I have read hundreds of pages on here in recent days but I'm kind of confused now so I thought I would post. So I started a "mother" following the recipe in Beyond Nose to Tail, which calls for white flour, half as much of each wheat and rye flour (substitued triticale since I didnt have it), ruhbarb and yogurt and water. For 6 days I followed the instructions and was left with a very foamy, wet starter. I began baking bread per a recipe in the book that called for the addition of yeast (since the starter didn't seem that strong and I didnt have the time to commit to the long sourdough rise), but I found the starter so wet my dough was beyond difficult to work with and rose strangely. After discarding all but about an eight of the starter and replacing this with equal parts flour and water. It seemed vigorous and doubled in size after about 5-6 hours. I managed to bake a nice loaf with this replacing the amount I took with equal parts water and flour, but my starter again seemed wet and not very agressive. So yesterday since my jar was getting messy I discarded all but 200g of the starter and to this added equal parts flour and water. I am getting bubbles, but not a lot of rise and certainly nothing like the dense bubbly rises doubling in size that I see in some of the pages on the site. Today I removed 100g (replacing it with equal parts flour and water in the original) of this bubbling solution to a new jar and to that added 200g of flour and an 200g of water. After 4 hours I am seeing big bubbles form but nothing like the crazy rises I see on here.
I am just curious if I am doing this right. When I see people saying they "feed" their starters every 8-12 hours, with a 1:1:1 ratio that means discarding 2/3's of the original and adding equal parts flour and water? What else can I do to get my starter stronger? It's been going about 9 days now. I am going to bake my first strictly sourdough loaf tomorrow but I have doubts about my starters abilities! Thanks for any help!
Replies
Hello Rezpeni,
If you starter is active (full of bubbles throughout) and smells 'nice' then I wouldn't get too excited about the not doubling thing. Perhaps next time you feed use a little less water and that will make it stiffer and will help to retain the generated gas and show the rise. With your wet starter it is possible that the bubbles are breaking and gas is merely escaping but there is nothing wrong with your starter. When you mix it to a dough it is likely to rise just fine.
The water absorbing capacity of flour varies widely and at the same 'hydration' the appearance of the mix can be quite different. That is possibly why your bread dough was also wet and 'unhandleable'.
If in doubt, hold back a bit of the water when you prepare your dough. If it turns out too stiff you can always work a bit more in. As has been said a number of times here and elsewhere, it does not pay to be too pedantic about the details of recipes, you have to adjust for the materials you are using and the seasons. Listen to the dough.
Hope this helps. Keep on bakin'
Farinam
Thanks for your response Farinam, I guess as a first time sourdough baker I am really just looking for reassurance. I'm not really sure what the correct smell is, but it doesn't smell off so it seems okay. It just seems to lack punch compared to what I see online. Fed two jars of starter today one with 1:1:1 and one with 1:2:2 just to see. After four hours in a warm room bubbles are forming but very little if any rise. The St. John book I'm cooking from contains very sparse directions. The real test will be when I cook a loaf from it today. I plan to keep at it regardless until I am successful either with this starter or another!
Hello Rezpeni,
I'm not clear what you mean by 1:1:1 and 1:2:2. I think it means say 100g starter with 100/200g of flour and water which is not shanging the hydration of the mix. Tell me if that is not correct.
What I was suggesting was that you try something like 100g starter with 100g flour and (say) 90g water to make a stiffer mix that might hold the gas better and 'rise' for you.
As I said, some people use very 'liquid' starters that 'rise' very little but when made into a dough at say 72% hydration, the dough rises perfectly because the strength of the dough retains the gas generated.
Let me know how you go.
Farinam
Yes when I say 1:1:1 I mean one part starter, one part flour, one part water. Right now I am doing this every 24 hours. I think what is happening is the starter is eating so much of the flour that by the time I bake with it, it throws off the hydration of the dough following the amounts in the recipe I'm using. How late after I feed my starter should I be using it? I made my first bread using only the starter and no yeast yesterday and while the flavor is nice I think the bubbles had trouble forming with the probably again too wet dough. I get one big pocket in the center. I let it rise in a bowl. I'm going to keep feeding my starter every day until I get a chance to try again. Is it okay to keep it out on the counter I thought I read somewhere the longer you do this before refrigeration the better it will get?
Hello Rezpeni,
From your starter, take 90g into a glass jug and add 45g flour and 45g water. Mix well, cover and leave for 4hours (you say it is bubbling after 4hours).
Put the bubbling starter into your mixing bowl and add 320g water and mix well to disperse the starter. Then add 500g flour and 10g salt and mix until the flour is all incorporated. Leave to sit (covered) for half an hour and then knead using your preferred method.
You will probably need to allow to ferment and rise for about three hours after kneading. If you are using the stretch and fold technique then this is spread throughout the bulk ferment stage.
Then you can pre-shape and final shape and leave to proof (possibly another three hours - giving a total time of some seven (plus or minus) hours from the start of dough making). The actual timing will depend on the temperature and the activity of your yeasts but it is best to go by the appearance and feel of the dough.
When the loaf has proven, slash and bake (assuming you are doing free-form) and enjoy the results of your labours.
If the time frame is too long for your schedule, you could try either retarding your starter (feed in the evening and place in the fridge overnight) or your shaped loaf.
I would also suggest that you don't need to be using such a large amount of flour for your feedings (at least cut back to 100:50:50) and I would certainly be considering starting to store it in the fridge and feeding less frequently - if only to reduce the amount of flour that you will be using. Remember that the colony does not 'die' from starvation, it just becomes dormant (in the short term at least) and will spring to life again when food becomes available.
Let us know how you go and if you have the means to give us some pictures that could help with diagnosis.
Keep on bakin'
Farinam
Thank you so much Farinam! I will definetely try this, in the St. John book I'm cooking from they perscribe making the dough, putting it in the fridge for an hour, shaping into a ball, waiting 3 hours, then shaping in the final shape and letting rise for 4-5 hours so time is not a huge issue at this point! I did not see much activity 3 hours after the final shaping so I think so log a rise was maybe excessive. I am going to put the starter in the fridge tonight since I won't be able to bake from it again until Wed at the earliest. Should I take it out tuesday night, feed it, with 100:50:50, then bake from it the next morning? Or feed at night, then in the morning, then 4 hours later make the dough from it? Do you want to bake when the starter is reaching the height of its rise in the jar or just when it starts to show activity?
Hi Rezpeni
The question of the state of your starter (levain) at the start of dough making is also the subject of much discussion. Basically you just want to be sure that it is alive and well. If you have followed the instructions with dried bakers yeast where they tell you to mix the yeast with water, flour etc and leave until foamy - the absolutely only reason to do that is to be sure that the yeast is active and ready to work and hasn't died through age or mishandling. So if your starter has been stored for a while without feeding then it is wise to feed it at least once to be sure that all is well.
Given that the making of the dough provides copious quantities of new food and the process of activity and growth starts again, in my view in any case, it is probably of little consequence whether it is at 'peak' or not. I have made perfectly good bread taking the starter from the fridge without it having been fed for some days.
If you want to save some time on your baking day prepare your levain (the starter that goes into your dough mix) the night before otherwise just start from scratch in the morning and wait until it is clear that it is active (4hrs if you wish). If you prepare it the night before, I wouldn't consider feeding again in the morning as you gain nothing timewise and as I said before, the dough flour is a whole new source of food.
Provided that your starter is active (and it sounds as if it is), the secret of good bread is in the preparation of the actual loaf for baking to make sure that it is well kneaded, well shaped and properly proofed.
I don't think you can go too far wrong of you take guidance from the various articles on this site by SourDom who provides a blow by blow description of every phase from getting your starter to baking your loaf.
Keep on bakin'
Farinam
Farinam can I ask you some questions about the recipe you posted above which I will make next. Do you have any recomendations for mixing/kneading using the kitchenaid I have been using this with the dough hook attachment. Also as far as baking I have been baking in the oven at 450 with a tray of water at the bottom for 30 mins, removing the tray and then baking for an additional 10 mins. Does this seem advisable to continue?
In the KitchenAid manual, they suggest that you can get away with much shorter processing times which might be just their hype or it might be based in fact. As with all methods, I think you have to do what the dough needs. One method for assessing the sufficiency of kneading is a stretch test where you take a small piece of dough and stretch it out with your fingers (sort of like a mini-mini pizza base) and if you can get it to a film that you can almost see through without tearing then the dough has been kneaded enough. The other descriptor is smooth and silky for the dough ball. If the dough is overworked the gluten strands can break down and the dough will get soft and sticky again.
I would say that somewhere between five and ten minutes at say speed setting 2 would be sufficient but as I say, it is best to go by the appearance and feel of the dough rather than rigid timings.
450 sounds about right for the oven setting. I'd perhaps remove the steam generation after 12-15 minutes (probably doesn't do anything for the bread and only consumes energy after this) and progressively lower the oven temperature in about three stages over the remaining baking time to 375.
Hang in there,
Farinam
Thank you again Farinam, I went through all the past blog pages and saw some of your previous loafs which were super impressive. I think actually I might put aside the Kitchenaid for the next batch and mix by hand following sourdom's instruction. Like you, as I saw, I do have plenty of experience working with yeasted doughs and pastry but sourdough seems much more intuitive and I am anxious to succeed with it. I will let you know how my next loaves work out on wed. Thanks again!
Farinam, I made your bread exactly as you perscribed in your direcitons here to the letter - big improvement! Kneaded by streching and folding 4 times total with 45 min breaks. Shaped it into a boule and proofed on a semonlina dusted parchment on cookie sheet. I do have a baking stone at the bottom of my oven but haven't been confident enough with my dough handling to move my loaves onto it yet, perhaps next time. But great taste, rose wonderfully proving my sourdough is happy and working afterall, so much better than my previous effort! I hope you won't mind if I ask you a few questions though.
In the baking one side rose higher than the other and burst slightly on the bottom. Could this be because I didn't score it well enough? Didn't do a very deep/good job of it using a very sharp knife, should probably use a razor next time. Or perhaps I need to turn the bread halfway during the baking? Or maybe I left one side closer to a warm window in my kitchen during the proofing (though it looked even going in).
The crust seemed a little thin, not as rough/chewy as my last loaf. Could this be from removing the steaming tray earlier? Lowering the temp? Or perhaps I should spray the loaves with mist?
Seems like it could cook slightly longer in the interior, should I try keeping the oven at 450 longer? Or a higher temp?
Getting some big empty pockets along the top just under the crust, anyway to get a more even yet still holey interior?
Also is it okay to feed your starter and put it right back into the fridge, and how long should I wait before cutting into the finished bread?
Sorry I know it's a lot of questions ! :) Thanks again.
Hello Rezpeni,
Glad to hear of your progress.
I you have your loaf on parchment on a cookie sheet, use the sheet as a peel and slip the loaf (parchment and all) off onto the stone - easy peasy.
Uneven rise and bursting can come from several causes but I wouldn't get too pedantic about the appearance at this stage.
I feel that a razor blade is better than a knife - I fit mine to a bamboo kebab skewer (one of the thicker ones) and that puts a curve on the blade that I like. I feel just a bit more comfortable with the 'handle' though I have used just the blade as well. Your slashing will get better with practice and there are some good tutorials out there on the web if you like. The slashing can affect the way a loaf rises and there have been some comparisons done and reported on this site.
Turning the loaf might help if your oven has any hot spots. I think a hot spot in the oven is a more likely cause of uneven rise than uneven proving. Bursting on the other hand is often indicative of underproving but can also arise from not having formed a good 'skin' when shaping.
The crust will thicken with longer baking - I would imagine keeping the steam going longer might result in a softer crust but could stand corrected on that. I think you are best to bake a few more loaves as practice.
If your perceived faults persist, then make some changes along the lines that you suggest. Make notes so that you can keep track of what you do and whether the changes have any effect.
The big pockets might just result from air trapped in the dough during shaping. Once again this is a bit of an art that you develop with practice.
I usually take out starter for my loaf and feed both. The source can go straight back in the fridge when the weather is warm. As it is a lot cooler here these days, I have been leaving it on the bench without ill effect.
Generally I try to leave the bread until it has cooled completely before cutting (at least three hours). This allows everything to set and you are less likely to flatten the loaf - but hey, if you like hot soft bread - go for it. Some hardy souls recommend leaving it for three days before cutting - rather more will power than I can claim though.
Keep on bakin'
Farinam
I made another loaf this time I raised the oven temp to 500 then slowly reduced to 450 and I think I like the results from the higher temp better the bread seems more cooked and passes the thump test better. I baked on the stone this time with great results unfortunately when I was pouring water into my steam tray some fell on the baking stone and it ended up cracking in half. Woops!
Crumb is better as I am not getting massive holes along the top, but I am still getting bursting on the bottom! That cross section is of the burst side. Halfway through the bake (20mins) I went to turn the loaf and it had already burst. One side rises up and I get a kind of weird slanting UFO shape. I'm thinking maybe I am underproofing, or I am not degassing enough after bulk ferment, or my shaping technique still needs practice. I am following the Peter Reinhart one I see on youtube when he stretches out, folds the dough over once pinching the edges, then folds the sides under until he gets a tense surface. Maybe it is weak somewhere along the bottom.
Any advice on allowing the shaped dough to proof in the fridge overnight? I would like to try this next.
Hello again Rezpeni,
It seems to me that you are making progress. Your loaf looks just fine and while the shape is a bit odd I am sure that it eats well.
It looks to me as if you might have had a bubble of air trapped in the centre of your loaf when you shaped it, perhaps during the folding stage that you mention. The air has expanded greatly during baking and the point of weakness was in the base giving rise to the odd UFO shape (maybe). Possibly your slashes were not quite deep enough the provide some more relief or perhaps the top crust had set before the heat reached the bubble to cause the expansion. How long did you leave the steam maker in the oven?
Was the loaf in the oven when you spilled the water or did it go in afterwards? I was just wondering whether the base of the loaf had gotten wet in the process.
One other possible reason for a weakness in the base could be the pinch closing not having taken. This can be a problem if you use too much flour on the bench during final shaping - best to use none at all.
As I said before I would not worry about retarding unless it is essential for your schedule and would continue to make your standard loaf a few more times before making any changes.
Hang in there,
Farinam
Thanks for all the advice Farinam! Yah they keep coming out in this damn weird shape. I am retarding a loaf overnight not in the spirit of experimentation but necessity since I want to take one with me tomorrow and don't have the time. But I am going to try to address each of the possible blowout ideas at the same time, make my slashes deeper, be sure not to spill any water if i did haha, and be sure my pinches are taking and really make sure it is shaped in an even way all the way around so let's see!
oh and btw, took the steam tray out after 20 minutes when I went to turn the loaf.
Well here's the one I made from a shaped loaf I proofed overnight in the fridge. Let it come to temp as I was heating up the oven about 45mins. This is smaller than my previous loaves and I think I probably should have spent longer letting the dough come back to temp and let the yeasties wake up a little but just didn't have the time today. On the plus side I did fix my bursting problem by making sure I shaped evenly on the boule, not one big pinch and then folding all the sides down. Can't wait to try again with my regular routine.
If a loaf has had sufficient proofing, I don't think that letting it come to room temp before placing in the oven really achieves anything. It's common practice to take straight from the fridge to the oven - in the oven it heats up beyond room temp very quickly.
Kymh, I shaped the loaf and put it straight in the fridge for 12 hours but I guess that wasn't enough time to proof it, I probably should have let it proof at room temp longer before I put it in or left it in the fridge longer.
Baked my best loaves yet yesterday, this one replaced 50 grams of white flour with whole wheat. Proofed for 4 hours, and no more bursting loaves! Thank you again Farinam for all your advice!
Well done Rezpeni, I never doubted for a moment that you would crack it.
Nice looking loaf. Is the colour real or is that a factor of the light? If the colour is true, what are your ingredients?
Farinam
Thanks Farinam :) The color is true, my ingredients in the levain were as you prescribed, 90mg starter, 45 flour and 45 water. The dough was the levain, plus 320mg water, 450mg bread flour, 50mg whole wheat, 10 mg salt. I am feeding my starter right now with 45mg water, 35mg King Arthur organic bread flour and 10mg organic dark rye flour from bobs red mill. My dough was the king arthur flour and 50mg of wheat flour from Mulino Sobrino from Italy. Baked with an oven preheated for 45mins at 500 in the center of the oven on a baking stone with water tray at the bottom. When I put the loaf in i poured about 3 cups of boiling water in the tray and sprayed water from spray bottle into the back of the oven. About a minute later I spritzed the wall again, reduced the heat to 450, then after 20 minutes turned the loaf 180 degrees and removed the tray in which the water had completely evaporated. Removed the loaf after 40 mins.
Can't wait to make some other loafs going away for a few days and won't be able to bake until next week can't wait to get back at it. On this loaf the crumb was very even, on another loaf that was only all white flour i did get a bit of a big hole along the top under the fully risen crust. Any idea what causes this? The wheat flour bread seemed less loose and held its shape very well during the 4 hour proof.