I am interested in your suggestion of adding water to dried fruit before mixing into the dough. It certainly makes sense with some very dried fruit (eg dried figs or apples or pears), but I wonder whether it is necessary for fruit that are not so dessicated (raisins or sultanas or reasonably 'fresh' dried apricots)?
I have tried this once, but then had the problem of the fruit being too moist, and playing havoc with the dough. Tossing in flour sounds sensible.
I have experimented this weekend with a sourdough raisin bread, with the aim of creating something akin to that addictive raisin toast that can be found in most bakeries (but sourdough!). For a first effort it worked extremely well, though I think I will but it through a couple more iterations before posting the recipe for general perusal.
I added 60% fruit at a late stage of bulk fermentation, folding it in as demonstrated in the video. The fruit didn't end up as evenly distributed as I would like (perhaps have dough thinner and roll tighter next time?). It also has a bit of a tendency to 'escape'. As the dough was stretched during shaping, some of the fruit broke through to the surface, ending up all over the bench and leaving a hole in the dough. That might be fixed by just being more careful in shaping. I wondered whether the soaking/flouring would help the fruit adhere to the dough?
How much water would you add to 300g dried raisins/sultanas (if you think that is a good idea). Would you try to squeeze out excess water in the morning? Would you subtract that water from the water added to the dough?
I am just about to rush out to the shops and buy some baking gear but will get back to you in more detail later. The amount of water depends on how dry the fruit is, but in the past using Angus Park organic sultanas, with a small amount of currants added, I found that 10% of the fruit weight was sufficient. So for .300 you could try .30
You should not need to squeeze out excess, but you can drain excess water out either quickly (not very successful) or over an hour or longer (better results). You can also 'dry' syrface water using a towel.
Will speak more when I get back from the shops.
Graham
Hi Jeremy. Yes, well I think the forum is responsible for tempting me back in. The attention to good technique and resulting quality of breads has amazed me. And it is a good time of year to be baking in Australia and in particular in Queensland. It is much cooler now than it was a month ago.
Dom I will get a small amount of dried fruit today and play with water quantities. In my own bakery I would mix in the 10% and either leave the vessel out overnight or wheel it in to the coolroom for several days. Before I mentioned that some bakers like to let the fruit ferment little. I was referring to the process that evolved in my own bakery and can not say with certainty that other bakers do it. But it is a little bit like how sourdough was discovered, it would surprise me if other bakers had not left out wet fruit for longer than expected and found that a bit of fermentation adds flavour.
The style of lid on the fruit vessel was loose fitting...you and certainly Jeremy might know the style of food grade plastic vessel (a bit lower than waist height) on a round wheeled base. It is the same vessel that most bakeries keep their final stage leavens in. On a small scale it would be easy to reproduce using a loose fitting lid on a jar or similar.
Hi Graham,
I just posted some pics of some levain breads I made this weekend, Walnut raisin and of course a Miche based on Pain quotidiens recipe. The grapes get a treatment kind of overnite an botritis right? Can't wait for your pics and hopefully some formulas!
From Jeremy
[quote]
I just posted some pics of some levain breads I made this weekend, Walnut raisin and of course a Miche based on Pain quotidiens recipe.
[/quote]
Graham ... I'm guessing Jeremy's beautiful loaves are what you call 'bread porn'!
Jeremy, they are beautiful and inspire me to try harder.
I would encourage all the members to keep posting their photos ... as it gives beginners something to strive for, and a good idea of what 'sexy' bread looks like!
[quote="SourYumMum"]
I only blushed a little bit. I'm sure Jeremy has lovely buns.
Botrytis is highly desirable if you like a nice sticky after dinner.
[/quote]
I'm not going to buy into this "Buns"thing.
However on the botrytis subject, a half bottle of DeBortoli "Noble One" does go down well with some nice cheese and fruit.
Adding raisins to the flour and water mixture will only provide fermentable sugars and acidity to the mash which will be good with bakers yeast; but if you are using it for sourdough culture, its of less importance as the critters in the levain are dependent on the maltose and glucose from enzymatic conversion of starches to sugars.
So it?s a bit redundant, besides the sugars in raisins is a combination of glucose and fructose and the latter is the least of choice for the wild yeast in sourdough.
In the ancient times in the grape growing countries,the excess amount of fruits is used as the initial inoculating material for the sourdough starter as the grape skin and raisins contains a lots of friendly microbes, that includes species responsible for wine fermentation, beer fermentation, even bread fermentation . Once the fermentation of the inoculated mash is really active , the natural selection takes place and sugar loving species ultimately die out leaving only the hardy critters that depends on the starch conversion products such as the lactobacteria and compatible wild yeast. In order to attain that robust culture from grape skins and raisins, the refreshing ingredient is gradually reduced of the grape juice, raisin extract allowing time for the required critters to acclimatize and grow until finally the material used for is just water and flour.
It is common to mix in a small amount of water to dried fruits. Let the mix soak overnight or longer. Some bakers will permit the fruit itself to ferment a little before it is used, increasing flavour. You are also able to mix spice and other goodies into the fruit before adding water.
How much water you add depends on the characteristics of the fruit (how dry is it? does it have an additive such as oil?). Try to completely coat the surface area of your dried fruit. You can also have a small amount of liquid remaining at the bottom of the soak vessel. Mix this liquid into the dough at mixing stage.
(It would be interesting to know the range of water:fruit ratios that bakers are working with. Please feel free to comment on the percentage of water to fruit you use at your bakery).
Add your fruit at the end of mixing, or fold it into the mixed dough in several stages like this:
Adding wet fruit is tricky which is why the fruit is often dusted with flour immediately before adding to the dough. A classical way of dough this is to spread the fruit thinly over a bench, turning the fruit several times between throwing clouds of flour over the fruit.
It can be a messy way of doing it and on a large scale is not good for people breathing air in the vicinity. On a small scale it is easy to control, or simply mix in the flour in a bucket. If you are using a bucket, I would suggest a coarser 'meal' style flour which will not absorb the moisture as rapidly and become goo.
Be careful not to over flour your fruit, or you will soak up much of the moisture you added in the soaking.
Teresa are you on Mac or PC? Another user has said that they only hear sound also, and they are on a Mac. We use Mac and PC here. I have experienced the 'sound only' issue but find that the picture shows if I resize the browser window.
I have a Windows XP PC and a Broadband Cable hookup for Internet connection. I tried resizing the movie player window but no results. I will try redownloading quicktime today and see if I can fix it. Thankyou,Teresa
I did have to go and download the newest version of quick time for windows which is available at the link you provided, and it works great! So I guess you need to download the newest version. It was a nice movie,and I downloaded some of the others to watch too. Thanks again,Teresa
Replies
Graham,
I am interested in your suggestion of adding water to dried fruit before mixing into the dough. It certainly makes sense with some very dried fruit (eg dried figs or apples or pears), but I wonder whether it is necessary for fruit that are not so dessicated (raisins or sultanas or reasonably 'fresh' dried apricots)?
I have tried this once, but then had the problem of the fruit being too moist, and playing havoc with the dough. Tossing in flour sounds sensible.
I have experimented this weekend with a sourdough raisin bread, with the aim of creating something akin to that addictive raisin toast that can be found in most bakeries (but sourdough!). For a first effort it worked extremely well, though I think I will but it through a couple more iterations before posting the recipe for general perusal.
I added 60% fruit at a late stage of bulk fermentation, folding it in as demonstrated in the video. The fruit didn't end up as evenly distributed as I would like (perhaps have dough thinner and roll tighter next time?). It also has a bit of a tendency to 'escape'. As the dough was stretched during shaping, some of the fruit broke through to the surface, ending up all over the bench and leaving a hole in the dough. That might be fixed by just being more careful in shaping. I wondered whether the soaking/flouring would help the fruit adhere to the dough?
How much water would you add to 300g dried raisins/sultanas (if you think that is a good idea). Would you try to squeeze out excess water in the morning? Would you subtract that water from the water added to the dough?
cheers
Dom
Hi Dom
I am just about to rush out to the shops and buy some baking gear but will get back to you in more detail later. The amount of water depends on how dry the fruit is, but in the past using Angus Park organic sultanas, with a small amount of currants added, I found that 10% of the fruit weight was sufficient. So for .300 you could try .30
You should not need to squeeze out excess, but you can drain excess water out either quickly (not very successful) or over an hour or longer (better results). You can also 'dry' syrface water using a towel.
Will speak more when I get back from the shops.
Graham
Graham,
I knew the bug would bite, well all be happy to see your results!
Jeremy
Hi Jeremy. Yes, well I think the forum is responsible for tempting me back in. The attention to good technique and resulting quality of breads has amazed me. And it is a good time of year to be baking in Australia and in particular in Queensland. It is much cooler now than it was a month ago.
Dom I will get a small amount of dried fruit today and play with water quantities. In my own bakery I would mix in the 10% and either leave the vessel out overnight or wheel it in to the coolroom for several days. Before I mentioned that some bakers like to let the fruit ferment little. I was referring to the process that evolved in my own bakery and can not say with certainty that other bakers do it. But it is a little bit like how sourdough was discovered, it would surprise me if other bakers had not left out wet fruit for longer than expected and found that a bit of fermentation adds flavour.
The style of lid on the fruit vessel was loose fitting...you and certainly Jeremy might know the style of food grade plastic vessel (a bit lower than waist height) on a round wheeled base. It is the same vessel that most bakeries keep their final stage leavens in. On a small scale it would be easy to reproduce using a loose fitting lid on a jar or similar.
Graham
Hi Graham,
I just posted some pics of some levain breads I made this weekend, Walnut raisin and of course a Miche based on Pain quotidiens recipe. The grapes get a treatment kind of overnite an botritis right? Can't wait for your pics and hopefully some formulas!
Jeremy
From Jeremy
[quote]
I just posted some pics of some levain breads I made this weekend, Walnut raisin and of course a Miche based on Pain quotidiens recipe.
[/quote]
[url]http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/v/user/Jeremy/?g2_page=2[/url]
Wow. They look gorgeous. What kind of flour is on the surface of your loaves (from the bannetons)? Is it perhaps a straight starch flour?
Graham
From Jeremy re lightly soaking and fermenting dried fruit:
[quote]
The grapes get a treatment kind of overnite an botritis right?
[/quote]
I have to admit, Jeremy. I had to look botritis (botrytis) up:
[quote]
1. Any of various fungi of the genus Botrytis responsible for numerous diseases of fruits and vegetables.
2. Noble rot.
[/quote]
The second meaning is what happens exactly!
Graham
Graham ... I'm guessing Jeremy's beautiful loaves are what you call 'bread porn'!
Jeremy, they are beautiful and inspire me to try harder.
I would encourage all the members to keep posting their photos ... as it gives beginners something to strive for, and a good idea of what 'sexy' bread looks like!
[quote]
Jeremy, they are beautiful and inspire me to try harder.
[/quote]
Yep. Jeremy sure is one sexy baker.
SourYumMum, I have quoted you out of context...could not help myself.
Graham
[quote="Graham"]
[quote]Jeremy, they are beautiful and inspire me to try harder.
[/quote]
Yep. Jeremy sure is one sexy baker.
SourYumMum, I have quoted you out of context...could not help myself.
Graham[/quote]
Cute! You guys are having too much fun!
I only blushed a little bit. I'm sure Jeremy has lovely buns.
Botrytis is highly desirable if you like a nice sticky after dinner.
[quote="SourYumMum"]
I only blushed a little bit. I'm sure Jeremy has lovely buns.
Botrytis is highly desirable if you like a nice sticky after dinner.
[/quote]
I'm not going to buy into this "Buns"thing.
However on the botrytis subject, a half bottle of DeBortoli "Noble One" does go down well with some nice cheese and fruit.
Adding raisins to the flour and water mixture will only provide fermentable sugars and acidity to the mash which will be good with bakers yeast; but if you are using it for sourdough culture, its of less importance as the critters in the levain are dependent on the maltose and glucose from enzymatic conversion of starches to sugars.
So it?s a bit redundant, besides the sugars in raisins is a combination of glucose and fructose and the latter is the least of choice for the wild yeast in sourdough.
In the ancient times in the grape growing countries,the excess amount of fruits is used as the initial inoculating material for the sourdough starter as the grape skin and raisins contains a lots of friendly microbes, that includes species responsible for wine fermentation, beer fermentation, even bread fermentation . Once the fermentation of the inoculated mash is really active , the natural selection takes place and sugar loving species ultimately die out leaving only the hardy critters that depends on the starch conversion products such as the lactobacteria and compatible wild yeast. In order to attain that robust culture from grape skins and raisins, the refreshing ingredient is gradually reduced of the grape juice, raisin extract allowing time for the required critters to acclimatize and grow until finally the material used for is just water and flour.
In the case of adding raisins to dough...
It is common to mix in a small amount of water to dried fruits. Let the mix soak overnight or longer. Some bakers will permit the fruit itself to ferment a little before it is used, increasing flavour. You are also able to mix spice and other goodies into the fruit before adding water.
How much water you add depends on the characteristics of the fruit (how dry is it? does it have an additive such as oil?). Try to completely coat the surface area of your dried fruit. You can also have a small amount of liquid remaining at the bottom of the soak vessel. Mix this liquid into the dough at mixing stage.
(It would be interesting to know the range of water:fruit ratios that bakers are working with. Please feel free to comment on the percentage of water to fruit you use at your bakery).
Add your fruit at the end of mixing, or fold it into the mixed dough in several stages like this:
[url]http://www.sourdough.com.au/video/unclebobs/uncle_laminate_23_SL.mov[/url]
Adding wet fruit is tricky which is why the fruit is often dusted with flour immediately before adding to the dough. A classical way of dough this is to spread the fruit thinly over a bench, turning the fruit several times between throwing clouds of flour over the fruit.
It can be a messy way of doing it and on a large scale is not good for people breathing air in the vicinity. On a small scale it is easy to control, or simply mix in the flour in a bucket. If you are using a bucket, I would suggest a coarser 'meal' style flour which will not absorb the moisture as rapidly and become goo.
Be careful not to over flour your fruit, or you will soak up much of the moisture you added in the soaking.
Graham
what movie viewer do you suggest to view the video? I couldn't view it with windows default movie player.Thanks,Teresa
Hi Teresa
This is one of the movies from 'Uncle Bobs' in Brisbane, which is linked from this page:
[url]http://www.sourdough.com.au/video/[/url]
All the movies can be viewed with 'Quicktime Player', which is availble here:
[url]http://www.apple.com/quicktime/win.html[/url]
Let me know if this works for you,
Graham
I guess I need to redownload quicktime, because the movies will not load. I can get the voice but no pic. Thanks
Teresa
Teresa are you on Mac or PC? Another user has said that they only hear sound also, and they are on a Mac. We use Mac and PC here. I have experienced the 'sound only' issue but find that the picture shows if I resize the browser window.
What is the speed of your net connection?
Graham
I have a Windows XP PC and a Broadband Cable hookup for Internet connection. I tried resizing the movie player window but no results. I will try redownloading quicktime today and see if I can fix it. Thankyou,Teresa
I did have to go and download the newest version of quick time for windows which is available at the link you provided, and it works great! So I guess you need to download the newest version. It was a nice movie,and I downloaded some of the others to watch too. Thanks again,Teresa