awful way of producing bread

Chorleywood ? CBP?
Never heard of this!
80%? I won' beleive it.
I'm lucky, I sit in Germany with my bum, our baking industries will produce a lot of shit, but such kiddy things? No way.
Poor world to eat those mist, horrible!

Normbake, Bianchifan
I understand that many people uninitiated in the use of the particular process and machines are quick to put (negative) judgment on it.
Its not appropriate also to denigrate large scale commercial baking process as producing worthless bread as that is a big business; think about it the number of consumers for that particular bread is huge( if not astronomical) if compared to the traditional items. Besides many food industry establishments depends on it..
We have to accept that?
Every baking system has its place in society; nothing is bad or good but has its own advantage and disadvantages that depends on the consumers preferences.
.
FYI the most common equipment used for Chorleywood Bread Process is the Tweedy mixer which mixes the dough in 3-5 minutes depending upon the energy input desired. There are mixers (IIRC made in Germany) that exerts the same work intensity to the dough such as Strahmann and Stephan mixers ; therefore the ?Krautz? have also a history of making breads by high speed mixing and indeed there is. I have been in Germany in the past and I had seen examples of bread in German bakeries made by the high speed mixing. There are also bakeries there that make traditional breads mostly sourdough also using high speed mixing in that country

It must be known that in Germany the most popular way of making sourdough bread is the hybridized method( combining bakers yeast with sourdough starter).
If you make a survey in traditional German bakeries, majority of them are using bakers yeast in their sourdough formulations( hybridized systems).
There are only very few commercial sourdough bakeries there that really make their traditional bread without the addition of bakers yeast .

I don?t believe the claim that you cannot simulate the Chorleywood mixing at home scale , its just a matter of understanding the mechanism of that particular dough system. and having the knowledge how to adapt it.
The CBP is a flexible breadmaking system and even its creators in UK have devised methodologies how to get the right bread texture and taste by just modifying the process. Therefore that particular equipment can be used both for making a wide range of breads including traditional breads.
IIRC The results were even published in popular bakers magazine in UK.

If we translate that mixing process to the home scale , the sturdy food processor can exert the same work performance as the Tweedy or Stephan and can make good bread also! In fact I had made modern breads and traditional sourdough in the past using the food processor and it taste fine with less the effort!
I also did the same with the Tweedy Stephan VCM for sourdough mixing as well and the product turns out good and delicious just like the ones we made conventionally.
Proper dough making for a particular bread is not about that a particular machine is rated for maximum energy input to produce a certain product( that you do not like); It?s about modification and adjustments; you have to use common sense and therefore modify the operational parameters of that equipment to make bread dough having the coarse traditional ( or the fine grained modern bread) by just controlling the formulation mixing process and other baking parameters.
Conclusively
Its only a machine, method or technique and it still depends on the operators brains, experience and skill in how to adapt or use it properly in order to fit his needs.

Jack Lang does it all the time...using his Magimix processor, I think... calling it a "no-time" dough...basically, a very short 2-min high-intensity mixing using high levels of preferment and short bulk-fermentation.

The Chorleywood process is a UK version of the the short-time or no-time method, which is widely used in the baking industry. It was developed by Stan Cauvain and others at the Chorleywood Food Research Association.
It was designed to make good bread from the softer flours available here.
It uses high speed mixing with some additional vitamin C to ensure oxidation of the flour and optimum gluten development. Later versions used mixing under air pressure followed by vacuum assisted in nucleation of the crumb texture.
Like any process, it can make good or bad bread, depending on the parameters

I've developed my own home version using sourdough and a food processor as a mixer. The flavour comes from using a ripe preferment, and makes very good bread. I've documented it elsewhere but I'll repeat my current method briefly here:

For flour I use 9% protein or a wholemeal or spelt or a mixture. It doesn't seem particularly sensitive to the gluten level. You may need to adjust the water content to make a soft dough. As its sourdough, the acid will make it get considerably slacker as it matures.

[img]http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/4091-1/DSC02621a.JPG[/img]

100% organic wholemeal (Doves Farm) sourdough made with this method. Note the crumb texture for a 100% wholmeal sourdough loaf.

Stiff preferment:
200g flour
100g water (50% hydration)
10g mother starter
Ferment at 90F for 8-12 hours

Premix:
400g flour
320g water (total is 420g water to 600g flour or 70% hydration)
0.5g (pinch) Vitamin C

leave for an hour

Dough:
All the preferment
All the premix
12g salt

Mix in a strong food processor for 2 mins - might struggle bit.
The dough is almost a cream but will stiffen up. Its easier to handle if you oil or wet your hands and anything it might touch. Give a it a couple of folds and leave in a basin, or in the mixer for 2 hours.
Shape an put into a banneton. Leave for 2 hours or overnight in the fridge.
(4 hours total from mixing to baking, or 2hours +retard in the fridge)

Bake 40 min at 220C/450F with plenty of bottom heat and steam for the first minute.

Hello chembake,

of course, you are right
[quote="chembake"]
the most popular way of making sourdough bread is the hybridized method( combining bakers yeast with sourdough starter)....
There are only very few commercial sourdough bakeries there that really make their traditional bread without the addition of bakers yeast .
[/quote]
It's ok, no problem, I will do so , sometimes..

Of course there are many bakers using some add-ons, some of them had used pure acid with add-ons only, perhaps there had been some industrial bakeries which had used high-speed-kneaders..now, most of them have gone, there was no one anymore to eat their products,
they dusted in the shelves.
Though there are a lot of Fastbakeries, they don't live long, they come and go. Many people prefer sourdoughed breads, not rolls, but even baguettes too. "Slow baking" is the buzzy word
[img]http://www.ihr-baecker-schueren.de/Slow%20Baking/CIMG1598.jpg[/img]
Concerning the machines, I am no baker, I do not know them, I only know hub kneaders, but they need a little bit more time. Stephan is known from Detmold resaerch centrum, he was one of the developers of several growing sourdough procedures.

jacklang,

4 hours or overnight in fridge is this really
[quote]
dramatically reducing the time taken to produce a loaf
[/quote]

I' ve grown up with sour bread "Oberländer", a mix wheat/rye and a lot of "Schwarzbrot" 100% rye, fully soured and I tell you, it was a great difference between "acid" bread and "sourdough" bread.

with this in mind..Cheers

4 hours for an all sourdough? A lot quicker than the usual 1-2 days...essentially there is only proof time, not with much reduced bulk ferment time

The overnight retard is mostly for convenience.

The ascorbic acid is for dough conditioning, not flavour. Can be omitted if the flour is not freshly milled.

Jack

except the "Bio"flour all milled flour is getting some ascorbic acid to mill to fasten eldering process and starting the enzymes.
In your recipe ther is preferment for along 10 hours.
Here in Germany there is a qick souring method named "Berliner Kurzsauer". it takes about 6 hours average.

I Don't know CBP, I've understodd, there isn't any sourdough, there is yeast, chemical add-ons, highspeed mixers with quite short mixing time and dramatically short proving time. If it isn't so, I beg your pardon.
In the described way you will get a rubber eagle, but never a "Pumpernickel" nevermore..

I refer you to the book ISBN 0-8483-913198 "The Chorleywood Bread Process" by Stanley Cauvain and Linda S Young, available via CHIPS. Expensive but you might get it from a library, and full of good stuff.

Its usually used for yeast making conventional sliced loafs, but the process can be adjusted for sourdough and artisanal breads with a large irregular crumb.

The essential element is the high speed mixing. As I understand short time doughs, the floor time is much reduced, but there is still some proof time, depending on the desired texture. For yeast doughs this can be minutes. Many production bakeries use a long preferment with a liquid preferment held in holding tanks, such as the "flour brew" or "water brew" continuous processes. See http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/e ... 20dough%22 for a comparison

Pumpernickel is a different style again, and I believe features long slow baking. The CBP type of process would have no benefit.

[quote]
It was developed by Stan Cauvain and others at the Chorleywood Food Research Association.
[/quote]

IIRC it was his predecessors in the Chorleywood that pioneered in its development , Dr. Chamberlain and company.
Stanley Cauvain just followed his steps but made his own contribution to that particular breadmaking system. IIRC it was his team that discovered that the CBP type breadmaking system can be modified so as to cater to different bread crumb texture requirements.