Hi all,
Newbie here, absolutely love this forum already!
I have made some early attempts with sourdough, and since I found this site have been looking only at SourDoms excellent beginners blog. Thanks Dom!
I follow Doms directions with great care, weigh all ingredients etc. I am working with the 'final' of his instructions, putting it all together, found here: final crucial steps
Anyway, after 3 attempts my primary challenge is the sticky/wet dough.I have also read Dan Lepards instructions that Dom also quotes and I simply cannot get this 10 second kneading thing to work.
Questions and challenges:
I am under the impression I should use no flour and only a little oil on the table/Plastic workboard. However, after at least 5 times 10-20 second kneading (With oil used every time on the board plus some in the bowl) followed by 10 minutes or 1 hour breaks, it seems the dough gets more elastic but is just as sticky. This also means a lot of the dough sticks on to my fingers, resulting in me either having to wash away the dough when washing fingers, or putting flour on them to rub it off and back into the dough..
So I guess my 2 primary questions are:
1. Does your dough become less sticky after 3-4-5 kneads, so that you do not have a lot of dough sticking to your fingers every time?
2, How much oil and/or flour do you end up using during the long kneading? Should I start using more flour which seems right and necessary in the situation but I understand its a no-no somehow?
PS: I should add that despite the challenges, they always end up as very tasty breads, so I am well satisfied with the taste and starter - its just the darnkneading for now, not to mention actually shaping anything - have not gotten there yet!
Many thanks, Mads 
Replies
I'm having the same problem-the dough is just too sticky to shape. I added more flour so that I could handle it without washing it down the sink.
Bread cooked with moist, dense crumb with a great flavour. I realise now that I added too much light rye flour.
I'd prefer a lighter crumb with more air holes. Think I'll let the next batch prove for a much longer time until I'm happy with it. Get a bit impatient sometimes!
And-it's addictive bread.
[quote=hiver]
Hi all,
Newbie here, absolutely love this forum already!
I have made some early attempts with sourdough, and since I found this site have been looking only at SourDoms excellent beginners blog. Thanks Dom!
I follow Doms directions with great care, weigh all ingredients etc. I am working with the 'final' of his instructions, putting it all together, found here: final crucial steps
Anyway, after 3 attempts my primary challenge is the sticky/wet dough.I have also read Dan Lepards instructions that Dom also quotes and I simply cannot get this 10 second kneading thing to work.
Questions and challenges:
I am under the impression I should use no flour and only a little oil on the table/Plastic workboard. However, after at least 5 times 10-20 second kneading (With oil used every time on the board plus some in the bowl) followed by 10 minutes or 1 hour breaks, it seems the dough gets more elastic but is just as sticky. This also means a lot of the dough sticks on to my fingers, resulting in me either having to wash away the dough when washing fingers, or putting flour on them to rub it off and back into the dough..
So I guess my 2 primary questions are:
1. Does your dough become less sticky after 3-4-5 kneads, so that you do not have a lot of dough sticking to your fingers every time?
2, How much oil and/or flour do you end up using during the long kneading? Should I start using more flour which seems right and necessary in the situation but I understand its a no-no somehow?
PS: I should add that despite the challenges, they always end up as very tasty breads, so I am well satisfied with the taste and starter - its just the darnkneading for now, not to mention actually shaping anything - have not gotten there yet!
Many thanks, Mads
[/quote]
Hi Mads,
I had this issue too at first, now I use plenty of oil, a few good lugs on the table, and coat my hands with oil for the first 2 kneads, wash in warm soapy water after.
After the first two kneads I then find the dough is much more elastic and not as sticky, but still sticky enough... I then use flour on the last 2-3 kneads, and again coat my hands in it, and if the dough starts sticking to the bottom just add more flour to the table.
Hope that helps.
Y
[quote=Mr Ciabatta]
I had this issue too at first, now I use plenty of oil, a few good lugs on the table, and coat my hands with oil for the first 2 kneads, wash in warm soapy water after.
After the first two kneads I then find the dough is much more elastic and not as sticky, but still sticky enough... I then use flour on the last 2-3 kneads, and again coat my hands in it, and if the dough starts sticking to the bottom just add more flour to the table.
[/quote]
Thanks, Mr,Ciabatta, for your helpful suggestions. Before I read them, I had another go, with much frustration. The problem is I simply cannot detect a difference whatsoever in the dough after 5 kneads, with 10-10-30-30-30 minutes apart. After the 5th knead and insane amounts of stickyness, I gave up on any type of shaping, and just 'poured' the sticky dough in a hot clay pot. The bread was delish with lots of big air holes, but the lack of shaping and control over the dough frustrates me.
Your advice makes sense, and I guess this means that its ok to use a lot of oil, and also some flour to some extent.
I will experiment next time, based on your advice
Thanks!, Mads
Hmm that's odd, I find after the first knead the dough is already much more smooth and elastic, making if fun to handle (my kids love poking it if I'm out of the room) and not sticky at all with some oil...
What kind of flour are you using?
Maybe have a crack at this Ciabatta A'Lancienne recipe from SourDom it was my first attempt about a month ago at sour dough and worked really well.
Flour may be just the thing!
Just like you are proposing, I also think I stumbled upon a potential answer to my troubles after my last response:
The original recipe calls for 450 grams white flour, 50 grams whole. (90% white, 10% whole)
Instead, I have been using 300 grams white (60%), 100 grams Spelt or Rye (20%), and 100 grams whole wheat (20%) I figured a little less white would be good for the health, but I never figured that it could impact the dough.
Last night, I stumbled across a rule of thumb, saying that with whole wheat dough, you apply MORE water to avoid stickyness, and the opposite with white dough. So perhaps that is the solution, I should use more water - despite having only 20% whole wheat, 20% Barley and 60% white?
Thanks, M
Hello Hiver,
Why don't you go back and try the proportions of flour in SourDoms recipe and see how that goes. I have used that recipe with great success. In one of my early blogs I included photos of stages in development of the dough which will give you an idea of what to look for.
You are right about higher proportions of whole meal and rye needing higher hydration. I am not so sure about spelt as I have never used it so far. The other thing about rye is that it is naturally stickier than the high gluten wheat and spelt flours. I think that is because it has more starches than gluten so another option might be to try leaving out the rye and just use the wheat/spelt.
Just as an aside, if you make a pure rye dough, to get any sort of a 'light' loaf you would need the dough to be a bit like toothpaste (over 90% hydration) and it would definitely have to be tinned.
My other thought is that you are better to practice making a simple basic recipe until you can make good consistent bread before trying to second guess what the problem is. It might be that it is not the recipe but just some adjustment to technique that is the difference between success and 'failure' (which is very often relative).
One other question, do you know what the gluten/protein content of your various flours are?
Farinam
Hello Farinam,
Thanks for your reply, and I think you are spot on along with Mr. Ciabatta. I will keep my investigative nature on hold, and just follow the recipe :-)
Before I read your response, I did give it yet another try, this time only with 400 g white wheat and 100 g Rye. result: Just as much a disaster as before, but that is only natural, reading your description of how rye doughs behave.
I do not know the gluten content, will try to investigate, and report back after I try following the recipe meticiously.
PS: I will have a look at your blog. Do you or anyone else have a video tutorial of the kneading process? I try to fold the dough 10 times quickly, but would like to know if I am doing it right.
Thanks, M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1timJlCT3PM&feature=related
Hello Hiver,
Hopefully these links will show you a couple of techniques. The first one talks of an extended kneading campaign which you could use or you could use the method for a series of short kneads (say fifteen 'strokes' per session) spread over time.
The second is stretch and fold with a high hydration dough but equally applicable but not needing the oil etc for lower hydration. Once again the timing can vary as you see fit.
Hope this helps.
Farinam