Uh-oh, I don't think this was the idea...

Danubian,
I thank you for your rye help for my sake, as Michael and friends on the German sites are helpful, but my German is non=existent! I can order food and bier and try to get from point a to b, I left Europe when I was 4.5 years old with French and German tongues losing out to my English in the end!
Thanks!
Jeremy

You're welcome!

Here she is...a 5-grain loaf (spelt, wholemeal, rye, oat, millet, black rice...oops, looks like 6-grain). I proved it seam at the bottom. When I flipped it over for the oven, I found that my seams have just about all disappeared as the dough was pretty wet. I gave it some small (help) slashes close to the hairline cracks. Not a very clear pix with such a dark loaf...but I think I got it...albeit with some cheaty help.

[img]http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/7903-2/5graincrack.jpg[/img]

very wet dough, but still lovely, reddish hue!

Jeremy

[quote="Danubian"]...

G'day Michael, from my understanding "Sauerteig" means "sourdough"!...

[/quote]

G'day Danubian,

... and you could add: for every clear minded human being too!

Danubian, you're a well informed observer of German baker's language.

Yes, speaking precisely the starter is called „Anstellgut“.

An old term meaning perhaps an „able good“ or „material to place in“. Who knows the ethymology exactly? From region to region there were other words for it. In the Allgäu near the alps, where Jeremy's father lived it was called „Urhab“. An Aleman expression for „creator“ or „great-grandpa“

"Anstellgut" is a very well defined term. It is the starter. In the following procedure sourdough changes its names...

The refreshing of the starter at different hydrations and temperatures is called „guidance“ of the sourdough. And sourdough changes its name step by step. (Btw: (a proud baker often dislikes the word „feeding“)

A starter at his first refreshment is called „Anfrischsauer“ that means refreshing sour. Simple

Second step: after the second refreshment of the „Anfrischsauer“ it changes to „Grundsauer“, that means something like „basic sour“...

Third step: third refreshment of the now called „Grundsauer“ leads to the „Vollsauer“. I think you may call it full sour, meaning you reached a powerful active sourdough... Put the "Vollsauer" in the fridge und you have "Anstellgut" again.

Still awake or is it too boring? (yawn!)

All right. Now to the point „Sauerteig“ and „Sauer“ These two terms never mean the ready loaf made with sourdough in our language. It always means the living culture speaking more in a scientific language. Sad to say there are only a few real bakers left in our country who are able to make sourdough by themselves. They buy cultures from the industry and trust their claim, that only they could provide them with the most powerful cultures. Not enough they claim a good baker has to throw away his culture after a use of 3 months and has to buy a new one... Claiming nasty bacterias would spoil the dough otherwise. Sad to say most bakers in Germany believe these lies.

So and now to the battle „Sauerteig vs Sauer“. The difference in language should stress: only rye is the real thing. Another nasty lie.

The battle with these terms you can find in reading the small printed notes in German Wikipedia. Very boring stuff.

Sorry for being boring and being bad tempered in the morning

Michael

Not a bit boring MIchael!
German baking is one of the least understood bread baking methods, and I also agree you can't find a real "artisan" bakery in Germany anymore! On my last visit to my old stomping grounds in Stuttgart I was so disappointed not only in bread but even the food, I couldn't have a currywurst like when I used too! The whole concept of eating in Europe in general has fallen into the dismal Americanized hurried and unimportant style! We rush so much we've forgotten to thank the generations before us for the humble origins and great food traditions, thankfully some people have held on to try to at least keep the flame lit, (sounds like a sermon for slow food!)
Anyway Michael, I appreciate your explaining this tradition and make these words more clear for us non speaking German bread baking enthusiasts, you have a convert!

Thanks,
Jeremy

You're welcome, Jake. Thanks for prompting this 'test'...the rebel in me is liking this free crackle style.

G'day Michael,

I'm with Jeremy on this, not boring at all. I'm a keen student of Spicher & Stephan, [u]HANDBUCH SAUERTEIG[/u].

I was very keen on the [b]Grundsauer ubernach[/b] and the[b] Vollsauer ubernacht [/b] in a three stage sourdough but now I'm not using this. I tend to use a Detmold single phase with modifications to suit our current flour supply.

Jake, another thing to consider is to make sure you aren't shorting the final proof time. Based on the light color of the crust, excessive/erratic spring, and the interior folds not incorperating, underproofing would be on my mind. A wetter dough (as suggested) should also help.
-tyler

[quote="Skua"]official baker's language means: using the terms of the mighty German baker's guild[/quote]
Whats that?
Cologne guild? You are right! Hamburg? Not. (State march, 2006, last time I've mailed with some guilds)
I think, schools and research cetres are official, too.
Detmold uses "Sauerteig", Weinheim has used "Sauerteige" (embraced wheat for me), Isernhäger (industrial) uses both, i.e. they speak of "Sauerteig", but the products are named "Sauer" to be easy differenced.
Some exponent members of Colone baking guilde doesn't even accept the existance of any sour wheat dough

Danubian, which edition of "Handbuch Sauerteig" do you have? Newest including additions by M. Gänzle?
I've only seen the first edition long time ago. Could it be interesting for me?

[size=50](nice try to edit my post )[/size]

Dear Markus,

don't let us crawl too deep in this nonsense. History will laugh on us. Sourdough seems to be older than mankind. There is no need to utter stupid things like wheat sourdough is non-existent. Did you know that we found prehistorical neolithical wheat in China. And millstones too? I think these early homo sapiens had called their sourdough sourdough too..

Michael

[quote="bianchifan"]Danubian, which edition of "Handbuch Sauerteig" do you have? Newest including additions by M. Gänzle?
I've only seen the first edition long time ago. Could it be interesting for me?[/quote]

[quote="Handbuch Sauerteig"]4. uberarbeitete und erweiterte Auflage 1993 [/quote]

4th Revised and extended edition 1993

Danubian, I though of this.. [url=http://www.deutschesfachbuch.de/info/detail.php?isbn=3899471660&word=%22.... Auflage von 2006
[/url]

list of [url=http://www.deutschesfachbuch.de/info/detail.php?isbn=3899471660&part=3&word=%22Handbuch+sauerteig%22&PHPSESSID=217808b7849edd8d892530db06bd526f]content[/url]

PROF. DR. MICHAEL G. GÄNZLE and fellows have done phantastic job on discovering the secrets of sourdough microflora

My question, Markus or Michael, when are you guy's going to write a German bread book for us who can't speak the language? I have one book my fathers wife sent me, fairly easy to understand in a bread sort of way, still we need more info!

Jeremy

Markus,

That's one I'll have to add to my collection. I must admit I havent visited Behr's webpages for a long time. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Although the page you posted has it for 106.47€, at [url=http://www.behrs.de/s/index.php?ber=1&lg=][b]Behr's Verlag[/b][/url] the price is a little better 99,50€

Jeremy, if you continue to read the German baking forum you'll be surprised how much German you'll pick up. Better yet a German girlfriend would do wonders for your German... LOL

[quote]Jeremy, if you continue to read the German baking forum you'll be surprised how much German you'll pick up. Better yet a German girlfriend would do wonders for your German... LOL[/quote]
[/quote]
Boris,
Yeah it isn't so bad, I can get by, it's just the differences I guess in the regional or technical aspect! As for a girlfriend, well I am married, but will be alone this august if any of you frauleins are around Basel! Look me up?!!!!
Jeremy

Jeremy,

Don't worry! If we talking about science, a paper is always available in English. Otherwise it is not worth to read it. Scientific BS only written to enlarge the CV of the writers...This Mister Gänzle has written a lot of papers, some of them are free in full length if you google a bit.

Other question: are scientific papers good for bakers? Mostly sponsored by the industry and not by independ money? The answer could be: yes: because we loose our traditions. Secrets told from the masters to their asssociateds are endangered to vanish.

The best way to retain the old knowledge is perhaps... to travel abroad, to keep in contact and work for a while with real good bakers, to collect old scripts in different languages and becoming a famous baker in your own city, making sourdough addicts wherever you live. You know there are bakers that choosed just this way. Don't laugh: "Bread", the book of this certain New England baker is one of it. (Dan's latest book is the next on my agenda). There will be more bakers writing their books and sharing their experience, I'm sure. Because people won't accept to be fed with dog's cake on the long run.

Michael

[quote="Skua"]Jeremy,

Don't worry! If we talking about science, a paper is always available in English. Otherwise it is not worth to read it. Scientific BS only written to enlarge the CV of the writers...This Mister Gänzle has written a lot of papers, some of them are free in full length if you google a bit.

Other question: are scientific papers good for bakers? Mostly sponsored by the industry and not by independ money? The answer could be: yes: because we loose our traditions. Secrets told from the masters to their asssociateds are endangered to vanish.[/quote]

I suppose it depends on your point of view, I find sourdough science interesting and I'm a baker who appreciates wholesome food and the craft of making beautiful bread.

[quote="Danubian"]at [url=http://www.behrs.de/s/index.php?ber=1&lg=][b]Behr's Verlag[/b][/url] the price is a little better 99,50€[/quote]
Boris, Behr's is correct, though it was [url=http://www.abzonline.de/praxis/2006,36,609221062.html]cheaper[/url] at behr's some month ago .., I posted "deutschesfachbuch" cuese of the content so you may check what's new
I've been told Gänzle had changed a lot after Spichers death.

O Danubian (deep sigh),

yesterday I tried your volcanic loaf again.With a soaker and all but this was not the point. Well I got bread, but please, no shots here…

[quote="Danubian"]... When it's time for baking, place your hand on the top of the dough piece carefully and up turn your basket. Then gently roll over onto the dusted peel with the seam "down" ...[/quote]

O yeah… nice try… My hands are large, size 8.5 (in professional gloves) and I tried to roll over the 1.5 kg dough (hey you showed a pleasant round “boule”, I made something as a saucer in a basket). All right, 5 fingers stuck deeply in the well hydrated dough. Oh Lord! On the peel… still more flattening, in the superhot well steamed oven… arghs… oh the stone… please give me some spring… no?

Well the inside of my mind depends a lot on the outside of my loafs . And feeling a bit depressed I gave the loaf only one night after bake to stabilize its crumb. And cut it in the early mornig… Stupido!

Oh no I won’t give up. But on your pictures of your bakery everything looked so damned easy…(lol)

Hi TeckPoh ? it is very pleasing for me to hear lovely compliments about our hills. I really do love them. But we never have any tourism or something like this. And hearing nice words from somebody who lives in a tropical paradise, this is something new. Last Sunday I did a slow ride to shoot some pics and put them here not to spoil the thread:

http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/v/u ... 97c07635e3

I’d really like to see some pics of your countryside, fishing, rice fields, and … I cannot imagine when I really come to think of it . Or do you live in Kuala Lumpur? Could be a nice bike ride too! Hm, let’s study your blog, perhaps I’ll find something you did with your lense.

Hi Jeremy, hey on my bike its only the good old Shimano series, no beauty, Sram is the latest and lightest, nice debut in road biking! But considering you ride a Gios too? There’s nothing better than the real Campa stuff, don' you think so? Only my old fashioned opinion!

Best wishes to all!

Michael

This is going to be soooooooo OT, (forgive me, Maedi) but, oh my, Michael, the pix are gorgeous!!! I won't be lying if I say there's nothing beautiful in KL....but good news is we don't have to travel too far up or down or to the east of the peninsula for some nice getaways. We were just up north 300 km plus to Penang island, aka Pearl of the Orient last week. [url=http://www.lensamalaysia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5364]Here's some pix[/url]; you won't find anything other than sourdough in my blog.

if u want the free forming craks, the internal temperature has to be 210 degrees farenheit, if it still doesn't crack, then the dough might be a little to tough.

[quote="Skua"]O Danubian (deep sigh),

yesterday I tried your volcanic loaf again.With a soaker and all but this was not the point. Well I got bread, but please, no shots here…

[quote="Danubian"]... When it's time for baking, place your hand on the top of the dough piece carefully and up turn your basket. Then gently roll over onto the dusted peel with the seam "down" ...[/quote]

O yeah… nice try… My hands are large, size 8.5 (in professional gloves) and I tried to roll over the 1.5 kg dough (hey you showed a pleasant round “boule”, I made something as a saucer in a basket). All right, 5 fingers stuck deeply in the well hydrated dough. Oh Lord! On the peel… still more flattening, in the superhot well steamed oven… arghs… oh the stone… please give me some spring… no?

Well the inside of my mind depends a lot on the outside of my loafs . And feeling a bit depressed I gave the loaf only one night after bake to stabilize its crumb. And cut it in the early mornig… Stupido!

Oh no I won’t give up. But on your pictures of your bakery everything looked so damned easy…(lol)[/quote]

Michael, not to worry, however, I tell my apprentices not to use their fingers individually but to use their hands like paddles with their fingers held together, that way they can't indent the dough too severely or puncture it either. Did your dough piece collapse in the basket? Perhaps too much hydration, flour from different mills will exhibit varying water absorption capacity let alone differing ends of the earth! However, if you judge hydration was within tollerance perhaps you're mixing it too much, if the dough seems a little excessively 'creamy'. This also tends to make it unable to cope with handling.

BTW nice pictures too.

Here's a few of the best loaves from a small group of apprentices.

[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_3010.jpg[/img]

The internal character, crumb.

[img]http://sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/8601-2/IMG_3081.jpg[/img]

I couldn't resist having a go at this fabulous looking Rye. I forgot to add the 20% Baker's Flour so mine ended up being close to 100% Rye. I started by gradually adding more rye into the feed flour to train my starter to Rye over 2 days. For the final dough mix I used 80% Organic Stone-Ground Rye and 20% light Rye.
I followed Danubian's advice and baked a little longer and while the end result is not exactly the same, I did get the cracking effect - just not as much as I would have liked. Next time I will try using 80% rye. Maybe the addition of BF will give more expansion during proofing to get the wider cracks.Anyway I can't wait to try this bread. I am trying to be patient and leave this bread to sit for 24 hours to stabilise the crumb.. but damn it's hard  




Finally I just had to cut it open after 18 hours and it looks and tastes pretty bloody good...