Bill, the first thing which came into my mind was (like you) how does one explain Dan's gentler method which produces golf-ball sized bubbles in my bread? Methinks 'Stretching and Folding' is another name for Sexier Kneading.
like many articles talking about the science of bread-making this one seems purely based upon commercial bread-making, and hence its utility for artisan baking is somewhat diminished.
I am sure that Graham and Chembake would have more to say on this.
Artisan bakers often deliberately use lower protein flour (viz Jack Lang's amazing experiments).
The theory that kneading is necessary to generate air pockets in the bread is not consistent with the demonstrable success of the short kneading method. (On the other hand the end product is also different, with an open irregular texture being desired by the artisan baker, whereas the commercial baker seeks a light, high volume, close textured loaf). So the theory needs modification.
Bill,
I am starting to mix part bread with all purpose flour to see the difference, and actually observed that in one of the last breads I used a very stiff starter
to activate my normal 100% flour/water and it started to get sort of dry after aday and the shelf life was less than that of that whole wheat Miche?
Got to get more into the technical rather than the aesthetic I suppose?
[quote]
Artisan bakers often deliberately use lower protein flour (viz Jack Lang's amazing experiments).
[/quote]
Hi Dom that technical article posted by Bill is an informative document although there are some points that is contrary to certain areas of cereal chemistry as applied to cakes and biscuit baking; but as these topics are not related to sourdough I will not discuss about it much
Your concern that the protein articles is not useful to sourdough is an understatement.
Regardless of whatever breadmaking style you have to apply the principles remains the same.
We know that sufficient flour protein is important in being able to make a satisfactory bread and there is a minimum limits for protein content that a flour is considered acceptable to breadmaking.
Your thesis that strong flour protein is not required in artisan baking is reasonable because in Europe where this baking style originated is dominated by weaker wheat variety such as what is found in the native French T55 flour, German and UK flours .
Certain mixed grist flours that when calculated in protein content results in lower values still is able to yield acceptable bread. This means that flour protein is not the only factor for gas retention but also the fibrous component of flour counts supplies pentosans which swell in acidic conditions in the sourdough mimicking or even enhancing the gas retention qualities of gluten.
Yes artisan bakers deliberate uses lower protein or to be exact medium protein( flours having a protein content of 10-11% because they intuitively recognize that there are other factors that contribute to dough strength which often manifest in the acidic condition of the sourdough.
[quote]
>The theory that kneading is necessary to generate air pockets in the bread is not consistent >with the demonstrable success of the short kneading method. (On the other hand the end >product is also different, with an open irregular texture being desired by the artisan baker, <whereas>needs modification.
[/quote]
There is theoretical basis for that idea Dom
Actually if you look fundamentally how the dough gas cell originate, its not generated by kneading; rather its already there as microscopic voids right in the flour itself but just need to be expanded and stabilized by the gluten membrane and other factors for gas cells expansion.
That was confirmed by the works of cereal chemists, Carlin, Baker, Mize IIRC
Consider for example a balloon. When you take a piece of rubber in the shape of a balloon you will find it limp and therefore thought to have no gas inside( it?s a common perception that a limp balloon has no gas); but not in the absolute term. Unless its evacuated under high vacuum conditions that it will resembles a thin strip of rubber sticking to the base of the container where it was evacuated.
the same also with bubble gum- there must be space between the lips and the teeth that serves as void where bubble gum can expand.
As applied to the dough the yeast don?t generate gas cells, rather they expand it! That is a fact in cereal chemistry as applied to leavening in baking either chemical or biological
These analogy was to signify as applied in the dough side that the voids that are responsible for gas cells are already there( latent) and it just need the right conditions for it to be expanded to confer the desirable attributes.
It must be important that the microscopic voids had a sort of a compartment or a cell that will be capable of being expanded due to the leavening gases generated.
Kneading enables the gluten to become elastic and so strengthen the membrane where it can be expanded by the additional gases generated during dough fermentation and proofing as well as the instantaneous conversion of water into steam during the baking process.
Replies
Best have a look at that
That looks really interesting. I'll have to read that when my daughter is sleeping tonight. Thanks for the link
Very good bit of reference that, Cheers Bill
Bill, very interesting reading, thanks. Matthew
[quote="Bill44"]
Note the comment on the relatonship between kneading and gas bubbles.
http://www.regional.org.au/au/roc/1988/roc198815.htm
[/quote]
Bill, the first thing which came into my mind was (like you) how does one explain Dan's gentler method which produces golf-ball sized bubbles in my bread? Methinks 'Stretching and Folding' is another name for Sexier Kneading.
Bill,
like many articles talking about the science of bread-making this one seems purely based upon commercial bread-making, and hence its utility for artisan baking is somewhat diminished.
I am sure that Graham and Chembake would have more to say on this.
Artisan bakers often deliberately use lower protein flour (viz Jack Lang's amazing experiments).
The theory that kneading is necessary to generate air pockets in the bread is not consistent with the demonstrable success of the short kneading method. (On the other hand the end product is also different, with an open irregular texture being desired by the artisan baker, whereas the commercial baker seeks a light, high volume, close textured loaf). So the theory needs modification.
cheers
Dom
Totaly agree with you Dom. No wonder that there are so many conflicting ideas flaoting around when a statement like that comes from a supposed expert.
Bill,
I am starting to mix part bread with all purpose flour to see the difference, and actually observed that in one of the last breads I used a very stiff starter
to activate my normal 100% flour/water and it started to get sort of dry after aday and the shelf life was less than that of that whole wheat Miche?
Got to get more into the technical rather than the aesthetic I suppose?
Jeremy
I always add 17% total flour weight of 10% plain flour to my standard white loaves, makes for a softer crumb, delicious.
[quote]
Artisan bakers often deliberately use lower protein flour (viz Jack Lang's amazing experiments).
[/quote]
Hi Dom that technical article posted by Bill is an informative document although there are some points that is contrary to certain areas of cereal chemistry as applied to cakes and biscuit baking; but as these topics are not related to sourdough I will not discuss about it much
Your concern that the protein articles is not useful to sourdough is an understatement.
Regardless of whatever breadmaking style you have to apply the principles remains the same.
We know that sufficient flour protein is important in being able to make a satisfactory bread and there is a minimum limits for protein content that a flour is considered acceptable to breadmaking.
Your thesis that strong flour protein is not required in artisan baking is reasonable because in Europe where this baking style originated is dominated by weaker wheat variety such as what is found in the native French T55 flour, German and UK flours .
Certain mixed grist flours that when calculated in protein content results in lower values still is able to yield acceptable bread. This means that flour protein is not the only factor for gas retention but also the fibrous component of flour counts supplies pentosans which swell in acidic conditions in the sourdough mimicking or even enhancing the gas retention qualities of gluten.
Yes artisan bakers deliberate uses lower protein or to be exact medium protein( flours having a protein content of 10-11% because they intuitively recognize that there are other factors that contribute to dough strength which often manifest in the acidic condition of the sourdough.
[quote]
>The theory that kneading is necessary to generate air pockets in the bread is not consistent >with the demonstrable success of the short kneading method. (On the other hand the end >product is also different, with an open irregular texture being desired by the artisan baker, <whereas>needs modification.
[/quote]
There is theoretical basis for that idea Dom
Actually if you look fundamentally how the dough gas cell originate, its not generated by kneading; rather its already there as microscopic voids right in the flour itself but just need to be expanded and stabilized by the gluten membrane and other factors for gas cells expansion.
That was confirmed by the works of cereal chemists, Carlin, Baker, Mize IIRC
Consider for example a balloon. When you take a piece of rubber in the shape of a balloon you will find it limp and therefore thought to have no gas inside( it?s a common perception that a limp balloon has no gas); but not in the absolute term. Unless its evacuated under high vacuum conditions that it will resembles a thin strip of rubber sticking to the base of the container where it was evacuated.
the same also with bubble gum- there must be space between the lips and the teeth that serves as void where bubble gum can expand.
As applied to the dough the yeast don?t generate gas cells, rather they expand it! That is a fact in cereal chemistry as applied to leavening in baking either chemical or biological
These analogy was to signify as applied in the dough side that the voids that are responsible for gas cells are already there( latent) and it just need the right conditions for it to be expanded to confer the desirable attributes.
It must be important that the microscopic voids had a sort of a compartment or a cell that will be capable of being expanded due to the leavening gases generated.
Kneading enables the gluten to become elastic and so strengthen the membrane where it can be expanded by the additional gases generated during dough fermentation and proofing as well as the instantaneous conversion of water into steam during the baking process.