Hi all,
Andrew Whitely of bread matters uses a "production sourdough" in many of his recipes. Is this essentially the same thing as poolish? If the first stage of the poolish/ferment/production starter is left at a cool temperature for 10-12 hours does this mean the bulk fermentation in the next stage does not have to be as long?
Or is it best to follow on with another long rest before the final shape and proof. I mostly make wholemeal either 50/50 to white or 60/40 wholemeal being the 60%. My hydration is usually about 70%.
I am basically trying to dork everything around A work day (I'm out afternoons till evening).
any suggestions or ideas gratefully received. Thanks.
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Hi Mendandmake
Can you clarify...are you using baker's yeast in your ferment production? The term 'poolish' most usually refers to ferments containing commercial yeast.
I assume your flour ratios and hydration are refering to your bread dough rather than the ferment. What type of flour and at what hydration is the ferment?
A 100% sourdough ferment (starter) is unlikely to be mature at cool temps in 12 hours (there could be exceptions...like you were forced to carry over a much larger than usual % of old, mature starter into your 'new' starter).
'Cool' temperatures is also open to interpretation. Fermentation slows noticeably at 18C, but probably you are refering to a typical retarding range of 8C to 14C?
Home bakers need to be aware that domestic refrigeration is generally not capable of reducing temps of fermenting starter/dough to the air temperature of the fridge, typically 4C, in a 12 hour period. Cooling is passive (no or minimal forced air circulation). In my opinion this is actually a benefit as your ferments will spend longer in the wonderful 8-12/14 zone.
Thanks for the reply.
Yes I am using a sourdough starter (rye 1:1). I use marriage's flour. organic stoneground wholemeal and stong white. If I make up the "production sourdough" it is a small amount of the starter (15 g I think- I don't have the recipe in front of me with) additional flour and water. It is I suppose refreshing the existing starter. I have left it for 10 hours at a temperature of 18C and it has generally bubbled up nicely and grown.
I'm trying to understand how that is different from just bringing everything together from the outset and not having a "preferment". I understand the flavour may enhance but how does it change the overal bulk fermentation and proof later on. I don't really mind which I use but it's nice to try and get an understanding of the reasons behind it.
Thanks for the help
I see your point more clearly now. You can make good bread by not spending so much effort on a pre-ferment. But building a pre-ferment provides more control over fermentation and instantly improves (horrible term) the bread dough by acidifying the dough the moment you add the mature ferment to it. Further fermentation/acidification is required as a dough, of course!
Building an active ferment (starter), active enough to have a known level of performance in bread dough, may take one build or a few builds. It depends on the activity of the starter you begin with. We could call a dorment starter (often refrigerated and barely active) Stage 1. Sometimes it is enough to feed (build) once and make a very active Stage 2. Sometimes Stage 3 is necessary to provide certainty.
I think you are aware of this I'm just recapping for clarity. The point is that as bakers we Proof, which simply means 'gaining evidence'. Knowing the starter is active and acidified is important in terms of making a consistently good (digestible and other desired characteristics) bread in a repeatable process.
My general preference is to make a mature ferment (it has just fallen, or is just about to), short bulk proof (15 mins to 1 hour depending on temperature and dough type, then a long final proof in the forms. My final proof time varies depending on the season and how concerned I am with getting sleep during the rising period.
A 12C night allows plenty of time for dinner and sleep. On warmer nights I might rise dough 2/3 in the forms then place in a commercial cool room for the night. At home you would probably refrigerate as soon as you noticed the dough rising due to slower cooling.
Thank you. That's helped me on my journey with the wonders of sourdough baking which I'm loving so far.
Whether you do a preferment or one long first rise is really a matter of preference, the temperature, and using the fridge wisely. I've done a bunch of combinations and you can get a wonderful bread any which way. There's no right or wrong exactly and there are different avenues to a long fermentation period and to fitting bread making in to actual, normal workday life. Have fun and experiment!
I use Andrew's book too. It was the book I first started with and though it's pretty crusty now, I still value it and dip in from time to time.
What he calls the production dough does indeed appear just to be a pre-ferment or 'sponge'. I've had great results with hs breads building in stages or simply going for long single prooves, depending on if I'm gonna be around to nurse the thing or not...