I propose as follows;
Post any terms, including bakers acronyms and definitions that may be relevant and accurate. I will then continue to compile a running list in this post with bulleted points. The term must be stated with a clear definition in this way here:
eg.
- Sourdough a mixture of cereal flour/meal and water that harbours dominant endemic populations of yeasts and lactobacillus in a symbiotic relationship fermenting endemic dough nutrients to aerate or leaven a dough typically used for "sourdough" bread.
Ok, I'll accept input into refinement of these terms but your arguement must be supported with fact and historical precedence. When there is consensus, I'll include it in the list. I expect the majority of the terms to be straight forward but there might be some contention with some terms and proper nouns. I'm sure we can get through it over the course of a year? six months? we'll see.
BTW I'll accept discussion about the meanings of relevant words and anything that generally fits in with the purpose of this thread, but please lets not clog this with hugs and kisses type of chit chat, there's plenty of room for that on the rest of the board.
I'll accept your correction (my typing is prone to errors) at any time but since I'm going to be compiling we need to determine who should have the casting vote if a term meaning needs a resolution for acceptance. I't may not come to that, but .......
Is there broad agreement on this? Aye or nay?
__________________________________________________________________________
I've posted a draft of the table - below - discussed in the thread. However, I've edited this table, removed "sourdough leaven content". Upon objections from the floor it was considered peripheral to a set of sourdough baking terms and definitions. As stated a poll will be conducted in the near future to gauge the support, or lack of support, for these terms.
DRAFT
| Function | My adopted terms | Definition |
| Inoculating culture | Starter | A small portion of mature sourdough used to inoculate or "start" a larger batch of flour and water referred to as "sourdough or leaven". At maturity the original weight of "starter" is removed to inoculate or start the next sourdough or leaven, hence it is not included in the yield calculations. |
| Inoculating dough |
Sourdough leaven |
A portion of the total bread dough flour weight inoculated by a starter to form a mature dough of endemic flora - including but not limited to: lactobacillus, and endemic yeasts - used to aerate and produce bread dough maturity. Sourdough leaven can be a single stage fermentation or multiple stage fermentation to maturity. |
| Bread dough |
Sourdough Leaven Bread dough |
A dough containing all the final ingredients, including but not limited to: sourdough leaven, that is used as the final dough in the bread making process. This dough is baked to form bread. |
|
| ||
|
The process: fermentation |
Sourdough leaven fermentation | the process of fermenting sourdough leaven is initiated by a polyculture in a natural symbiosis of endemic origin. Typically a mix of lactobacillus and sourdough leaven yeasts. Bakers yeast strains are not deemed typical nor included. |
| The product | Sourdough Leaven Bread | Bread of sourdough leaven; does not include any other fermentation other than the endemic polyculture of sourdough leaven from the first to the final stage until entry into the oven. |
Replies
Is there broad agreement on this? Aye or nay?
[/quote]
Aye
* I can be rough and tough too.
Should this list be pinned right at the top together with the first post? Or will it be a running list which is added on as terms are decided, i.e. cut and paste and add?
I think the first method will be neater. Anyone who wants to read the discussion, which can get convoluted, can scroll down. However, if the forum's mechanism allows the last thread to be accessed at one stroke, then the 2nd choice is preferable. Just my 2 sen.
Yes, I imagined I could post the list in the body of the first as the jargon come rolling in; with convoluted discussions below.
So your idea is exactly as I saw it would unfold. Your sense is worth more than 2!
PS Maedi, are you able to allow me to format the text into two columns? Then the terms and their definitions can be separated neatly by justifying left in one, and right in the other.
Thanks TP, if you wish to be assistant house keeper I'd have no objection, on the contrary would welcome your help if you're willing and able.
I also propose if a division is required, with "ayes to my left, nays to the right", John D have the casting vote in event of an impasse? all those say,... aye, ....no? I think the ayes have it!
I'm repeating myself, already! [img]http://sourdough.com.au/modules/smileys/packs/example/wink.png[/img]
....though methinks that's an archaic word. Delighted to assist as Keeper of What is Right and what is wrong Left. John has got me started to think out of the jar.
Im going to start with a negative downer....and my last attempt to convince anyone that the term "mother" should not be in a bread lexicon....unless it refers to Frank Zappas band.
(1)It is borrowed from wine fermentation technology and has never been a baking industry term.We might as well call the leaven a "must".
(2) It is conceptually, and functionally different in meaning to what happens in a sourdough chef leaven. Consider: The term "mother" is a static organism which produces offspring. It is classicly suspended in a nutritive liquid and the offspring or parts of it are used to seed new batches. This is not the same as happens in a s/d. The leaven is continually being renewed and there is no static ?mother? at all.(as part of my fresh interpretation of language, i think inverted commas are boring and pre 9/11, so i use question marks instead..especially when i question the word......hope everyone is cool with that.)......its the infinite,it came from the ether,and will be there still long after we and the "mothers"are gone.
)3) It sucks. ( they are another fresh interpretation of punctuation..parallel brackets(
)4( I dont like it. (cheek brackets)
(5) Graham is an illiterate bogan if he doesnt agree.
For example Bilheux, Escoffier, Herve and Pouradier in "Special and Decorative Breads" as does Nancy Silverton and others.
It would be good if we could agree common terms. It seems there is much confusion.
Long term storage culture: "starter", "mother", "motherfucker" (as bakers say "feed the motherf*") "leaven" "levain" "chef"
Dough saved from one bake to the next: "old dough", "vielle pate" "levain", "chef" (key)
First elaboration: "sponge" "biga"(stiff), "poolish"(wet) "starter" "levain" "preferment" "First build" "levain de premiere"
Second elaboration: "levain refrachi" "Anfrisch sour" "Second build"
Third elaboration, ready to mix to dough: "levain de tout point" "Basic Sour" "preferment" "sponge"
Flour and water mix without leaven: "autolyse" "soaker" (grains and seeds)
Personally I use:
Long term storage culture from which others are derived: "mother"
The small amount of culture which inoculates the elaboration: "chef"
The elaboration: "sponge" or "preferment" or "biga" (for 50% hydration) or "poolish" (for 100% hydration or more)
Starter is a more general term, as is Levain (unless qualified such as Levain de chef)
Preferment can also be confusing as it can refer to a soaker as well.
See also http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbread/sdDefinitions.html
(5) Graham is an illiterate bogan if he doesnt agree.
[/quote]Thanks John. Now I can laugh about all this and we can get serious with anyone who is just using this forum as an excuse to say motherf*? Jacklang you are on shaky ground but I like the way you have used the term 'elaboration', so you are excused. As an admin person I am going to keep my distance from this post.
I will just report that Mother is a term I hear rather than use, but for some people it describes the piece of the previous day's dough, before salt was added, that is held over with the purpose of inoculating a new (daughter?...but it could be a boy John!
But as Jacklang says, to him it describes a long term storage culture. There is obviously way too much confusion here. Please sort it out.
Hi Danubian, paste the code below into the top of the html view (blue button '<>' at the top when posting.) Make sure you click 'Update HTML' and a sample table will appear in the editor which you can edit.
<table border="1">
<tr>
<td>row 1, cell 1</td>
<td>row 1, cell 2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>row 2, cell 1</td>
<td>row 2, cell 2</td>
</tr>
</table>
....though methinks that's an archaic word. Delighted to assist as Keeper of What is Right and what is wrong Left. John has got me started to think out of the jar.
[/quote]
Prerhaps, I should request you take the position of Sergeant-at- Arms since the hecklers in the stalls are at it already!! [img]http://sourdough.com.au/modules/smileys/packs/example/jawdrop.gif[/img]
[quote=Danubian][snip]
BTW I'll accept discussion about the meanings of relevant words and anything that generally fits in with the purpose of this thread, but please let's not clog this with hugs and kisses type of chit chat, there's plenty of room for that on the rest of the board.
[snip]
[/quote]
Be careful what you wish for.
For example Bilheux, Escoffier, Herve and Pouradier in "Special and Decorative Breads" as does Nancy Silverton and others.
It would be good if we could agree common terms. It seems there is much confusion.
Long term storage culture: "starter", "mother", "motherfucker" (as bakers say "feed the motherf*") "leaven" "levain" "chef"
Dough saved from one bake to the next: "old dough", "vielle pate" "levain", "chef" (key)
First elaboration: "sponge" "biga"(stiff), "poolish"(wet) "starter" "levain" "preferment" "First build" "levain de premiere"
Second elaboration: "levain refrachi" "Anfrisch sour" "Second build"
Third elaboration, ready to mix to dough: "levain de tout point" "Basic Sour" "preferment" "sponge"
Flour and water mix without leaven: "autolyse" "soaker" (grains and seeds)
Personally I use:
Long term storage culture from which others are derived: "mother"
The small amount of culture which inoculates the elaboration: "chef"
The elaboration: "sponge" or "preferment" or "biga" (for 50% hydration) or "poolish" (for 100% hydration or more)
Starter is a more general term, as is Levain (unless qualified such as Levain de chef)
Preferment can also be confusing as it can refer to a soaker as well.
See also http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbread/sdDefinitions.html
[/quote]
Sheesh, I don't know where to start with this hotch potch! Jack, you're having a lend of us with your intertwining yeast terms and sourdough terms as interchangeable.
The sourdough thought police will be summoned soon, and you can forget about legal warrants! When they arrive there's no questions asked, only rendition for counter-revolutionary suspects.
[quote=Danubian]hugs, kisses and chit chat will prove more fruitful?!
[/quote]
This is such a long-awaited t_opical fruit that we must allow some warming-up sessions to have a go at it. I'd need a Nimbus 2008 to handle the toughies.
Good luck!
Sheesh, I don't know where to start with this hotch potch! Jack, you're having a lend of us with your intertwining yeast terms and sourdough terms as interchangable.
The sourdough thought police will be summoned soon, and you can forget about legal warrants! When they arrive there's no questions asked, only rendition for counter-revolutionary suspects.
[/quote]
Are you saying there are different terms for the same thing for yeast and sourdough (and presumably mixed cultures and old dough)?
I can understand different terms in different languages or countries. Perhaps we should have a comparison table... we could be thought leaders and define the terms for the global community
Tekky, keep that Nimbus poised never the less.............. this may get more interesting than we bargained for.
BTW that reminds me you think we may need more staff?
- head-kicker
- resident jester
- toe cutter
Suggestions welcome.Are you saying there are different terms for the same thing for yeast and sourdough (and presumably mixed cultures and old dough)?
I can understand different terms in different languages or countries. Perhaps we should have a comparison table... we could be thought leaders and define the terms for the global community[/quote]
Yep, if you want to make a table and post it, great.
BTW you didn't mention any Slovak terms; "Kvas", "Kvasok", "Kvasinky" "kysnute cesto" etc, etc ...
Croc, you can add the Polish terms if you wish? .... "Kwas"
What about Cardassian terms from the "old planet" where the bakers were well skilled, such as 0))(`~/) and my favourite is" QQQ)()(:::><:::)"
Jack, have you read the previous posts?, ive already made the points about the difference in terminology between yeast and sourdough baking. For example"poolish" and "biga" are yeast baking terms.I think "aceto biga" refers to a naturally fermented starter, in Italian (but i need confirmation and information), and "poolish" as we know a French reference to Polish supposedly,and unusually the French didnt have a word for the process,because they largely used levain, not yeast as in barm.Barm bread was more widely practiced outside France and initiated with a seeded "sponge",which is a "poolish"....introduced to French baking(with stiff and stiff opposition) in the 19C after the advent of the new bakers yeast.
So i would argue that they arent applicable
However since this is an English language board it might be useful to restrict ourselves to terms used in English speaking bakeries, otherwise the task becomes too large. What seems clear is that even quite recently different bakers used different local terms.
What documentation for your claim that biga and Poolish only apply to yeast doughs? As you say yourself "aceto biga" applies to a naturally fermented starter, which to me is sourdough. (aside: what does "starter" mean? Is starter the same as sponge, or only the mother culture?)
The terms "levain de chef" "levain de premiere", and "levain de tout point", are widely quoted from Watt's Dictionary of Chemical Terms, about 1815. These clearly include both yeast and sourdough
Richter's "Vienna Breads" (1950?) uses Sponge (Dampfl) and "Poliche", and again can be yeast, natural leaven or old dough, or even rye breads.
The Detmold process uses terms "starter" "basic" and "full".
[quote=Danubian]I'm sure you're right; play on folks, what's another few day after a couple of decades, eh?
Tekky, keep that Nimbus poised never the less.............. this may get more interesting than we bargained for.
BTW that reminds me you think we may need more staff?
- head-kicker
- resident jester
- toe cutter
Suggestions welcome.[/quote]
Don't you find it nice and cosy enough now? Psst....don't encourage them.
((John, stop pulling your hair over the M word))
If I'm not mistaken, another term for Italian natural leaven is lievito naturale.
Cheers
Tony
Sorry not to acknowledge your contribution sooner, the ranks are restless and my attention was diverted. However, you're an invaluable asset to this exercise.
Ok, I haven't tried it yet, but perhaps you could tute me on how to use this baffling code when the time comes. "Baffling code" is right at home in this thread!
[quote=jacklang]If you have definitions and pronunciation guide for the Cardassian (or any other) terms I would be happy to include them. I only know of "kvas" as the drink or soup, and kavinsky as meaning yeast[/quote]
In Slovak the meaning of the word "Kvas" depends on the context, but it's usually used as a generic word for pre-ferment, which can be yeasted (English ~ sponge) or it can be "kysnute cesto" (English ~ sourdough).
[quote=Jacklang]However since this is an English language board it might be useful to restrict ourselves to terms used in English speaking bakeries, otherwise the task becomes too large. What seems clear is that even quite recently different bakers used different local terms.[/quote]
To clarify; the purpose of this thread is clarify the current confusing mish-mash Australian sourdough lexicon (I use the word "lexicon" in reference to the current although there is very little systematic or clear about it) and develop a precise language. Perhaps this clarification may emerge one day as the ABA standard sourdough lexicon, but I'd better not presume, if at all, especially this early. So yes, English.
Is this what you want, cap'n?
I cross posted to the BBGA list, since this is an international problem.
Interesting post on this topic from Will McPhail of the The Just Loaf in Beenleigh Australia.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/breadbakersguild/message/17722
Is this what you want, cap'n?
[/quote]
I cross posted to the BBGA list, since this is an international problem.
Interesting post on this topic from Will McPhail of the The Just Loaf in Beenleigh Australia.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/breadbakersguild/message/17722
[/quote]
Jack, that link brings me to a login page at Yahoo to access this. I'm not a Yahoo user. Is there another way to see this?
Australian's don't know shit about shit when it comes to bread. You get a group of Australians coming together to talk about bread and all you have is a bunch of blokes banging their dicks against the wall.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Levain is French. Mere is French for Mother. Madre is Italian. Mother is English. Latin is Dead. Before starting to break things down into masculine nouns and shit how about we all use the same language?
I try to stay away from foreign words because I am all about reviving Australian bread culture and Australian baked goods. To do that I think its important to use Australian words. Maybe thank Christian Vabret for that since I am now a triple A baker, Arrogant Arsehole Australian, when it comes to this sort of stuff.
Anyway, here's what I use.
Mother. Even though I don't use a mother I would still call it a mother if I did use one.
Old Dough.
Starter-> Small amount used as an innoculation.
I usually call them phases or stages instead of elaborations.
Elaboration has too many syllables for it to be used commonly and traditionally by bakers.
I like to use wet sponge (poolish), stiff sponge(biga) or just sponge (sponge). After doing some reading I came to the conclusion that this was more correct than biga, poolish, or whatever. These words come from too many different languages to exist in Old e England bakeries and carried into Australia. So I stick with sponge. Its English and its definitely firmly in English bread jargon. Poolish and Biga not so much.
Leaven. I mean what the hell is a levain. Its not even in the dictionary. Ya know... the English one. I must admit I have a tendancy to use the Oxford English Dictionary (my copy is a little
dated) and not the latest online edition of Jam Whatever Funky Shit We Could Think Up Dictionary so there needs to be a little asterisk here stating that this statement is based on referencing said Oxford English Dictionary.
I also could not find the words 'levain', 'de', or 'tout' in my dictionary but I did find the word 'point'.
And then there is that bit in the bible, how there is levained bread and unlevained bread. Jesus was a Jew and now he's meant to be French too... no wonder why I gave up Christianity long ago. Its just too confusing.
So in my opinion, it would definitely help if we could all agree on a set of terms, and the first step would be to be agree on which language we are going to use. I vote for English.
Will
The Just Loaf
Beenleigh Australia.
I'm not sure it's quite as dire as he suggests in Australia. But his point that we don't have a standard bakers language is true, it's all a mish-mash of European and American terms.
However, unless we make a start it'll never improve, and this thread is an attempt to defy the odds.
I'll be posting a short list over the weekend to start the ball rolling.
Is there a similar problem in the Uk, and if so is there a similar attempt to clarify terms and standardise bakers language in the UK or is it still a non issue?
Old Dart??? I'm from Cambridge UK, and yes as far as I can see it's world wide problem. Before modern communications it was OK for each bakery or town to have its own language and terms.
Now with the power of the internet we need a common set of terms, universally.
Old Dart??? I'm from Cambridge UK, and yes as far as I can see its world wide problem. Before modern communications i was OK for each bakery or town to have its own language and terms.
Now with the power of the internet we need a common set of terms, universally.
[/quote]
Yes, I see; that makes sense. Of course every language will have its own words, but should there be a universal 'framework' with a logical hierarchy in which the words of those local languages can fit? If that's possible. I can't see that happening nor do I see that as 'organic' in the true sense of the word. Language is a peculiar and dynamic thing.
Is it a desirable thing to have a universal framework?
Old Dart??? I'm from Cambridge UK, and yes as far as I can see its world wide problem. Before modern communications i was OK for each bakery or town to have its own language and terms.
Now with the power of the internet we need a common set of terms, universally.
[/quote]
Yes, I see; that makes sense. Of course every language will have its own words, but should there be a universal 'framework' with a logical hierarchy in which the words of those local languages can fit? If that's possible. I can't see that happening nor do I see that as 'organic' in the true sense of the word. Language is a peculiar and dynamic thing.
Is it a desirable thing to have a universal framework?
[/quote]
Is it possible that we don't know what we are saying because of the various and common labels?
Is it possible that we don't know what we are saying because of the various and common labels?
[/quote]
There's ample demonstration we know what we are talking about, but it's not standardised, so others don't know what we mean when we say one thing and not another.
Well thanks Will, i now see the error of my ways, how could we have been so narrow minded and ignorant? thanks for pointing it out to us. Australian speak is a mixture of lots of wog words mate, and English is a most dynamic evolving language ,continually adding words like "bogan" and"levain",(and its "leaven" in the Bible,not levain.) Leaven is the English word i favour for the process,and always tried to use,and called my early (84) Natural Tucker bread"Leaven Bread" but "sourdough" from SF,has been forced on us....but as im not supposed to say coz i wouldnt know shit, and it probably shows too much "book learnin", "Leaven" is an adjective now, not a proper noun....but could still be morphed again if the usage of the word was promoted by a trade group.....is everybody happy with the term "Sourdough", guess it too late to do much about that one?
I wont lose any sleep over the M word Dman, but its as wrong as calling a sourdough a "poolish". They are functionally different processes.....the Cardassian is clear in distinguishing )<<o>>( from )<<oo>>(.
Well thanks Will, i now see the error of my ways, how could we have been so narrow minded and ignorant? thanks for pointing it out to us. Australian speak is a mixture of lots of wog words mate, and English is a most dynamic evolving language ,continually adding words like "bogan" and"levain",(and its "leaven" in the Bible,not levain.) Leaven is the English word i favour for the process,and always tried to use,and called my early (84) Natural Tucker bread"Leaven Bread" but "sourdough" from SF,has been forced on us....but as im not supposed to say coz i wouldnt know shit, and it probably shows too much "book learnin", "Leaven" is an adjective now, not a proper noun....but could still be morphed again if the usage of the word was promoted by a trade group.....is everybody happy with the term "Sourdough", guess it too late to do much about that one?[/quote]
Funny though, as "sourdough" is a literal translation of German "sauerteig", yet it was San Fran? More curious is that there are a significant number of authors who refer to the San Fran process as the "French Method"."Leaven" seems to be the Anglicised version of the French? And you're correct, the bibical reference is "leaven" which is also used as an adjective.
[quote=JohnD]I wont lose any sleep over the M word Dman, but it's as wrong as calling a sourdough a "poolish". They are functionally different processes.....the Cardassian is clear in distinguishing )<<o>>( from )<<oo>>(.[/quote]
Yep, I agree it's wrong, although I did once make reference to M. The first time I saw it used in reference to sourdough was in an American journal the AACC. Since then I've only seen reference to M in conection with Central American corn tortilla but I caution it was again, AACC.
err...surely "sourdough" is an adjective (e.g. "sourdough starter" "sourdough baguette") If it is used as a noun (which I find jarring) should it not refer to a dough, in the sense of a final dough, not the intermediate sponge step?
As I posted above "mother" in the sense of mother culture is widely used in both professional (e.g Kulp and Lorenz Handbook of Dough Fermentations) and popular (e.g Scherber and Dupree "Amy's Bread") bread literature.
Its because the Bakers on the gold fields were Germans...who else? and the name flowed from the translation.Otherwise it would be levain-ish or lievito-ish. That these authors refer to SF as the French method means they had a very restricted view...its a universal method....and to say there is only one method in France is also not a reflection of observable reality.....the SF "method" only applies to those who practise the especially sour enhancing "goldfields"method, because there are some really skilled sourdough bakers there who reduce excess sourness through sound management, and make topline sourdough......so which is the real sourdough?...organoleptically ( from a sensory evaluation) they are quite different....you cant do this with yeast bread and shows the application of technique is the art in artisan and the "s" is for science.(ART In Science And Nature).
That "SF" technique where the bread ( very stiff dough)is shaped and left for 10 or even more hours is a no-brainer from a technical point of view.(and i also would have thought rare in France). However eccentric(and it is)...its a successful commercial technique... but as ive said,i didnt like it at all....even the supposed good ones.
Leaven is only an adjective in the Bible when it refers symbolically to "hametz" (personal characteristics), isnt it? There are references to it as a noun,and its use is clearly described...when the Israelites left their leaven behind in the flight from Egypt, in there someone fully describes your or mine chef-starter-culture.
As a religious edict against eating "leavened bread" (perhaps seen as an adjective),its most likely this meant sourdough and so were using it as a noun,as they didnt brew but drank wine,so didnt seem to make barm breads(meaning there werent other"leavened" breads). Plus the religious understanding is (quite correctly) that fermentation is initiated naturally-inherently soon after the dough or batter is made...and so the direction to ensure the bread isnt leavened,is to make the dough and immediately make matzoh from it to reduce the possibility of it being leavened....or "Leavened bread"(noun).(leavened bread is to be avoided at the time of ritual purification because leaven is symbolic of "hametz"..arrogance etc).
Just my take on it classically as a noun (also moonlighting as an adverb) but i dont reckon as an adjective until the invention of yeast in the 18th and 19th C...thats why it has such appeal.
WWW.BRING BACK LEAVEN DOT COM.
[quote=JohnD]I wont lose any sleep over the M word Dman, but its as wrong as calling a sourdough a "poolish". They are functionally different processes.....the Cardassian is clear in distinguishing )<<o>>( from )<<oo>>(.[/quote]
Yep, I agree it's wrong, although I did once make reference to M. The first time I saw it used in reference to sourdough was in an American journal the AACC. Since then I've only seen reference to M in conection with Central American corn tortilla but I caution it was again, AACC.
[/quote]My source for Mother came from an Australian Italian, who travels to Asia a lot and was describing a San Francisco method to me.
Yesterday I spoke with him on the phone and he said that he was not being accurate when he previously used the M word to describe what was actually a 'Chef'. He agrees with jacklang that Mother is used by some to describe and old (perpetually fed?) dough rather than a piece of dough removed from a mixed bread dough prior to salt being added.
I just wanted to clear that up for the initial list.
Isn't the aim of this exercise to create a list of commonly used terms - a very broad list - and then narrow the list down, using any or a number of methods? We can all finish up with our own lists and then have a friendly vote to see which list is most popular?
We do not need to all agree with the first list...only that it is a list of terms that are being used. The final lists are the ones that will cause controversy!
The aim of the exercise could also be to flush out rouge words as we go............i doesnt matter what usage is really,as we can all see from this site that people commonly use poolish for example to describe s/d....its a matter of whether these commonly used terms are just slang or inappropriate, whether used by an academic or a tradesman. Academics or gourmets such as Escoffier would be the last to know the accurate lexicon of the baking trade, and would be the first to borrow a word..... The test surely is on a functional basis...does the word adequately describe or fit a process? Functionally,"mother" does not...it is a slang inappropriately taken from vinegar manufacture which describes a very different process than the continual refreshment or feeding of a polyculture.In the same way as "mother" is used,I could easily insist that my sourdough culture is actually a yoghurt, and put up an almost watertight argument for that....but .......
Graham, microbiologically, how does one distinguish a kept perpetually fed dough from one taken from the dough prior to salt addition...they are functionally the same entity?
All this discussion has been a long time coming,and is appropriate.
Does Calvell use "mother'....anybody?(dont have his books to hand).
Im waiting for Dmans list so we can nit pick it!
here's Jack's list for us to mull over....
Sponge;
First leaven;
First stage;
First phase;
First refreshment;
Biga (yeasted dough if about 50% hydration);
Poolish or pouliche (yeasted dough if >100% hydration)Starter
PrefermentChef refers to a piece of dough held back from the previous batch (I'm assuming with salt) and built three times to produce bread.
I heard the term "back slopping" to describe the activity of a perpetually fed starter, whereby some of the starter is pulled out and then built to the approprite wieght, etc.
"Leaven" isnt anglicised "levain",they are both from the latin "Levamen".
And you will get an argument about "backslopping" Pane, i think thats a bad translation from the Cardassian "wmwmwm1IllI1".
Thanks for looking up Calvell, its pretty telling that the French dont use it,and Calvell doesnt mention the M word.
Jack,why the terms poolish and biga? as you say,they are yeast baking terms...this is about sourdough.
It seems to me that because Bakers use different techniques, and only one i know uses the refreshments you mention,that the terminology we are trying to agree upon is more about what is inherently sourdough......French bakers for example,have no problem describing their bread as "Pain au levain", when they admit adding bakers yeast, and Calvell even does this. So for me, the word levain is useless...and why i would like to see the word "Leaven" used, as a proper noun which signifies a known entity....and this as a global word that bakers of authentic sourdough could use (transcending language) to distinguish it from the impostors. "Sourdough" is rapidly being devoured by the machine, time to outflank that move.
here's Jack's list for us to mull over....
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Jack's List is an excellent collection of terms.
Thank you TeckPoh for drawing up the list and getting the code to function.
How to Edit a List
Simply 'quote' (instead of reply) to this you will get an EDITABLE copy of the list in your comment. So you can add or subtract from this list or anyone else's list. It would be appropriate to reference the list that you are modifying (this is partly achieved automatically when you quote).
Can someone build a 'super list'? It would be beneficial to have a list which includes all the baking terms we uncover as a point of reference.
This discussion on baking terms could be a long one...and late contributors should have an opportunity to provide their own opinions on terms that are not included on individual or preferential lists.
Thank you. Graham
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