A few months ago I approached a farmer and got them interested in growing grain. They asked for a small grain sample and were going to see how viable it was on their farm...simply by trialing it in their kitchen vegy garden.
My point is that we don't have to put up with commercial, powdery junk...at least to make our starters from. It only takes a small amount of crushed or rolled grain to make a starter. A home mill is great, but simple hand-driven solutions are also available, as well as mini-mill attachments for kitchen mixers.
There are several bakeries in Sydney that use Organic starters to rise dough made with chemically grown/stored baker's flour. In Sydney this is inexcusable because we have access to great Organic flour...but in other places it is obviously an option that needs to be considered.
Graham
Whooa - planting your own backyard grain crops...now that's outta left field!
I recall speaking with an elderly sea-changer in Denmark (WA, not Scandinavia) in the 90s, who was raving about the flavour of the bread his wife baked from their home-milled home-grown wheat and thinking then how satisfying (and healthy!) it must be harvesting and milling your own grain for bread. I'd forgotten about that conversation until your post above.
We got rid of all our useless lawn 5 years ago and turned our backyard over to organic vege growing (anyone interested, see my blogs on this here and here and here), so your suggestion is surely viable. The idea of making starters/bread from your own grain is thrilling to me, but with good organic grain flours available locally, I guess it's a matter of prioritising. We have only a small suburban backyard, and don't have enough space for all the veges we would like to grow; growing grain would eat into this space. Nevertheless, you've certainly got me thinking (no mean feat, some might unkindly claim).
Wonder how wheat or other grains would go in a topical environment like Bali? Home-grown could be a way to cut down some of the expense of getting on to quality flour for people like Annie... but aren't grains vulnerable to a variety of fungi, rust etc in moist tropical climates? Always worth trying new things, though.
Cheers!
Ross
It came beautifully packed in a zip-lock bag & plastic film wrap which I put all of into a clean glass jar. There was about 1tablespoon of starter.
I let it sit in water to cover, to dissolve for 2hrs then rinsed all her baby carefully off into the jar.
I then fed it with 1 tablespoon of (the only flour i have) 'imported organic rye' from Oz + 1 tablespoon of filtered water. It sat on the kitchen bench at 26*c for 24hrs until I fed it again the next morning. I had approx 1/2cup of starter. Next day I discarded 1/2 (used it in a conventional bread, not sourdough as the flour is too expensive to compost!) and fed again with 1T of flour & 1 of water. After chatting with TP, I think I had a mix that was too wet. TP's advice was it "..needs to be stiff enough for the bubbles to hold.." Sounded very sensible to me. I do not have any scales for weighing so need to go on intuition & eye ;)
TP also said because our temperatures here in Bali are 26-28* every day, maybe it would be good to keep it in the fridge if I do not want it to be too 'sour'.
Today (Saturday) I took it out in the morning, discarded 1/2 & let it sit on the bench for the day as it seemed a bit too cold & the few bubbles that had appeared the day before were ?a bit less.
It smells OK and has not separated or gone funny looking or smelling so will keep this regeme up for the next week & we will see.
I am more worried that instead of being a 'good adoptive mum' I might have killed her baby. Fingers xed that is not the case!
After reading Graham's post about finding alternative, unprocessed grains, I wonder if I used some ripe rice from the sawa (rice paddy) next to our home, if this would be an alternative for getting a starter to spring into action. I am sure that the expensive flour I bought is 'lifeless', & despite an active starter from TP, there may not be enough 'goodies' in it to sustain life.
Maybe I am too impatient but................
Annie
TP is your midwife for this one...but I would look at getting your new starter out of the fridge for about 8 hours of the day. I'm guessing your fridge is around 4C, which will considerably reduce the potential activity of your starter.
Letting the starter go through a range of temperatures between fridge and room temperature should be of benefit and (hopefully) get your brew working enough to need feeding every 24 hours. But please give more weight to TP's words on this because it is her culture and she will know more about its behaviour...particularly in your climate.
Using local rice sounds like a good idea...possibly as a proportion of your flour, and not entirely, at least at first. You could also make a seperate brew just with rice to compare with your rye/rice mix.
I can't tell you much about rice plucked from a paddy field...finally you have access to grain that we don't have in this part of Australia (cold and dry, S.E Tasmania).
Graham
Was out this evening. Sorry, Annie, I should have given you more detailed instructions.
OK...this is what I do. Since I do not bake sourdough on a weekly basis, I keep my starter in the fridge (2 or 3 small jars of it...some people love to keep baby jars).
1. I start to refresh my (liquid) starter the morning before I make the bread if it's a straight dough recipe. If it requires a preferment, I give it one more day's grace.
2. After I feed it the 1st time, which is like 1T starter with half C flour and around 1/4 C water, I may not see much action, just tiny bubbles.
3. Even so, after 8 hours, I feed it again, this time with close to 1 C flour and 3/4 C water. I do not like to throw batter away. I leave it for around 4 hours in our room temp, which will see it double (my starter's mature peak), then stick it in the fridge for a cool rest before the next day's action.
4. The next morning, I either use this starter to make bread, or, if the starter had been left in the fridge unfed for more than 2 weeks, I give it one more feed, adding another C flour and 3/4 C water. This usually brings it up to spunky form, peaking more than double in sometimes less than 3 hours. I must confess I hardly weigh feeds, doing everything by feel....bad habit..but looks like this method will work fine for you since you don't have a scale. But...but, a scale is an extremely useful tool to get most recipes right and we want to be professional. ;)
5. Having said I don't throw any starter along the way, I'd like to add that this perhaps work for me because this is an established starter. Since this thread is about 1st home starter, the throwing away part is necessary, because you're only making a total of a cup or little more, whereas, my 3 total feeds is just nice for making my bread plus some to keep in the fridge.
I know the impatient feeling, Annie. It took me a whole fumbling week to revive Jack's starter. Please don't fret. Know that I'm always ready to send you more, but, I think it's fine. I won't be in much tomorrow but I'll check bubba's progress when I'm back, because I just bought some rye flour today to send off to you on Monday. I could throw in some more starter to go with that. No problemo.
Hugs
TP
http://sourdough.com/forum/pictures-my-6-week-old-starters
to provide some comfort for folk that cannot easily source/afford fancy flour. I'm a relative n00b who is making tasty bread with mainstream stuff that I buy from the local bakery.
HTH,
J.
So, on to a new stage, and hence a couple of new questions (you've had a good break from me, Graham, so hopefully your instructional batteries are recharged!):
1. My sourdough recipe book requires the starter quantity used in most recipes to be around 200gm, but my current starter is only about 100gm. What is the recommended way to increase the amount of starter, please? Do I just not throw any out and add the usual 70gm flour + 30gm rye + 100gm water? This would make the quantity up to 200gm, or thereabouts. (And I know I need to be sure not to use it all up in the bread recipe to make sure I still have a starter).
2. When is the optimum time to start using the starter? Not just after feeding it, I assume. I would have thought towards the time it is usually due for a feed (but before feeding it)?
Cheers all
Ross
PS: Thanks for your post, jas. You and others here have given me confidence to push ahead, when it seemed I was never going to get a good starter happening. It so happens that my change to good quality organic flour brought on an active starter when the VERY processed rye I was using before did not, but it's interesting that you have had plenty of success with "ordinary" flours. Will be consulting your blog posts when it comes time to actually bake my first loaf.
PPS: I made some chapatis out of the starter toss-out last night. Just did it by instinct, until the texture of the dough seemed right (I often make chapatis, so am used to the process). Added a cup or so of starter to my usual atta flour and teaspoon of olive oil, then added water until "right". I am thrilled to report that the chapatis turned out to be the BEST I have ever made. Added dimension of flavour, lighter, plus they developed a lovely crispness on the outside while staying soft in the middle. A most encouraging sourdough debut!
ANNIE
that I'd like give you my unsolicited 2 sen (which amounts to much less in your currency).
[quote=rossnroller]
[snip]....
1. My sourdough recipe book requires the starter quantity used in most recipes to be around 200gm, but my current starter is only about 100gm. What is the recommended way to increase the amount of starter, please? Do I just not throw any out and add the usual 70gm flour + 30gm rye + 100gm water? This would make the quantity up to 200gm, or thereabouts. (And I know I need to be sure not to use it all up in the bread recipe to make sure I still have a starter).I
I'd go with topping it up, like you were thinking, with 70g flour, 30g rye, 100g water...which...*cough* if added to your current 100g amount to close to 300g. This leaves you plenty for future generations.
2. When is the optimum time to start using the starter? Not just after feeding it, I assume. I would have thought towards the time it is usually due for a feed (but before feeding it)?
Nursing your baby to bubbly life, you would have been able to gauge how long it takes your starter to peak. Mixing your dough plus or minus half an hour won't hurt. Er...from my experience, at least.
All the best, RnR...we'll want pix!
Cheers all
Ross
[snip]...
PPS: I made some chapatis out of the starter toss-out last night. Just did it by instinct, until the texture of the dough seemed right (I often make chapatis, so am used to the process). Added a cup or so of starter to my usual atta flour and teaspoon of olive oil, then added water until "right". I am thrilled to report that the chapatis turned out to be the BEST I have ever made. Added dimension of flavour, lighter, plus they developed a lovely crispness on the outside while staying soft in the middle. A most encouraging sourdough debut!
What a great idea! I love making my own chapatis too, but, have never added any starter into it. Thanks!
[/quote]
I have posted my chapati recipe in the Recipes section: http://sourdough.com/forum/sourdough-chapatis-using-starter-toss-out
Cheers all
R
TP's feeding comment above sounds good to me. Her point about using experience to guage when your starter is peaking is basically the reality of how most bakers learn to manage their starter.
Some bakers like to use their starter when the dough has expanded to maximum volume...and guage this by the shape of the top of the dough...if it has started to fall then you have just missed the peak! The physical peak of a starter will vary depending on factors that include hydration and how long the starter was mixed for.
For instance some bakers mix their starter in a dough mixer and the starter looks just like bread dough. While other bakers prefer a quickly incorporated soup. I would expect the fermentation characteristics of these starters to be different when the dough physically peaks...but don't have any specific data to say what the precise differences would be.
It also depends on what a baker means when the say 'the peak'. Is it when the dough has the most micro-organisms that are useful to raise the next dough? Or when acidity levels are at the perfect level to condition and make extensible the new dough? And what about the breaking down of the flour to gain access to previously inaccessible nutrients, or to reduce the potential harmfull effects of overly powerful proteins or simplified starches?
I don't mean to get all complicated about this matter. Rather I'm suggesting that becasue there are so many potential considerations and variables that the best approach is to use intuition (based on experience and information from others) and in particular your own senses...does my dough/bread look/tast/smell better because I used a more mature starter...or was it better the other day when I took it early?...etc.
Extreme examples of technically 'getting it perfect' exist and (IMO) belong in industrial baking circles. I visit the city regularly and go on a bread tour with one of my baker friends....we have a bit of fun walking around town and looking/tasting what is on offer. The consistently most unappealing bread comes from a highly technical process that has evolved from an 'absolute' knowledge of fermentation behaviour (formed dough is risen and held in suspension at 2C for about 6 weeks)....making it possible to 'bake on demand' and reduce wastage problems.
That is an extreme...I know. We do need to be able to make informed choices but it gets a bit crazy when the technical completely manages how the baker bakes. I think that is why bread machines can be so frustrating and have a hard time with sourdough (you have to give the technition a long holiday to make it work).
Consider that your average, low tech sourdough bakery will take about 2 hours to mix 5 or 6 doughs. That is a 2 hour range where the starter is used and produces consistently good bread. At low temperatures (say 8C to 15C) the window is much bigger than 2 hours.
I was living in a mountain cabin recently where the kitchen was in the range of 8C to 16C. I made a stiff (60% hydration) starter and got excellent results using it in the 24 - 48 hour range. Later I diluted the starter to about 90% hydration, and got great results in the 18 to 24 hour range. Of course in warmer environments the window is much smaller.
Graham
I'd upload a pic, but can't work out how to do it! Have emailed poor Maedi accordingly. Suffice it to say that the loaf is mal-shapen, the slashes I put rather gingerly in the top were too shallow and appear only as light scratch marks, and the dough folded on itself underneath when I dropped it on the bench I was working on just prior to putting it in the oven - this resulted in a sort of flap towards one part of the base of the loaf. Nevertheless, the crumb is nice and moist, a bit uneven (as I like it), the texture elastic, and the flavour is surprisingly good, with some nice caramelisation of the crust. All in all, I'm thrilled. And I mean that quite literally.
Thanks so much for all your support, folks, and especially Graham for your patience and multiple elaborations.
I'm thinking now that I'm actually fortunate to have begun my starter in winter, since it seems from your post above, Graham, that cool temps facilitate a larger margin for error re timing the use of the starter. Really interesting info, by the way, in your post above. I'm grateful for this ongoing crash course!
I'm still feeding the doughball, and will persist with that method. I also have two active liquid starters going now, one being fed with an organic white flour/organic whole-grain rye mix, the other organic white flour only. Made sourdough pancakes from the latter starter tossout for breakfast this morning. REALLY nice.
Another question, please. My sourdough recipe book specifies rye starter in some recipes, spelt in others, and a variety of others. I'm wondering if it's essential to follow these directions, or whether one good active starter, say of white flour/rye, will suffice for all recipes? I'm suspecting that the real character of the bread will come from the ingredients more than the starter. eg: a spelt bread should still get its flavour from the spelt flour used, regardless of whether spelt is a component of the starter...yes?
Or are there other factors here other than finished flavour of which I am not aware - for example, maybe some starters give a more powerful rise than others, and are particulary appropriate for breads using different types of flour?
Cheers!
Ross
http://sourdough.com/gallery/v/user/rossnroller/07+2009+Sourdough+031.jp...
http://sourdough.com/gallery/v/user/rossnroller/07+2009+Sourdough+035.jp...
I tried to re-post your images but at the point of completion I closed the wrong window!! Aaack! So...you try it.
1. For most forum postings, it's best if you keep your image to a manageable width of 600px max. So, you gotta resize them images.
2. Click open the original image in the gallery and copy and use that url, not the smaller image. Use http://sourdough.com/gallery2/gallery/d/12359340-1/07+2009+Sourdough+031.jpg and not http://sourdough.com/gallery/v/user/rossnroller/07+2009+Sourdough+031.jpg.html
Your persistence and patience really paid off. Great bread. I'm not sure if it's the picture, but, are there a bit of wet spots? You might want to bake 10 mins longer. Congrats.
Looking forward to more breads from you.
Astute, TeckPoh - and quite correct. It could have done with another 10 minutes or so. Ended up a little too moist. It was far from a great loaf - very much a beginner's first time effort - but I was chuffed that it rose so well.
Thanks for the tips re the pics. I'll try re-sizing them when I have a bit more time.
Will try re-posting to the Gallery in smaller size under different names.
Looks really good. Are you going to share with us?
Not sure what you mean by "share" - the recipe, perhaps? No worries if so. I'll post it in the Recipes section and put up the link back here when done. I picked one of the two in my sourdough recipe book that were classified "easiest for beginners". For anyone who's been baking sourdough for a while, then, I suspect this is going to be a very basic recipe.
Will be trying a spelt or wholemeal loaf later this week.
Cheers
Ross
Share? I meant give us a slice of bread to eat.
Share? Sure - help yourself to as many virtual slices as ya like! Can't assist with the real loaf, the last slices of which are currently in the process of being digested.
Cheers!
R
"Another question, please. My sourdough recipe book specifies rye starter in some recipes, spelt in others, and a variety of others. I'm wondering if it's essential to follow these directions, or whether one good active starter, say of white flour/rye, will suffice for all recipes? I'm suspecting that the real character of the bread will come from the ingredients more than the starter. eg: a spelt bread should still get its flavour from the spelt flour used, regardless of whether spelt is a component of the starter...yes?
Or are there other factors here other than finished flavour of which I am not aware - for example, maybe some starters give a more powerful rise than others, and are particulary appropriate for breads using different types of flour?"
Many bakers use one or two starters to make many varieties of bread. A high quality wheat flour starter should work well in most doughs. My preference is to use a wholewheat starter, but I suspect that most contemporary bakers use organic white flour in their starters.
Wheat starter will leaven spelt and rye. But if you want 100% spelt or rye then of course you need starters to be of the same variety. There is no doubt that something special happens to rye when it is fermented. Acidity benefits rye dough/bread greatly. Being able to vary the nature of individual starters (eg. extended fermentation - increased acidity) can be beneficial. Many bakers would prefer to use a rye starter in rye bread even if that bread is not 100% rye, but a blend of wheat and rye.
I think that if we surveyed bakers, a majority would say that doughs will perform (particularly rise) better if they are made from starters that use the same flour as that which is in the final dough. The belief is that the organisms in the starter will be perfectly suited to ferment the flour in the dough. This may be the case but there are other variables at play.
For instance if you discovered that rye starter was giving you heavier baguettes than wheat flour starter...is it because of incompatible microbes or because the rye flour in the starter contains heavier particles (that tear at gluten in the final dough) or the rye starter is becoming active at a faster rate and moving past its peak, or a combination...there would be other possibilities.
One thing that should be considered is that flour fermented for a very long time...such as in a starter...is consumed and does not develop gluten membranes like flour added freshly to the final dough. Therefore (in my mind) it makes sense to save the higher performing, gluten making flour for the final dough, and ferment (break down) the heavier, wholemeal flour in the starter.
Graham
I've got two liquid starters going at the moment. The original is the 70% organic white flour/30% rye mix recommended in the starter instructions on the home page of this site. Using a couple of tablespoons of this original, I've got another one happening, and this one has a markedly different aroma to it - the banana/fruity/alcohol tones I've read about. Fascinating.
This second one I have been feeding with organic spelt flour for 2 days, because I'm planning to try a spelt/wholemeal loaf next that calls for spelt starter.
The new spelt feed is being "accepted", since the starter is expanding overnight and has a bubbly, stretchy quality to it, but it doesn't seem as active as the rather foamy, mousse-like original starter. For this reason, I'm slightly iffy about using the spelt starter in this new recipe. It will probably be OK, but I'm haunted by memories of my first ever sourdough baking effort, for which I used a starter that evidently wasn't really active, even though it was masquerading as such - produced me a brick, didn't I?!
I'm wondering if there's any reason not to combine starters for this coming recipe: that is, use half my original starter, which I know works well, and half the spelt one?
I feel a bit gulity, frequently responding to your already generous posts with yet another question, Graham. I think I'm coming to the end of them - for now, anyway!
Cheers
Ross
I'm definitely enjoying and grateful for all these Q n A's. Thanks, guys!
I used to have both a rye starter (started by Dan Lepard) and a white starter, but, later, decided to keep only a white starter to 'uncomplicate' things or so I thought. But, now, I think I may reconsider.
After taking my starter out of the fridge yesterday (as advised by TP, another hot-climate baker), I let it sit on the bench for the whole day as our weather here in Bali has been cool, only 18* overnight. It was so bubbly & had doubled in size. I then put 3/4 of the starter into the only flour I can buy here, and mixed it into a 'pre-ferm' which I gently kneaded & put back into the fridge with oiled plastic over the top. Just went & had a look (7hrs later) & it has doubled in size !!! I am very excited by this & will take a photo (I seem to have the same problem with uploading pics, but that is another story) and attempt my 1st ever sourdough loaf. The original starter, which measured about 1/4cup, I mixed with 1/2 cup white bread flour + water to 'taste' & it has also remained active with many small bubbles in it!! I will put it to bed in the fridge overnight & re-feed it again in the morning.
Will let you know what happens & take photos even if I have to send them to wonderful TP to 'deal with' for me :)
Reading all the posts has kept me inspired, hopeful and eternally grateful and kept my impatience (somewhat) at bay :)
Many, many thanks, Annie
Ross, I tend to got through modes of experimentation...when attempts sometimes fail, and then times when I'm sick of failure and just want consistent bread all the time. I think whether or not you decide to combine the two starters depends what frame of mind you are in.
Luckily you can use the bulk proof to prove that your dough has been activated by the starter...and it will just take longer to show activity...say 4 to 5 hours instead of 3 hours at room temp...if half of your starter is not as active as it should be.
The bulk proof does not have to necessarily double...but show signs of movement and activity...particularly if you are uncertain about the strength of your starter. Some bakers chose not to bulk proof and rise directly and longer in the forms...but they are already confident about their starters.
Graham
Will let you know what happens & take photos even if I have to send them to wonderful TP to 'deal with' for me :)
[/quote]
Hi Annie, I've written a tutorial on how to upload photos:
http://sourdough.com/how-upload-photos
In the near future it will be much easier to upload photos. You'll simply click an 'Upload photo' button when posting.
All the best,
Maedi
Graham, I'm not quite understanding some of the terminology. I've done a quick search on the web, but not able to get certain clarification.
I understand that "bulk proof" refers to the stage after you've mixed and air-kneaded or folded your dough - ie: letting the dough rise over a few hours. However, I'm not sure what you mean by "rise directly and longer in the forms." Would you mind explaining briefly, pls?
I think :)
Breads have many formula and methods...gee, I only knew this when I started to be serious with breads. Most consist of 2 main steps, i.e.
1.A long bulk ferment with intermittent fold and turns ( at the end of which you divide, round, shape). This serves the purpose of redistributing clumps of yeast, release some carbon dioxide built-up and incorporate some more oxygen for a bit more gluten development in the...
2. Shorter prove in a mould/basket/form.
I think Graham is saying some skip the the bulk ferment and just plonk the dough straight into forms, but allow a longer rise. I notice this one-rise usually works for breads with flour which are low in gluten, like rye, but flavour development is enhanced with a preferment.
Aha - got it. Thanks TeckPoh.
Made another loaf a couple of days ago, this time a spelt-wholemeal bread. Was a bit paranoid about under-baking due to the previous, slightly over-moist loaf, and this time slightly over-baked it! The crust was a bit thick and hard, but the crumb and texture were spot on. Very flavoursome, but I prefer a less heavy style of bread, so will revert to white for next one.
I'd post a pic, but can't work out how to click open the original image in the gallery to get the proper URL - can only see thumbnails, and clicking on these gives a URL that won't work for posting in this thread. Anyway, the following links will get to the pics, I guess:
http://sourdough.com/gallery/v/user/rossnroller/spelt-wholemeal+sourdoug...
http://sourdough.com/gallery/v/user/rossnroller/spelt-wholemeal+sourdoug...
My 2 liquid starters are thriving, but still no signs of life in the rye doughball...think I'll move on to the final stages of the doughball process soon, and if I don't get an active starter at that point, will give up on that method. Really happy to have the opportunity to experiment with cool-temp starters like this, though, and the starters I do have going are producing nice breads - so life is good!
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