Hello one and all,
I'm a new member interested in making sourdough bread but with a low gluten grain such as Barley. Please let me explain.
I'm an Aussie Naturopath interested in supplying a low gluten grain such as Barley(recipe) to my customers BUT with the added benefit of a partly predigested form of grain that my customers digestion will benefit from when using the soughdough process.
Please point me in the direction of a succesful moist and light Barley Sourdough recipe which has been tested, tried and true.
I've spent the last 2 months without sucess to achieve these needs so I can pass it on to my customers to use for themselves and grow this idea of making us all sourdough junkies. A worthy end I'm sure.
Why Barley? 'Cos it is one of the most underated grains AND THE LEAST EXPLOITED by humanity and hence the least allergic grains(safest) around. We deal with allergy alot as Naturopaths
Any ideas would be humbly and gratefully received.
Warmly Sourdough Sourpuss.
Replies
never tried a 100% barley loaf so I don't know.
I wonder if Jack Lang's intensive mixing process would be the way to go(eg his [url=http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=80782]spelt boule[/url]. (Are you out there Jack?)
I will have a go at a simple conversion and let you know if I have any success.
cheers
Dom
[img]http://www.pranicpulseoflife.com/BarleySourdough.JPG[/img]
Again the loaf is
Light
moist
a cob
and leaves a mild sweet aftertaste on the tongue.
Thankyou
[quote="sourpuss"]
[img]http://www.pranicpulseoflife.com/BarleySourdough.JPG[/img]
Again the loaf is
Light
moist
a cob
and leaves a mild sweet aftertaste on the tongue.
Thankyou
[/quote]
and a quite different colour to mine. White barley flour?
I wonder if he is using a different soft of barley flour. Some companies Doves Farm sell a "Barleycorn flour" that is mostly white bread flour,
http://www.dovesfarm-organic.co.uk/new-products.htm
They also sell a white spelt flour!
Well, after seeing the picture - I think you need to get somebody to work there for a while...
[quote="jacklang"]
White barley flour?
I wonder if he is using a different soft of barley flour. Some companies Doves Farm sell a "Barleycorn flour" that is mostly white bread flour,
http://www.dovesfarm-organic.co.uk/new-products.htm
...
[/quote]
Are you going to get some to try?
I've never used barley flour, so I can't really help.
Dan Lepard's book "The Handmade Loaf" has some recipes for barley bread in it, but they all contain some flour; they would have to since barley doesn't have any gluten to give structure to the bread. Plain barley doughs tend to pancakes, bannocks and the like.
Googling there are recipes that add bean flour.
Barley bread has a reputation for heaviness and indigestibility
Does he make low gluten claims? If not I suspect he may not maintain a separate barley starter, and uses a standard strong wheat flour levain/preferment. At least that is what I would do, and it would be easier in a bakery to just maintain one preferment.. The ingredients could then still say sourdough starter (or just sourdough), barley , water, salt, oil.
Is there a comma between the sourdough and the barley in the ingredient list?
But that is not barley flour, it is a mix:
Barleycorn flour = Blended wheat and barley flours with malted barley, barley flakes and flax seeds.
Could be any %age of barley really!
This a picture I found in one of the German forums
[img]http://www.chefkoch.de/pictures/fotoalben/53759a0a123d459a076b56e071f759c7/1849/medium_simg0938.jpg[/img]
Looks like a pretty dense crumb.
Makes me wonder whether the baker was completely honest and gave an above-board list of ingredients. Or perhaps, if he used barleycorn (or whatever mix), he simply stated barley for some particular reason.
p/s Carla, your (suggested) barleycorn mix sounds delish!!! Oh...I think you have to put your url link in between URL codes, rather than IMG. Yup, that bread looks dense.
Barley must contain some gluten, since those who are genuinely allergic to gluten (coeliac disease) cannot eat barley (or rye or oats or wheat).
However it doesn't seem to have very much. The dough that I made last night has little of the elasticity that I am used to. I doubt very much whether it will make anything except a cakey brick
will post results
dom
Carla, you're missing a / in your last [img] tag. It should look like [/img] instead of [img].
[quote="Maedi"]
Carla, you're missing a / in your last [img] tag. It should look like [/img] instead of [img].
[/quote]
yes, of course!
you are right maedi - have fixed it now!
Jack, Graham You are all very kind. again thankyou.
The label I'm reading directly off says as follows:
Ingredients:
Organic barley flour, Filtered water, Organic barley bran(5%), Organic barley sourdough, sea salt, olive oil.
Any further thoughts please?
[url=http://www.danlepard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4132#4132]This[/url] may be interesting to you. Perhaps, Mick will chime in.
Glad to contribute to the community.
........especially on a lazy Saturday.
Say, when are we going to get (pix of) pancakes from you, Maedi?
And yes, Barley still has some gluten.
I'm not sure exactly how much though.
Warmly Sourpuss
Next time I have pancakes and a camera.
Duh...........lemme try this again.
So, Maedi...will you be making pancakes for a nice family Sunday breakfast or brunch tomorrow? Use a camera phone, if you don't have a camera with you. I know teens can't do without one these days.
*Apologies to OP for thread hijack*
I don't care for phones, and they produce images of poor quality. I don't think we will be consuming pancakes this morning. Maybe next week.
Teck Poh thought I might be able to add something but to be honest I haven't got much further and I was reading this thread with interest hoping to gain something from it.
We are still developing links with Bangor University (North Wales) where they are experimenting with naked barley. I don't understand this much but I gather it has no hull and so is a lot lighter than regular barley. If I discover anything I will post it.
Fiendishly busy trying to set up this bakery.
Best wishes to you all,
Mick
Frankly, Mick, that was just to lure you out. Missed your quips. But we know how busy you are at the moment and in the near future I'm sure. All the best to you!
Have I told you before that I like you and the way you think, Maedi? A teen with a mind of his own, yeah!
You're not to bad yourself TP.
I just can't understand those that think so differently. There way though.
I thought that's what you were up to. I'll try and do an update on Dan's site. Been an interesting week.
Mick
Sourpuss here again.
Well all, so much for soaking the grains 'cos it seems to destroy any real levels of gluten. Hence no rising or lightness.
I'm determined NOT to add any gums etc to the mix as I must try to stick to my bakers ingredient list even tho' it might be spurious.
Another level of inquiry it seems to me is to try and search for a successful recipe for a gluten free sourdough mix and then adapt it to Bareley.
Any ideas here forum?
Warmly Sourpuss.
Love your avatar, Mick! I see you've been reduced to a desk job, lol. Hope you get down to some real baking soon with all your recruits.
I still think the answer might be in the techniques used to make 100% rye loaves (for example gelatinising a rye/water mix)
I have little experience with these, but might have a play in the next few weeks.
alternatively - what about a barm?
cheers
Dom
Much as anticipated, this loaf was not exactly a success.
I used (for a 1/2 sized loaf)
90g starter (I used a wheat starter because I don't have a barley starter at the moment)
100g water
60g orange juice
250g barley flour
5g salt
10g olive oil
The dough was crumbly, and had little stretchiness
The baked loaf
[img]http://sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/4499-2/barley+sd.JPG[/img]
very crumbly in texture
I haven't taken a photo of the crumb, but it is heavy and dense.
Minimal rise during proving or in the oven (well a little)
Great flavour though...
This was a bit akin to Jack's suggestion (ie using a regular preferment) - though according to the label, the baker in question doesn't cheat and use a wheat flour based starter.
I would have thought that a barley starter would make the loaf even crumblier and heavier?
I don't know where you would go from here
Has anyone else tried?
cheers
Dom
OK, I'll pick up some barley flour from the local wholefood co-operative and try, but I don't hold out much hope...
Hi,
Have scanned some other baking forums and the German sourdough forum has some barley recipes, however all that treid baking with barley mentioned that barley produces quite a firm loaf. So I am not sure how this guy makes a fluffy one. And a cob at that too!
They did some trials and found that it makes quite a big difference in the final product though if you use a proper barley sourdough. They fed a rye sourdough with barley flour over several 3-step-Detmold stages and came up with a nice moist loaf. It was baked in a tin so the dough could be softer.
Shall I try and find out more for you?
Hi again one and all,
I'm 'sourpuss'-the natruopath who started this sourdough Barley thread.
I'm absolutely amazed at the efforts you're all making on behalf of my allergic customers. A Big thank you thus far.
I've been doing some further sluthing myself of late and am beginning to think that we may get a better 'rise' if we start from the grains themselves being soaked overnight and using the soaked water as part of the sourdough process itself. This soaking effect releases all sorts of enzymes from the grain anyway as part of the grains natural 'sprouting process'.
The soaked grains could then be 'food processed' into a more finely ground state then used in the sourdough proces itself also.
Why am I thinking this way?
Well I've tried perhaps a dozen different recipes since my journey began a few months ago and ALL were an abject failure even WITh a proving oven, even WITH extra added bacteria cultures brought in from queensland AND different forms of natural sweeteners- Honey molasses, etc, even WITH the freshest biodynamic grains home ground in my own mill so I get THE freshest flour. Nothing has worked AT ALL.
HOWEVER, in retrospect all the efforts sharted one common thread...ALL used the finished flour AND NOT THE SOAKED GRAIN.
My gut says This may be the secret!
Pease all, what are your thoughts?
Again thankyou one and all.
I would think you would get worse results by pre-soaking.
Barley contains large amounts of amalyse that converts starches to sugars, but also makes the dough slacker and weaker. Pre-soaking will increase this effect.
Adding sweeteners won't do much for the rise either, except make the dough sweeter.
A guess is that vitamin C or a similar oxidising agent, the acid int the sourdough, and technique that maximises the volume may help.
Carla,
I think you may be on the right track.
It had occurred to me that I had used the wrong approach, and that probably the sort of techniques used for 100% rye sourdough would be the way to go ie
long preferments
high hydration
long slow bake
?wrapping loaf for 24 or 48 hours before slicing
but I have little experience with these sort of loaves
Dom
[quote="SourDom"]
Carla, I think you may be on the right track.
It had occurred to me that I had used the wrong approach, and that probably the sort of techniques used for 100% rye sourdough would be the way to go.
[/quote]
Yes, according to what I have read so far barley will behave very much like rye, as it has very little gluten (like rye) and lots of slime-producing stuff in it (like rye).
The general consensus seemed to be that a good bread can be made with pure barley sourdough which must be started with a good rye starter to prevent the barley/water mix being invaded by "foreigners".
However what I have read over and over is that the [b]taste[/b] is not very nice and bordering on bitter.
So I would be very interested to know how this baker is actually getting around all these obstacles of heaviness and taste to produce a [b]cob loaf[/b] of all things.
I wonder if a sample given to a lab would come back with some results as to the ingredients. Other than that you will need to put an apprentice into the premises!!
Once again thankyou all for your comments.
May I assure the group that the taste of this Barley Sourdough bread I have IS Soft, light, VERY moist AND leaves a mild after taste of sweetness on the tongue to boot!
By the tone of my replies thus far it would seem this bakers Barley loaf is a minor-miracle.
Would it help if I posted a pic of same?
Warmly Sourpuss.
OK I tried. I made this like my spelt bread, but 100% organic barley flour.
(OK, 0.1% of wheat starter, refreshed with barley flour twice)
[img]http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/4513-1/DSC02637.JPG[/img]
A few observations:
Its not like wheat dough, the dough is more like thick bubbly custard Forget stretch and fold, or any of those other gluten development techniques, they just knock out the gas, and don't change the dough texture. There is no "give" to the dough at all, its entirely inelastic.
Hydration is important. Too little, and it will just sit there, too much and the gas escapes.
I suspect the acid in the sourdough i important.
Taste is OK, better toasted. Slight bitter aftertaste, but I expect it depends on variety
Some oven spring, but small compared to even wholemeal wheat dough
Fermentation is very slow
But, is it soft....and light? Don't sound so.
the crumb looks similar to the one that I made.
Heavy and crumbly rather than soft and light
I'm not sure where to go from here, though I still wonder if a technique akin to that used for traditional European rye loaves might work better.
(however I don't think that they are usually particularly soft or light)
cheers
Dom
Hi Jack etall.
Once again, thankyou for your efforts on my clients behalf.
I'll see if I can post a pic of the bread I'm currently enjoying in the next few days with a scaling prop...Say a box of matches to help you get an idea of its dimensions.
Warmly Sourpuss.
I stumbled across this post searching after my regular supplier of a barley sourdough failed to deliver this week. Very disappointing. Hoping this is just a short term occurrence. I think if people knew how good this bread tasted it would be a big hit. Just wondering if there have been any updates on the success or otherwise of making a pure barley sourdough at home. My attempts have always floundered.
Thanks
Michael
Hi Michaeld,
Well it's quite a story, this barley thing.
I've shown my purchased loaf to 2 bakers of many yrs standing and BOTH say it's rye. Therefore impossible with barley. However my intuition says it can be done & a part of me says the ingredients are correct however I have run out of ideas & gave up around xmas 2006.
Well maybe not given up, just suspended!
My brother was keen to research further & approached the CSIRO to do an independent proof of the type of grain. However he baulked at the $2000 price tag to identify the grain.
Further there has been no real leads from this forum to date AND I am not willing to continue to spend some 5-6 dollars per loaf....No matter how good the bread may be.
Two things I did learn were:
- The barley flour absolutely MUST be very finely sieved
- There are 2 types of barley
[*] The standard grain we all feed our chooks
[*] A fine Barley grain....I've allegedly seen it imported from Poland. Considering the fine & light coloured look of the bread---THIS may be the key...However I could NOT find any significant amount.
PS: THis fine barley grain may not be barley at all...perhaps just another name for a 'bastard' type of grain..
Well there it is! Any thoughts?
Sourpuss.
C'mon forum
I'm sure wiser heads than I will pipe up later, but I'm wondering whether you've set yourself an unobtainable goal. I'm not sure that a loaf made exclusively from low gluten flour would ever be described as "light". Yummy, tasty, nutritious, filling, moreish, fantastic are all words I'd use to describe a well made 100% rye bread, for instance, but not light. I've never experiemented with Barley so I could well be wrong. Just my 2 cents worth.
Matthew
Thanks Graham. Thanks for the warning.
However I KNOW IT IS POSSIBLE(not shouting) 'cos I eat it every day.
I buy it wholesale from a baker 100Km from me BUT he WILL not let me purchase his recipe to give to others OR allow me to offer him a % of any sales for his recipe either.
In fact so 'crassed-off' by his selfishness am I that I refuse to recommend his address to others so they can purchase their own from him if they wish. Although being over 100Km away from him I dont get many folk to visit his premises.
So yes, his bread is a cobb, it is light, it is moist and ONLY contains sourdough barley, Olive oil, honey, filtered water and sea salt...Or so the label says?
Again any ideas from this group would be hugely appreciated.
BTW. If I can I'd rather not have to resort to xanthum gum as an additive to help improve the 'raising' capacity of the loaf.
Warmly Sourpuss
I think I've tried eating this very same bread - with dramatic results. I am severely allergic to wheat (anaphylaxis), but can normally tolerate barley and oats quite happily. I bought a barley sourdough cobb containing the ingredients you listed, despite being surprised to find such a "light" loaf that was wheat-free. However, within half an hour of eating a slice of the bread, I had a severe reaction of the kind previously only induced by wheat. It seems to me that there may have been some undeclared wheat in this loaf. I will certainly not buy it again. In future I will trust my instincts more and the ingredients list less!
Just for kicks I made a sourdough barley loaf.
To me it is like working with 100% rye dough.