I use King Arthur's flour and was wondering if A/P or Bread flour is better for a basic sourdough? Also, which is better to use to feed my starter? Thanks.
Being in Australia, I haven't used King Arthur products, although I know from US-based forums that they specialise in premium artisan flours.There is no doubt that better quality flour yields better quality bread.
As to what sort of flour is 'better' for a basic SD bread, it all depends on what YOU like. I've noticed that AP flour (which basically equates to 'plain flour' here) gives a softer, spongier crumb than higher gluten, higher protein 'bakers flour', which gives a stronger crumb structure. The flavours differ from flour to flour, also, and of course are partly dependent on the technique you use to produce your bread.
I always use the best quality organic flours I can find, regardless of whether I use plain flour or bakers flour. I think that's part of the answer to your question, but in my view there is no simple one-size-fits-all solution. Why not try a few different flours (and flour combinations), and see what YOU like most?
I use a plain unbleached flour in my starter - as long as there are no nasty additives, I think any flour will work fine as a starter feeder...but again, different flours will yield different results in the bread they produce.
I've been using KA Organic AP to maintain my starter and I have no complaints whatsoever. It has worked at hydration levels between 60% and 100%, never failing to double in size. As a plus, it plays well with rye flour for a very vigorous starter.
Thank you both for your replies. I apologize for not including the protein content of the flours as this would make more sense. I meant to, but forgot by the time I submitted it.
King Arthur A/P = 11.7%
King Arthur Bread = 12.7%
I see a lot of recipes on here calling for "white flour" and was wondering which one they meant. Since I am not in Australia, the above post explaining "plain" vs "bakers" flour was very helpful.
I know with my very limited commercial yeast bread experience that the KA A/P flour is closer to that used in traditional french bread. I was just wondering if the extra gluten of the bread flour was recommended for sourdough recipes.
I know that there are other flours with even lower protein content around here, and that most of the 'bread' flours are closer to the KA A/P flour. I have always liked KA brand in my limited baking. I haven't tried the organic one only because I don't remember seeing it.
I never really thought about the difference in protein in terms of how it compliments rye flour. I know rye is low gluten, but do not know if that means it will bring the A/P to a more proper level, or if the 12.7% bread flour would be recommended with a partial rye bread.
My newest starter is on day 4 and is coming along nicely thanks to the unusually warm weather we just had. I'm hoping I will stick with it this time and really get my breads going. I am about an hour south of San Francisco, so I am hoping for some good results.
Sometime when I just make a plain old white bread I just use Gold Medal unbleached AP flour. This makes a great loaf in my opinion. The lower protein allows for a more open crumb.
Okay. So let me make sure I understand the general difference in terms of end product with higher and lower gluten flours. With everything else being equal, lower gluten = softer, more open crumb while higher gluten = chewier, more dense crumb (perhaps more even?).
Also, sourdough does not benefit from a higher gluten content any more than commercial yeast. I can't wait to start baking with my new starter. It is bubbling nicely, but still needs a few more days to correct the slight alcohol smell (nothing compared to what it was the last couple of days).
Maverick that is the way I understand how the gluten works. I could barely tell the difference between Gold Medal "Better for Bread" flour and Gold Medal "Unbleached AP" flour. They could be the same as far as I know and it was my baking that caused the difference.
I live about 3 hours of San Francisco. There is a very good flour mill in the bay area if you are looking for a source of flour. Here is a link to it. http://giustos.com/
Thanks for the tip on the mill. I would never have known that is there. They look like they are close to SFBI. I keep meaning to get over there to check it out (would love to take classes, but the traffic is terrible). What amazes me is that I can't find a starter here in San Jose. I am sure I could find someone in San Francisco, but it is hard to get up there with the family. This latest attempt at a starter seems to be doing okay, so hopefully it will turn out well.
...except for kvanderaa's personal opinion - which many would challenge. Certainly, I find that using premium organic flours yields better quality bread than standard supermarket flours (but as to what constitutes 'better quality' - well, that's a whole other can o worms). That's not to say you can't turn out very nice bread using supermarket flours - you surely can. But my experience is that the flour used does make a significant difference to the bread.
As to the difference(s) between AP and plain flour, my research indicates that the difference is largely terminological. We only get plain flour in Australia (I've never seen any labelled as AP, at least). Regardless, whether you're talking plain or AP, in both cases if it's sourced from different areas, there are likely to be some differences in the flour itself, and these will also manifest in the bread produced. Freshness is yet another factor...as is whether it is bleached or unbleached, how it is milled, blah blah...
It's like wine: different soils and climates produce different qualities in the grapes, which are in turn reflected in the wine produced, regardless of the techniques used in the winemaking. Experts like LeadDog will attest to that, I'm sure.
The question was regarding all purpose or plain flour, no question that organic is probably very good to use, having said that, I use unbleached bread flour which is totally good and successfull for my purposes.
[quote=kvanderaa]The question was regarding all purpose or plain flour[/quote]
Actually, the question was not about AP or plain flour - it was about AP or bread flour (that is bakers' flour, which is 'stronger' than AP or plain flour...ie: higher protein and gluten). However...
Where did you get so-called AP flour? Maybe it's different in SA, but I've never seen any labelled thus here - or in Sydney or Melbourne, for that matter (which doesn't mean there isn't any...just that I've never come across it).
I must have misinterpreted your comment, it seems. So to clarify, you're saying you've used non-organic AP and plain flour as well as organic AP and plain, and there's no difference for you in the bread produced using any of these? If so, my experience still differs from yours, but not as markedly as if you were including ALL organic flours in your assessment.
I have allways been lead to believe that all purpose flour is plain flour, for that matter, please explain the noticable difference between normal plain flour and organic plain flour and would you know the difference if you were to taste it?
[quote=kvanderaa]I have allways been lead to believe that all purpose flour is plain flour[/quote]
That's my understanding, also (as stated). Just wanted to ascertain whether you had actually seen and tried flour labelled as AP.
As to your request that I describe the difference in the bread produced when organic flour(s) are used in the dough, I believe I've already covered that as well as I can - see my post of 30 Sept above.
As any food or wine critic is well aware, words are not up to the task of accurately describing tastes and aromas! That's why the mediocre ones resort to vague superlatives and make pointless references to 'taste buds'. The more imaginative writers often end up using figurative language, or tipping over into the poetic (especially wine critics!) - but in either case, they fall far short of really giving the reader any more than a suggestion of what they might expect to experience.
I know what I taste, and I can tell you without reservation that in my experience there is significant difference in the flavour - and sometimes texture - of bread made with different types of flour. When I bake breads using the same recipe and technique but different flours (eg: Wheatfields unbleached plain vs Anchor bread/pizza flour vs my preferred premium organic biodynamic Eden Valley bakers' flour) I can easily tell the difference. Ditto in pizzas: there's a very discernible difference between, for example, Anchor pizza flour and Allied Mills 'Superb' pizza flour, the latter being clearly superior IMO in terms of the end results). I don't see any point in further elaboration, but I do wonder - have you actually tried many different flours in your own baking? If not, whenever you have, given time I reckon you'll modify your current position as you've expressed it here.
Why not try an experiment: buy some top quality organic flour yourself (eg: Kialla, Eden Valley) and do a few bakes alternating between that and your current unbleached supermarket flour. I'd be VERY surprised if you didn't notice some significant differences.
As to discernible differences between plain unbleached non-organic and plain organic, I can't say I've bothered about any side-by-side sampling...but in a sense the question is meaningless. As I say, flours ain't flours! Different brands of 'plain flour' might come from wheat grown under entirely different soil and climatic conditions, which will likely be reflected in the breads they produce. Unless you know that an organic and a non-organic plain flour came from wheat grown in the same region in the same season, milled the same way and stored for the same period of time under the same conditions, any comparison is going to be invalid! Phew - gets complicated when you start factoring in the variables...
Replies
Hi Maverick.
Being in Australia, I haven't used King Arthur products, although I know from US-based forums that they specialise in premium artisan flours.There is no doubt that better quality flour yields better quality bread.
As to what sort of flour is 'better' for a basic SD bread, it all depends on what YOU like. I've noticed that AP flour (which basically equates to 'plain flour' here) gives a softer, spongier crumb than higher gluten, higher protein 'bakers flour', which gives a stronger crumb structure. The flavours differ from flour to flour, also, and of course are partly dependent on the technique you use to produce your bread.
I always use the best quality organic flours I can find, regardless of whether I use plain flour or bakers flour. I think that's part of the answer to your question, but in my view there is no simple one-size-fits-all solution. Why not try a few different flours (and flour combinations), and see what YOU like most?
I use a plain unbleached flour in my starter - as long as there are no nasty additives, I think any flour will work fine as a starter feeder...but again, different flours will yield different results in the bread they produce.
Best of baking to ya!
Ross
I've been using KA Organic AP to maintain my starter and I have no complaints whatsoever. It has worked at hydration levels between 60% and 100%, never failing to double in size. As a plus, it plays well with rye flour for a very vigorous starter.
Thank you both for your replies. I apologize for not including the protein content of the flours as this would make more sense. I meant to, but forgot by the time I submitted it.
King Arthur A/P = 11.7%
King Arthur Bread = 12.7%
I see a lot of recipes on here calling for "white flour" and was wondering which one they meant. Since I am not in Australia, the above post explaining "plain" vs "bakers" flour was very helpful.
I know with my very limited commercial yeast bread experience that the KA A/P flour is closer to that used in traditional french bread. I was just wondering if the extra gluten of the bread flour was recommended for sourdough recipes.
I know that there are other flours with even lower protein content around here, and that most of the 'bread' flours are closer to the KA A/P flour. I have always liked KA brand in my limited baking. I haven't tried the organic one only because I don't remember seeing it.
I never really thought about the difference in protein in terms of how it compliments rye flour. I know rye is low gluten, but do not know if that means it will bring the A/P to a more proper level, or if the 12.7% bread flour would be recommended with a partial rye bread.
My newest starter is on day 4 and is coming along nicely thanks to the unusually warm weather we just had. I'm hoping I will stick with it this time and really get my breads going. I am about an hour south of San Francisco, so I am hoping for some good results.
Sometime when I just make a plain old white bread I just use Gold Medal unbleached AP flour. This makes a great loaf in my opinion. The lower protein allows for a more open crumb.
Okay. So let me make sure I understand the general difference in terms of end product with higher and lower gluten flours. With everything else being equal, lower gluten = softer, more open crumb while higher gluten = chewier, more dense crumb (perhaps more even?).
Also, sourdough does not benefit from a higher gluten content any more than commercial yeast. I can't wait to start baking with my new starter. It is bubbling nicely, but still needs a few more days to correct the slight alcohol smell (nothing compared to what it was the last couple of days).
Maverick that is the way I understand how the gluten works. I could barely tell the difference between Gold Medal "Better for Bread" flour and Gold Medal "Unbleached AP" flour. They could be the same as far as I know and it was my baking that caused the difference.
I live about 3 hours of San Francisco. There is a very good flour mill in the bay area if you are looking for a source of flour. Here is a link to it. http://giustos.com/
Thanks for the tip on the mill. I would never have known that is there. They look like they are close to SFBI. I keep meaning to get over there to check it out (would love to take classes, but the traffic is terrible). What amazes me is that I can't find a starter here in San Jose. I am sure I could find someone in San Francisco, but it is hard to get up there with the family. This latest attempt at a starter seems to be doing okay, so hopefully it will turn out well.
I have used both and for me there is no difference, also organic, same difference, no difference.
[quote=kvanderaa]
same difference, no difference.
[/quote]
Haha, I guess that sums it up nicely.
...except for kvanderaa's personal opinion - which many would challenge. Certainly, I find that using premium organic flours yields better quality bread than standard supermarket flours (but as to what constitutes 'better quality' - well, that's a whole other can o worms). That's not to say you can't turn out very nice bread using supermarket flours - you surely can. But my experience is that the flour used does make a significant difference to the bread.
As to the difference(s) between AP and plain flour, my research indicates that the difference is largely terminological. We only get plain flour in Australia (I've never seen any labelled as AP, at least). Regardless, whether you're talking plain or AP, in both cases if it's sourced from different areas, there are likely to be some differences in the flour itself, and these will also manifest in the bread produced. Freshness is yet another factor...as is whether it is bleached or unbleached, how it is milled, blah blah...
It's like wine: different soils and climates produce different qualities in the grapes, which are in turn reflected in the wine produced, regardless of the techniques used in the winemaking. Experts like LeadDog will attest to that, I'm sure.
Hi
The question was regarding all purpose or plain flour, no question that organic is probably very good to use, having said that, I use unbleached bread flour which is totally good and successfull for my purposes.
[quote=kvanderaa]The question was regarding all purpose or plain flour[/quote]
Actually, the question was not about AP or plain flour - it was about AP or bread flour (that is bakers' flour, which is 'stronger' than AP or plain flour...ie: higher protein and gluten). However...
Where did you get so-called AP flour? Maybe it's different in SA, but I've never seen any labelled thus here - or in Sydney or Melbourne, for that matter (which doesn't mean there isn't any...just that I've never come across it).
I must have misinterpreted your comment, it seems. So to clarify, you're saying you've used non-organic AP and plain flour as well as organic AP and plain, and there's no difference for you in the bread produced using any of these? If so, my experience still differs from yours, but not as markedly as if you were including ALL organic flours in your assessment.
Anyway, best o baking to ya!
Ross
I have allways been lead to believe that all purpose flour is plain flour, for that matter, please explain the noticable difference between normal plain flour and organic plain flour and would you know the difference if you were to taste it?
[quote=kvanderaa]I have allways been lead to believe that all purpose flour is plain flour[/quote]
That's my understanding, also (as stated). Just wanted to ascertain whether you had actually seen and tried flour labelled as AP.
As to your request that I describe the difference in the bread produced when organic flour(s) are used in the dough, I believe I've already covered that as well as I can - see my post of 30 Sept above.
As any food or wine critic is well aware, words are not up to the task of accurately describing tastes and aromas! That's why the mediocre ones resort to vague superlatives and make pointless references to 'taste buds'. The more imaginative writers often end up using figurative language, or tipping over into the poetic (especially wine critics!) - but in either case, they fall far short of really giving the reader any more than a suggestion of what they might expect to experience.
I know what I taste, and I can tell you without reservation that in my experience there is significant difference in the flavour - and sometimes texture - of bread made with different types of flour. When I bake breads using the same recipe and technique but different flours (eg: Wheatfields unbleached plain vs Anchor bread/pizza flour vs my preferred premium organic biodynamic Eden Valley bakers' flour) I can easily tell the difference. Ditto in pizzas: there's a very discernible difference between, for example, Anchor pizza flour and Allied Mills 'Superb' pizza flour, the latter being clearly superior IMO in terms of the end results). I don't see any point in further elaboration, but I do wonder - have you actually tried many different flours in your own baking? If not, whenever you have, given time I reckon you'll modify your current position as you've expressed it here.
Why not try an experiment: buy some top quality organic flour yourself (eg: Kialla, Eden Valley) and do a few bakes alternating between that and your current unbleached supermarket flour. I'd be VERY surprised if you didn't notice some significant differences.
As to discernible differences between plain unbleached non-organic and plain organic, I can't say I've bothered about any side-by-side sampling...but in a sense the question is meaningless. As I say, flours ain't flours! Different brands of 'plain flour' might come from wheat grown under entirely different soil and climatic conditions, which will likely be reflected in the breads they produce. Unless you know that an organic and a non-organic plain flour came from wheat grown in the same region in the same season, milled the same way and stored for the same period of time under the same conditions, any comparison is going to be invalid! Phew - gets complicated when you start factoring in the variables...