I've been turning out some breads I'm pretty happy with since getting my starters going a while back, but I am finding that the lovely elastic texture of the crumb is only lasting for a day....actually, maybe a little less. eg: I baked a loaf that was ready to eat by 8.30pm last night, and it was beautiful. However, by breakfast this morning, it had already gotten a bit dry. Still nice, but it had lost that elasticity of the night before.
I store my bread in a heavy brown paper bag, folded over from the top several times. Any tips from experienced sourdough folk on an optimum storing environment, please?
Or could it be that I am over-baking (although it sure doesn't seem like it when the loaf is fresh and has gone cold enough for the first slice)? Or maybe there's something else I'm doing in my baking that is allowing the bread to dry out faster than it should?
Or could it be that my expectations are too high, and that all sourdough bread loses that initial delightful springy texture overnight?
I store my bread in a heavy brown paper bag, folded over from the top several times. Any tips from experienced sourdough folk on an optimum storing environment, please?
Or could it be that I am over-baking (although it sure doesn't seem like it when the loaf is fresh and has gone cold enough for the first slice)? Or maybe there's something else I'm doing in my baking that is allowing the bread to dry out faster than it should?
Or could it be that my expectations are too high, and that all sourdough bread loses that initial delightful springy texture overnight?
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Replies
I'll try storing the bread in a cotton bag - thanks.
Johnny,
Very interesting post on chia seed gel. Once I've chased down some chia seed, I'll certainly try adding a bit of gel and see how it goes. Thanks for the link, and also for the Wikihow one.
Cheers
Ross
Lily,
I don't use a mixer - I do all my breads by hand. And like you, I fold and turn, rather than knead.
I'm coming to the conclusion that just about all lighter sourdough breads struggle to retain the lovely elasticity of that first day. It's still nice on the 2nd day and later, though, so not really an issue. I was really just wondering about recommended storage strategies that might keep the bread in optimum condition.
Cheers
Ross
I've just made the best two loaves of bread in the last 6 months. Recently I've been using the dough hook on the Mixmaster, but like Lily (and as Ross does) I went back to hand kneading. I used the Dan Lepard 10 second knead spread over a long period as described in his book The Handmade Loaf. I also used his recipe for the Mill Loaf but I changed the quantities slightly to 100g rye, 200g wholemeal and 700g white flour. By using less wholemeal the dough was wetter than normal, wholemeal really seems to soak up the water. These loaves look and taste great, the crust is 'crusty' without being hard and the crumb is moist and stays moist for 2 days and is very edible even on the third day. It's either that or the gods were smiling on me when I made the bread ;) Tomorrow I shall try to recreate the above loaves.
I just read Bread Matters by Andrew Whitley and he has a chapter talking about storing bread and different uses for it as it ages (including some recipies).
I agree that bread that the character of the bread changes over the days, but I really like the flavour the next day, even if the texture has changed. Then a bit later it may be a bit dry for a sandwich but still really good for toast or eating with soup.
I generally freeze any bread that won't get eaten within 24 hours, either sliced or whole, but nothing keeps bread the same as when it's just cooled. Andrew Whitley reckons that freezing adds 24 hours to the age of the bread, so if you freezed it as soon as it's cooled and then thaw it a week later it's like bread that is on it's 2nd day.
My advice is to appreciate the character of your bread as it ages and find different uses for the different phases and to use the freezer to suspend the aging process for a period for any excess.
Matthew
At this time of the year we make lots of soups, so the bread gets used with them as well as for sandwiches and morning toast. Toasted sourdough is delicious.
Kerry
I store in a plastic bag and it keeps pretty well. I personally don't much like the very fluffy texture on the day of baking - it also doesn't seem to taste so sour as on the next day when it is "set".
I freeze loaves as I bake 4 loaves about 850 g or so in a batch.
I generally eat them simply unfrozen and it's true- they come out like bread in its second day after baking. You can of course give the whole thawed loaf 10 mins or so in an oven, which gives them a hard crust (if you like that) and refreshes the inside to that moist, just-baked state. But I generally don't bother.
One thing, if bread is a little hard/dry and I want to eat it without toasting is to whack a couple slices in the mocrowave for 10 secs or so, and they refresh (to an extent).
It's been interesting selling bread to a local Swedish-owned shop as my Swedish friend prefers the sourdough the day after baking (it's easier to slice too) but her Aussie customers are quite put out to buy day old bread. It is such a personal thing but I think the Aussies are comparing the sourdough with their usual yeasted fluffy stuff and the Swede is reminiscing about bread from Home!
I agree with the above comments, especially with Matthew's your bread for it's own character comment.
I store leftover bread in a plastic container or bag to preserve some of the fresh 'sticky' character of the fresh loaf.
Oh, that's not the case with me (although who knows - it may well be with some of the Aust customers you refer to). My sourdough home baking is a recent development, but I've been into good bread for a long time. In fact, I've been harping on about the paucity of REALLY good bread in this country since spending that year in Germany in 84/85, which taught me a massive amount about good bread. I moved on from the general Aussie perception of "bread" many years ago.
That said, I heard a fascinating radio segment about sourdough on Radio National a few days ago. The claim was that sourdough and artisan bread is enjoying a big resurgence in Oz; in fact, some acclaimed Aust sourdough bakers are currently educating the Brits as to the superiority of sourdough and artisan baking generally. So my comment about the Aussie perception of "bread" is probably less appropriate now than in decades past. I think we're more food-savvy generally in this country than was imaginable even 15 years ago.
As has been stated, it's all about personal preference, and for me, there is nothing to beat that first-day sourdough crumb texture - and striving to avoid a whiny tone I have to emphasise that's got nothing to do with over-familiarity with TipTop sandwich fluff! I was seeking storage tips to try to prolong that first-day elasticity to a second day, but I do take the point that the less springy texture and developed flavours of the second day (and on) have their own appeal.
I've tried the plastic bag storage, but thanks for the input lily.
Cheers
Ross
I've been buying it for some years now from local bakeries and markets, but was getting fed up with paying $6 a loaf so decided to try to make it myself and am so glad I did. As well as the satisfaction of making and eating my own bread, I get to know exactly what went into it, no preservatives, etc.
Sorry Ross for chucking in the general comments about the local area here on your interesting thread!
I completely identify with you there, Kerry. Sourdough bread baking really is a whole new chapter in my life for the same reasons you've expressed. Going by the sourdough baking forums and blogs I've been poring over for the last few months, this is true of just about everyone who gets into it! I'm just grateful for great sites like this one, and all the support and sense of community that goes with it.
[quote=lily]Sorry Ross for chucking in the general comments about the local area here on your interesting thread![/quote] Absolutely NO apologies required, Lily. My "interesting thread" only became interesting when others like yourself started responding. Your comments, general or otherwise, are appropriate and most welcome.
With reference to your request for storage tips to prolong the first day texture my comments amounted to a long winded way of saying that I don't have any! I've never been able to discover a way to capture and preserve that first day crumb (without any additives in the loaf). I guess that is what makes the freshness special.
My only solution would be to bake every day and eat it all - now there's an idea!
Matthew
My only solution would be to bake every day and eat it all - now there's an idea!
Matthew[/quote]
Yep - and a good idea it is, Matthew! I've actually been thinking of something like that, but my partner and I, much as we love home-baked sourdough breads, couldn't eat enough to stay on top of production! I've been thinking of buttonholing a couple of friends with the proposal that they take half a loaf each time I bake, but as with home-grown veges, gratitude can't always be assumed to flow from such an offer!
I've had worse dilemmas, though!
Hi Kerry
Your Rolled Oat and Apple Bread sounds yum. Will try that one once I have Lepard's book - thanks!
I've experienced that wet-dough anxiety you refer to, also - in my case with ciabatta and a LOVELY sourdough banana bread (will post the banana bread recipe if anyone expresses interest). Both turned out fine if you don't factor in aesthetics in the case of the ciabatta, which missed the mark when I was feverishly trying to get it on to the heated pizza stone...it stuck to back of the the metal cookie sheet I was using as a peel, despite copious dustings of semolina, and ended up elongated with one end dripping off the edge of the stone! Tasted great...but will be aiming for a little more finesse next time.
The banana bread, fortunately, required only a low-anxiety transference to a bread tin.
Try your local library for the book, I liked it so much bought it from bookdepository.co.uk which has free postage world-wide. My local library has an excellent selection of bread making books.
Not that it matters, but did you mean to address your post above to Matthew, or me?
Whatever, yeah, know what you mean about using yeast as well as leaven being an issue. I have to admit, it is for me a little, I suppose because I find it so fascinating that you can invoke wild yeast simply by mixing flour and water and waiting: build it and they will come! Adding nasty cheap commercial yeast (heh heh) seems disrespectful!
That said, I've just mixed in a little starter with my regular pizza dough, so I guess I am able to get over this purist thingo without trying too hard! Oh, and I do add baking powder/soda to my sourdough pancake mix. Purist? What's a purist? GodDAMN - a healthy, gorgeous finished product is all that matters, innit?
Seriously, you've sold me on Dan Lepard. Ta for the bookdepository link, too - will check that out.
Cheers
Ross
I'll post "my" banana bread recipe on its own thread in the Recipes section. I have placed "my" in inverted commas because I adapted the recipe from someone else who adapted it from the original source - Don and Myrtle Holm's Sourdough Cookbook. Anyway, I can highly recommend it. Initially I made it just to use up some starter I would otherwise have discarded, and a couple of bananas that were a bit too over-ripe to peel without making a mess. It was so damned nice, I now build up starter just to make it!
I agree with you on the flavour of sourdough pizza bases - much better. Pizzas were my route to sourdough bread baking, actually. Over months of experimenting I had developed a commercial yeast-based dough that I thought was about as good as pizza gets in a domestic oven. I was even inspired to write an extensive couple of posts on pizza on my blog:
Pizza - A Tale of Evolution
Making Your Own GREAT Pizzas At Home
Then, after I started baking sourdough bread, I happened upon this recipe for sourdough pizza. I've made it twice and there is no doubt the flavour is superior to my commercial yeast-based crusts (which are actually pretty good...just not as good as the sourdough base!). However, I do still like some aspects of my original pizza base, such as the texture. The sourdough crust is a little chewier. That doesn't make it better or worse - just different.
Also, I've started refrigerating my commercial yeast pizza dough overnight and that has enhanced the flavour somewhat. I've also started experimenting with reducing the dry yeast and adding some rye/white flour starter, which worked well. Will take the dry yeast down even further next bake and add another tablespoon of starter. The aim is to strike a balance that will yield the best of both worlds, but I suspect the best flavour will still come from a pure sourdough crust.
Whoa - got myself badly sidetracked there, so will cease forthwith.
Cheers!
Ross
Normal 0
Very nice open moist crumb that stays moist for days. The crust is much softer than my normal bread but that's all right with me because the moist crumb is wonderful.
If anyone's interested I'll post a formula.
BTW the http://www.bookdepository.co.uk is an excellent way to get your baking books cheaper. I normally go with Amazon and buy second-hand but with free postage world-wide the bookdepository may be a better deal.
cheers,Johnny
I'm certainly interested in the recipe. Maybe it would be a good idea in the interests of keeping the forum content organised if you posted it under its own heading in the Recipes section, as I did with the banana bread? Anyway, looking forward to it...
BTW, I like the look of your bread board. Woolworths had some bamboo ones from China on special last week that looked a lot like the one in your pic. I almost bought one, but held back because I thought it might splinter when subjected to knife cuts over time. If yours is one of the bamboo ones, would be interested in your assessment. If it's fine, makes no sense to buy a Euro-sourced one at 4 times the price, or more.
Cheers
Ross
Cheers!
That's the only bargain at bookdepository amongst the bread books on my wanna-have list, though.
I checked those books currently stored away in my Amazon shopping basket against the bookdepository prices (probably more than I'll end up buying, they include multiple titles by Hamelman, Leader, Reinhart and Glezer) - in all cases, Amazon was significantly cheaper, and in some cases a lot more so.
My conclusion: Lepard's book excepted, Amazon will usually still work out considerably cheaper even including shipping costs (unless you only order 1 book, maybe, in which case the shipping charges might reduce the savings so the end price is similar to bookdepository's).
Will be keeping an eye on the bookdepository's offerings in the future, nevertheless, so thanks again, folks, for bringing the site to attention.
Cheers
There's a bit of oddity re:book depository (I LOVE them), though. Check out both the .co.uk site and the .com site, because there are price discrepancies, sometimes quite significant. They have 10% off their books till Sep 10, so, hurry, hurry!
Your oat and apple bread looks delicious, Johnny!
Best
TP
The cheaper prices on the .co.uk site notwithstanding, though, Amazon's in front for all the other books I am after, even factoring in shipping costs (but that's assuming orders of a few, not just one or two).
I've got an Excel spreadsheet showing a comparison between the two bookdepository sites and Amazon re the prices of the books I want. I took a screen snapshot of it to post here in case it was of interest to others, but can't work out how to upload the image. Don't want to first post it amongst my gallery bread pics, and I don't think there's any other way to get it to show up here, is there?
BTW, TeckPoh, I'd have thought your prices at Borders in KL would be comparable with either bookdepository store or Amazon? I know when I was in KL a couple of years back, the books were much cheaper than in Oz, generally speaking, no doubt because there is some protection system in place here that adds a tariff (or whatever) to imported publications. That protection is about to be lifted, so will be interesting to see how it affects imported book prices. (Not so good for local writers, however, so I'm clapping with only one hand).
Cheers all.
Hmm....the books here, at MPH, Borders or Kinokuniya, are more or less 3.5X the cost of the US$ price on the cover. I don't buy from our local bookshops at all unless there's a sale (at least 15% off); besides, they don't usually have the books I want. I find online shopping cheaper and, well, it gets delivered to my doorstep in 4-10 days. I think I mentioned somewhere in the forum before that www.newbookscheap.com is also a good place to buy books...the books are half-priced and you choose your preferred shipping mode...just don't choose the really cheap ones...I've a couple of books which never reached me, sniff. If the book is not on the list, give David the ISBN and he'll get it for you. However, I'm really liking www.bookdepository.co.uk (oh...the books I got were cheaper than from .com
) with its free shipping, and, have been getting 3 rounds of books in as many weeks....they are very efficient and responsive.
Would be interested to see your price comparison spreadsheet. Send Maedi a note.
Best
TP
At the moment we don't have a way to upload photos directly in posts (feature coming soon!) but if you send your screenshot to me, I can insert it into your existing post for you.
Please email [email protected]
All the best
Evidently I was just lucky, then, with the books I bought at Borders in KL. They were on sale. I guess I just assumed all the prices were way down on Aussie prices, as these ones were. Books here are generally far more expensive than in the US - going by Amazon, at least. However, in view of your comments about KL prices being 3x American prices, Malaysia is actually more expensive than here!
I've accepted Maedi's kind offer to post my screenshot of the price comparison between Amazon and the two bookdepository sites. With the AUD gaining against a weak USD, the savings for punters in Oz may soon be better still. OTOH, online prices seem to fluctuate often, so I guess there's always luck involved.
Cheers!
Ross
When I talk about 3. 5x, that is about the current currency exchange we pay for US$ too. Looking at amazon prices, it will be cheaper than bookdepository if you are buying more than one book re:shipping. I tried to access newbookscheap this morning but failed...I've got quite a few books from them which were really great deals. You should also check out our very own sourdough.com shop here. I notice that Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread is $25.20 brand new, I'm sure shipping within Australia should be cheaper than all the way from the States.
Dontcha love books! Happy shopping!
TP
I'm certainly interested in the recipe. Maybe it would be a good idea in the interests of keeping the forum content organised if you posted it under its own heading in the Recipes section, as I did with the banana bread? Anyway, looking forward to it...
BTW, I like the look of your bread board. Woolworths had some bamboo ones from China on special last week that looked a lot like the one in your pic. I almost bought one, but held back because I thought it might splinter when subjected to knife cuts over time. If yours is one of the bamboo ones, would be interested in your assessment. If it's fine, makes no sense to buy a Euro-sourced one at 4 times the price, or more.
Cheers
Ross
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I do agree with you. Those are the most effective way
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