hook mixer?

My food processor for bread mixing has 10 prongs and it is just about impossible to overknead with it. It also tells me when the dough is developed. It's very cheap and you just need to wash it well before and after use, but I must admit it needs a bit of maintenence at the moment.

[quote="Bill44"]
My food processor for bread mixing has 10 prongs and it is just about impossible to overknead with it.
[/quote]

It sounds like the word "food processor" is used for any type of food processing machine then? Not just the food processors that are sold in shops under that name??

Like this one [url=http://www.noelleeming.co.nz/wcsstore/images/items/59778_lg.png][b]here[/b][/url]

This is a Cuisinart Food Processor, yes it has a plastic blade also a steel blade. I used the steel blade for anything other than raisin fruit bread for that I used the plastic blade.
And my bread always turned out good.
I also have two Kenwood stand mixers one is old well 40 years old the
other one is about 25 years old.
But I only use my DLX now for breads. qahtanQ

[img]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/qahtan/7311foodprocessors.jpg[/img]

This loaf was made in Cuisinart Food Processor. In fact you can see it at the back of the loaf....)) qahtan

[img]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/qahtan/bake/pullman.jpg[/img]

Carla,
Bill bildete einen Witz, seine Maschine mit 10 Zinken sind die Finger auf seiner Hand!

Jeremy

[quote="Jeremy"]
Carla,
Bill bildete einen Witz, seine Maschine mit 10 Zinken sind die Finger auf seiner Hand!Jeremy
[/quote]
Translation:- Bill was making a joke, the machine with ten prongs are the fingers on his hands.

[quote="Jeremy"]
Carla, Bill bildete einen Witz, seine Maschine mit 10 Zinken sind die Finger auf seiner Hand!
[/quote]

Thanks jeremy for spelling it out for me!
Must have needed it

Have you changed your flour, I know this is most likely your first thought.

Post us your recipe.

I think you are trying too hard, leave it for a couple days then try again.

qahtan.

PS I don't do this window pane, or hydration thing, and I don't have any problems.
I think it is mainly a (man) thing......

Croc,

your dough will be a lot softer after resting for ten minutes, but will then firm up with kneading. It won't approach this sort of stretchiness until it has had three or four kneads (with breaks).

For your own interest, you might like to try this stretch test before each knead - see how the dough changes with each knead/rest period.

However once you have got the hang of it you won't need to do the windowpane test any more.

you will get there...!

cheers
Dom

that sounds right Croc

the dough will firm up again, but relax after you leave it.

So - do the first three or four kneads, separated by ten minutes.
Then leave the dough for 30 minutes, and give it a turn (also known as a stretch and fold - see that tutorial on proving).

For your pre-ferment dough (a la slowdough), turn a couple of times (letting the dough rest for 45 minutes in between), then shape for a final rise before baking.

cheers
Dom

[quote="Croc"]
this is to the dot what i did (by your blog)
is it possible that electric owen is the problem?
[/quote]

Well Croc you DO have us baffled here. I wonder if it is the flour you are using. Did you change the brand or something? Other than that I have NO ideas any more.

I think you may find that, this being a [b][i]sourdough[/i] [/b]forum, you have been getting advice that applies to the slow sourdough methods and not to the faster commercial yeast that I think you are using at the moment.

Croc,

if your yeast is active, but you are getting no rise in the oven I wonder if the loaf is overproved.

(on the other hand I do wonder about your yeast if your loaf is getting no rise. Is it dried or fresh?)

as Bill suggests, most of us here bake sourdough more often than yeasted breads. So the timing involved is quite different, while the principles are the same.

Lets go back a few steps.
Which recipe are you using? - the one that slowdough posted, one of your own, or the one that is on my blog?

Can you describe exactly the process, timings, oven temp etc that you are using? If you can post us a photo that might help.

cheers
Dom

Croc,

you are using Laucke flour, which everyone one this forum loves, so it is not a flour problem.
Your dried yeast sounds like it shouldn't be a problem

humour me.

Do you mind using the preferment [url=http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/recipes/]recipe[/url] that I used in the [url=http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/2006/07/01/beginners-blog-kneading-and-mixing/]tutorial?[/url] I know that one works, and have baked it recently. (I am sure that Slowdough knows what he is talking about, but I would prefer to start with something that I know)

Lets work through that recipe and tutorial and see where we get to?

If I get a chance (am working till midnight Saturday night!) I will try to bake it on Sunday too

cheers
Dom

[quote="Croc"]
i was thinking about doing video of my bread making ...
[/quote]

what an excellent idea! Brings the forum to a new level!

[quote="Croc"]
i got breville wizz mix profesional with 700Watts motor that comes with nice hook and great side and bottom reach while mixing even small size dough. [b]on slow speed it takes about 10min [/b] to get it done and dough doesn't get hot as it used to with simple food procesor, that was very nasty to my dough so i never used it.
[/quote]

I would suggest Croc that you [b]overknead[/b] your dough!

You can NEVER make yeast dough in a foodprocessor!

And if you knead a dough in any machine for 10 Minutes I am sure that the gluten is dead after that! Especially if you use just 500g of flour!!

That would explain why you have problems with your dough.

Just mix it so everything is nicely distributed in the dough, then let it sit for half an hour to an hour to rise, then knead it by hand for 3 or 4 minutes - and you should have no problems with 500g of flour to do that by hand! - divide and shape your rolls or your bread, let rise a second time and bake.

Good luck!

[quote="carla"]
You can NEVER make yeast dough in a foodprocessor!
[/quote]
There would be plenty of people that would disagree with that apparently.
[quote="carla"]
And if you knead a dough in any machine for 10 Minutes I am sure that the gluten is dead after that! Especially if you use just 500g of flour!!
[/quote]
I'm using a Kenwood Chef KM210 and 10 minutes would be the average for me, of course it depends on what speed I'm mixing at and the size of the dough. I've mixed doughs in a 20ltr Hobart for 16 minutes which puts considerably more energy into the dough then my kenwood. Without more information I fail to see how you can be [i]sure[/i] Croc is overdeveloping the gluten...

[quote="KazaKhan?®©"]
[Without more information I fail to see how you can be [i]sure[/i] Croc is overdeveloping the gluten...
[/quote]
When you use a mixer how do you know how anything is going?

[quote="Bill44"]
When you use a mixer how do you know how anything is going?
[/quote]
What...

[quote="Bill44"]
[quote="KazaKhan?®©"][Without more information I fail to see how you can be [i]sure[/i] Croc is overdeveloping the gluten...
[/quote]
When you use a mixer how do you know how anything is going? [/quote]

I think you mean the feel of the dough, yeh?

I am starting to feel the difference when I knead, need to bake more often though

[quote="forno"]
think you mean the feel of the dough, yeh?

I am starting to feel the difference when I knead, need to bake more often though
[/quote]
If thats the case I stop kneading every so often and check the dough temperature and gluten development...

[quote="KazaKhan?®©"]
[quote="forno"] think you mean the feel of the dough, yeh?

I am starting to feel the difference when I knead, need to bake more often though
[/quote]
If thats the case I stop kneading every so often and check the dough temperature and gluten development...[/quote]

So what am I looking for with reference to gluten development?

One of the problems with processing a sourdough for 10 minutes in a mixer is that you can have it developed when it still has so many hours of developement left to go. It developes more with bulk fermentation and then more with proofing and since sourdoughs take so much longer, by the time you are done, it is overdeveloped. You can develop a yeasted dough this way because it doesn't have so much time involved with further develpement. Does that make any sense? I never mix over five minutes for my doughs, and by feel, it is usually more like 3 - 4 minutes
after autolyse. Of course you can mix a wetter dough longer, so the time depends on what bread you are making too.

Croc,

I rest my case. (see comment in beginners forum re: many different opinions)

Let me try to put this into something that makes sense without upsetting anyone.
When starting out it can be very beneficial to mix by hand as you get a better understanding of what the dough is doing at each stage of development in the mixing process.

It is also true that in longer fermentation doughs both sourdough and yeasted doughs that the dough continues its development thru the rest of the fermentation period, but normally mixing times are adjusted to suit, and also the final loaf characteristic requirements are taken into consideration such as openess of texture, and loaf volume etc.

This is where it can start to get confusing so lets keep it simple. I have a very firm philosophy when it comes to what you do and don't do. Making beautiful bread should be a fun rewarding experience and although at times it will be very frustrating, it will ultimately be rewarding as you solve your dilema's and feel proud of your achievements, therefor in order to make it as enjoyable as possible you need have it fit within your lifestyle.

If you wish to use your mixer because it makes your life easier and as a result the whole experience more enjoyable then DO IT!
Great bread can be made either way, it comes down to what fulfills your needs as an Artisan as to what you do or don't do.

So in answer to you original question, yes you can get a great result using your hook mixer if you wish. Use the same recipe as i gave you for your yeasted bread and mix it in your mixer using the same principles of development as previously discussed, so making sure that the dough is able to be stretched out to make a "gluten window" this will require you to stop the mixer at different stages and test the dough using this method. you should aim for a finished dough temp of 24c (at end of mixing) This may take a couple of attempts because your surroundings will be unique. if the dough is a little cold simply extend the bulk proof stage a little, if its warm shorten it slightly. Then just do everything else the same from there, once you have this down pat then we can start to experiment with fold and turn, autolyze,etc.

I hope this has cleared a few things up for you, let us know,

Cheers,

Slowdough

[quote="Croc"]
this was in regards to yeasted bread, i didn't look at sourdough and hook mixer yet and will have to wait and see this one once my starter is good to go
[/quote]
Indeed, I was thinking of the yeasted stuff above as well. I don't fully develop the dough when bulk fermenting, should've mentioned that...

Croc,
If you like have a look at [url=http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/2006/07/01/beginners-blog-kneading-and-mixing/]a tutorial I have written on kneading and mixing[/url]

This is windowpaning in a dough mixed by hand (and kneaded using Dan Lepard's method)

[img]http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/files/2006/07/DSCN1155.JPG[/img]

cheers
Dom

Hi Croc,

If your able it would be great to post some photo's of your loaves, so then easier to make appropriate judgements on faults, otherwise i feel like i'm only really guessing.

This way we should be able to make a better assessment of the loaves and give much better feed back. There is a big difference in the understanding of terminology amongst everyone on the forum depending on what they've read and who they trust and follow.

I'm going away for a few weeks and when i return i will learn how to put some photo's up, so i can show you the differences about what i'm descibing as well.

Cheers,

Slowdough

I beg to differ with you, yes you most certainly can make bread with a food processor, I did for a few years before I bought my D L X,.

As for kneading for 10 minutes , well as long as you are not going at top speed, 8 mins is about the average for the DLX..... but on the first speed. qahtan....

[quote="qahtan"]
Carla,,,, bread making in Food Processor - I beg to differ with you, yes you most certainly can make bread with a food processor, I did for a few years before I bought my D L X,.

As for kneading for 10 minutes , well as long as you are not going at top speed, 8 mins is about the average for the DLX..... but on the first speed. qahtan....
[/quote]

Maybe we talk about different things here?
What do YOU call a food processor? The things I know as foodprocessors have sharp little blades which cut and blend. And I cannot believe that this is the right tool to mix a dough.

And as for the time to knead: I have a Kenwood major which I never use any more as the gluten is dead after about 5 minutes of kneading with that machine! I use my hands now.

But then you might all have differnt machines to mine.

And yes - some pictures would be good to make better recommendations.