I thought I had better start a blog on my Baking and my first forum entry was really a blog anyway.
I have made all my SD as an unbleached white flour/ rye flour blend but finally last week I took a few grams of my starter and fed it up as a white starter.
Last night was the first bake with the new white starter and I have noticed a few things:
1. The white starter I had split off was much more active than the rye blend. It really should have been fed every 12 hours but the rye blend only needs feeding every 24 or 48 hours (at room temperature).
2. Admittedly at a slightly higher hydration (because the starter was wetter) the white dough pretty well collapsed when slashed but then puffed up when baked and ended up with a nice shape and a greater volume in the end than my normal rye blend. The rye blend baked at the same time turned out as normal, but was a little underproved.
I'll know what the white is really like when I cut it open when I get home (I'll try to post a picture)
Has anyone else noticed a difference in properties when baking white and rye blend?
Cheers,
Pete
I have made all my SD as an unbleached white flour/ rye flour blend but finally last week I took a few grams of my starter and fed it up as a white starter.
Last night was the first bake with the new white starter and I have noticed a few things:
1. The white starter I had split off was much more active than the rye blend. It really should have been fed every 12 hours but the rye blend only needs feeding every 24 or 48 hours (at room temperature).
2. Admittedly at a slightly higher hydration (because the starter was wetter) the white dough pretty well collapsed when slashed but then puffed up when baked and ended up with a nice shape and a greater volume in the end than my normal rye blend. The rye blend baked at the same time turned out as normal, but was a little underproved.
I'll know what the white is really like when I cut it open when I get home (I'll try to post a picture)
Has anyone else noticed a difference in properties when baking white and rye blend?
Cheers,
Pete
Replies
However, I'm quite happy with the crumb
However, since you've mentioned improving your slashes I thought I'd post this diagram which should assist in getting expansion and an aesthetic appearance to your loaves.
Without getting bogged down into unnecessary detail let me just add that a dough of mainly wheat that is properly developed and matured has the propensity to expand significantly in the oven. Bakers call this "ovenspring". Generally the lower the wheat content the smaller the volume and ovenspring. In order to cope with this expansion bakers slash their dough pieces just prior to entering the oven. This will ensure controled expansion and an attractive appearance. If slashes are not executed correctly and in the correct position the dough piece often distorts in shape and expands in an irregular way. This is usually due to uneven detensioning of the gluten in relation gluten strand direction. Notice the lashes on your loaf have not opened significantly, this is most likely due to their almost 90' angle to the horizontal. See the diagram for cues on positioning and angle placement.
Good luck.
BTW just one more thing to add. Generally the more slashes in a dough piece the less they open and conversely less slashes the greater the opening. See below.
Single slash
http://sourdough.com/gallery2/gallery/d/11780-2/IMG_5109.JPG
3 slashes
http://sourdough.com/gallery2/gallery/d/12068-2/IMG_5183.JPG
4 slashes
http://sourdough.com/gallery2/gallery/d/12078-2/IMG_5188.JPG
I took a couple of loaves to the Millbrook fishing trip and Dave brought one of his, we did not bring more because we were unsure how it would be recieved. In the end, it was all gone after the first breakfast and we could have taken twice as much and still run out. Dave Andrew and myself fielded a few questions that night and one or two who were on the trip may be trying a SD bake in the near future.
Cheers,
Pete
Aaarghhh. Why didn't I see this before I slashed my bread just now? (Still) an imperfect piece of work. Jack just gave me some 'real' lames and I wanted to do them justice. Great diagram, Boris.Thank you!!
TP
It may seem strange for me to say that, but it's common to unconsciously use the whole edge which often results in the 'back' edge of the blade - which is blunt - to drag on the dough piece and ruin the slash. Hold your hand up at an angle so only the front tip of the blade is in contact with the dough. It takes time for people get accustomed to using it naturally this way.
See below
When used at this angle leading edge only has contact which eliminates 'tearing' and 'ripping'.
PS I tied you 4 size 14 Adams paraduns last night...I'll tie the 16's tonight. I'm also tying a few for myself. I tie them differently than most people in that I do them in the Hans Van Klinken style, using Spiderweb.
...just for practice. LOL.
[Must remember to use 'just the tip'.]
Tks.
TP
It's something like Japanese silk painting; you have to get it right the first time - no second chances unless you have another dough piece - and bakers should execute the slashes with a 'minimalistic' approach. The cuts should be deliberate, but the depth will depend on the amount of proof at the time of slashing; under proof requires deeper cuts. Over proof requires shallower cuts. Did I mention perfecting the exercise of slashing usually usually means you have to do it rather than read about it?
Pete, I'm rubbing my hands in anticipation of getting those para Adams.... you're just too kind, mate!
[snip]....... Did I mention perfecting the exercise of slashing usually usually means you have to do it rather than read about it?
Pete, I'm rubbing my hands in anticipation of getting those para Adams.... you're just too kind, mate!
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Pete...keep feeding him the (right) bait, and we won't be short of these tute gems. Reckon we gotta thank you too.
TP
I think of it as trout food in exchange for human food.
[IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/slasharchedshapes-1.jpg[...
Slashing works best when we are relaxed; use the force like a young Jedi knight.
If you practice inscribing those lines with a pencil on paper using one continous motion - without varying speed or stopping and starting during each line you'll find it helpful when it comes time to executing it on dough. Muscle memory developes quite quickly which means it'll be one less thing you have to concentrate on becasue you'll have some experience with fluiditity and line angle.
Just to clarify, there are lots of different slashing styles but those styles that produce good controlled expansion with a pleasing aesthetic all follow basic principles. Sure, develop your own style, within effective parameters, not against them!
Pete, I think you should take TP's advice and keep posting flies.....
I was busy waiting for my dought to rise between folds.
Think of the extra flies as a "pre paid bonus" for the new information tips. I feel like a young "Grasshopper" from the old TV series.
Its all good TP!
One of the loaves had a little more angle and turned out looking OK, but I should have had another look at the photo before I started! My camera is at work so I cannot take a photo tonight and these loaves have been promised to work mates tomorrow so I probably will not get to take a shot before giving them out. I'm doing another bake on Saturday so I'll resist the temptation to fall back on my bad habits, put more angle in and try to do better!
Your diagrams and photos are excellent and greatly appreciated Boris...I hope you find the flies are an adequate exchange. When you open the package remember I'm just an old amateur fly tier who has a bit of fun at the vise!
Look forward to seeing the pictures of the new bake.
When we have our get together sometime I'll show you how I tie them. I have used them (well, a previous version anyway) on lakes and slow pools to good effect. They sit in the film and are therefore no good in fast water but around Christmas they work pretty well. Feel free to trim the legs but Dave prefers them left long.... They have been designed to sit in the film because beetles float in the film and not above it! The hot dots were designed by Babelfish and have become my "go to" dry fly. The posts can be seen very easily in a late afternoon glare and sometimes the pink is easier to see and sometimes the green is better. The fish do not seem to mind the bright colors. ;-) :-)
I have my camera and will take a photo of the loaves.
My normal loaves are in the fridge and will emerge for proving in a couple of hours.
I'll let the 25% rye prove a bit more than normal before I bake them and see how they turn out.
TP
p.s. Love the fly talk. So creative.
Still a little under proved, but I'm still pretty new at this and I think the slashes are allowing more oven spring than how I was slashing the loaves before. I think the way I was doing it before was letting the "skin" constrain the loaves and not letting them expand to their full potential. I cannot wait for them to cool so I can cut one open and have a look at the crumb! :-)
I'm slowly getting there Boris. ;-)
I finally got a decent stone and started baking in pairs today :-)
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I went fishing with Tony today on a lovely bit of twig water but I left a white and a rye loaf for him and Marie. I told them to eat the white first as the rye tends to keep better. When we got back to Tony's place Marie came out and said hello so I asked if she had cut into a loaf and what it was like....her reply was that she had eaten half the white loaf while we were fishing. :-) I figured it must be OK ;-)
PS Boris, I used a pink posted Hot Dot and got takes all day. Tony used a variety of flies, including a white posted hot dot and a green posted one. He did not get a take until he switched to a pink posted one....far from turning the fish off, I think the pink post attracted them!
Where did you head this weekend?
I've been baking, garden and finding room for my bamboo rod making gear in the garage :-D
Lunch was made out of my Ciabatta rolls and they went down very well (see the ciabatta bake off thread in the forum if you want to see a pic).
Although cold, that sounds like a lot of fun, Pete.
Tony also sent me a couple of those small hot dots with a white post. I'm looking forward to trying those and yours out. I've tied up a couple of spent spinners and partridge soft hackle wets for him. My tying is hardly in his or your league but they do catch fish...
Or is there a direct correlation between great breadmaking and fishing skills? (I might take up fishing again.)
TP
Although cold, that sounds like a lot of fun, Pete.
Tony also sent me a couple of those small hot dots with a white post. I'm looking forward to trying those and yours out. I've tied up a couple of spent spinners and partridge soft hackle wets for him. My tying is hardly in his or your league but they do catch fish...
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I find making bread extremely satisfying Boris....I just HAVE to look through the oven window to see how it is going after 5 mins...10 mins....20 mins. I love watching the development in the oven! :-)
I 'm sure your tying is good Boris, but like breadmaking it gets better with practice. I think about some of my early flies, simple ones that took over 1/2 an hour each to tie and shudder in horror...but they still caught fish. My flytying has improved over time and I'm even generally happy with what falls from my vise, but as Wet will tell you I do most things wrong...or at least differently to others. ;-)
You cannot take up just any type of fishing TP (although any type of fishing is fun and better than not fishing) but you will have to try fly fishing! If you do, I'll tie a couple up for you. If you do not have trout to fish for where you live I can tie salt water flies too. It has been said that if it swims and feeds, you can catch it on a fly. ;-)
Again the white "exploded" out from the slashes like the last batch. :-( On the bright side, the crumb is nice. :-)
The 25% rye looks even better than the last batch because the slashes are more even. I would have posted a pic or two but the camera has dead flat batteries and I cannot find the charger (I hope it is at work). I think I have the rye sorted, but I still have to sort out the white. I even let it prove more this time...
TP
The baguette I sliced open tastes nice with a good crunchy crust anyway. :-)
This photo is a bit blurry....taken in low light but it gives some idea of the crumb.
The 25% Rye
The Crumb...a bit out of focus but you will get the idea
TP
As usual the white exploded and I think I need to reduce the hydration to get a better look. The baguettes were ciabattaish in crumb....if I let the whites prove longer they end up flattish around the edges and still explode out of the middle! Next time I don't think I'll fight it but I might try one slash down the middle and just let it explode, it should look good anyway!
Matthew
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Pete, here are a few examples; longitudinal slash
[img]http://sourdough.com/gallery2/gallery/d/11780-2/IMG_5109.JPG[/img]
See this [url=http://sourdough.com/forum/topic/1170#comment-8852]here[/url] also
and the diamond pattern.
[IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_6567.jpg[/IMG]
I'll try it with a small decrease in the hydration of the dough because I think with the current flour, although I have not changed the hydration, the dough feels a fair bit "wetter" and I am having more trouble slashing these loaves than the ones I made with the last bag of flour.
I suppose I should not really complain too much, I do prefer the nice open crumb even if the oven spring is a bit excessive rather than having less oven spring and a dense crumb. ;-)
Tonight I baked my usual batch of 2 rye and 2 white loaves. The temperature last night when I made the dough was around 28 degrees and the dough became super active, especially the white. When the loaves were put in the fridge they rose overnight much more than normal, and when proved tonight the white got a bit over-proved. Even though the oven spring was OK they ended up a bit flat. They expanded so much in the prove that they were hard to slash and were so "puddingish" that the one cut in a diamond pattern collapsed to one side. They are OK but I was a little disappointed. Both loaves of the rye on the other hand ended up looking quite good. :-)
Overproved or not, your breads look fantastic. The diamond is just beautiful.
Just give Maedi a shout and he'll zap off the multiple posts.
I'll post some pictures tonight, they were still nice to eat though and Anton's sister in-law thinks I'm a wog (I think that it was a complement)
I bet your customers and fishing mates are very pleased with the bread quality.
You'll have to do a picture of "loaves and fishes" one day beside the river.
I will wait in anticipation for a look at your latest bake Andrew....you make my bread look bad! I'm sure Anton's sister in law meant it as a compliment and probably wants a few more loaves. ;-)
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Well today I did white in the new Bannetons for the CFA christmas party 4 loaves...
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I need to improve my slashing now I have a 'proper' lame thanks to Pete, a bit of splitting but it's my first white loaves, and the 'great unwashed' loved the bread :) infact the sliced loaves they bought didn't get even opened :D
I also used my cane bannetons for the first time on the weekend and i'm very happy with the results. I would post a pic but I left my camera at work after downloading pictures of the Todd river in flood from it at work. After I returned from Alice Springs my starter was pretty dead after sitting on the bench without a feed in the heat for about 2 weeks. I fed it in 12 hour cycles and there was nothing after the first feed, a few bubbles after the second, and after the 4th cycle they were both fully active. When I finally used them the dough was highly active and the loaves ended up as high as they are round...almost a little bigger than normal! It just goes to show how a seemingly dead starter can be revived.
My loaves always explode like that no matter how I prove or slash them, I have tried a longer bulk fermentation phase, longer proving, deeper and more frequent slashing and nothing seems to prevent them exploding. I'm starting to think (after reading one of Dom's blogs) that I need to spray them with water before they go into the oven to retard the setting of the crust and allow more expansion from the slashes. It seems a pan of boiling water does not provide enough steam.
I'll be dropping off a loaf or two to Chris after work tonight since he showed so much interest when you gave me the bannetons. I'll be interested to see what he thinks.
Pete, how did Chris go with his bread??
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