scenario: You are making a sourdough, and have leftover dough from a yeast based recipe, would you put it in your sourdough to bulk it up?
Has anyone done this? What are your opinions? Sacrilege?
just stirring the pot...... seeing what floats to the top!
Has anyone done this? What are your opinions? Sacrilege?
just stirring the pot...... seeing what floats to the top!
Category:
Replies
Mate…. if you ask me … I have no problem doing that in the bakery as I have done that in the past many times .
But be careful ….there are folks here that can be considered the Osama Bin Ladin of breadbaking…. And will indeed view your practice as blasphemous as you are violating their scriptures…!
Regarding the results of such hybridized dough….indeed they are superb!
They are faster to make and will increase you dough output per workshift, have better volume and texture, excellent appearance, and good taste!
I use this method to improve the taste of my conventional yeast raised breads …..
Has anyone done this? What are your opinions? Sacrilege?
just stirring the pot...... seeing what floats to the top!
[/quote]
G'day Adam,
Definately not!
see [url=http://sourdough.com.au/?q=forum/topic/1093#comment-8473][b]here[/b][/url] and further down that thread for a discussion on this very issue.
There's a big difference!
Chem, the output issue is a non sequitur, sourdough bakeries can schedule thier production to match any straight dough producing bakery over a given time frame provided the initial start up prep time is scheduled properly the day before, the issue is floor space not time. Once the initial first day producing for the schedule is over, it's all straight sailing!
Danub I disagree with you here.
Not all maker of traditional sourdough have such organized schedule in their production system and based on my past experience if a certain bakery is flexible they can indeed increase their output per workshift for such hybridized method is done in lesser time if compared to their old fashioned system (coupled with crude equipment.)
Regarding bread labelling issues I leave that to the bakery operator....
BTW regarding the OP original question if he can blend sourdough with yeast dough well indeed he can and as a baker I know pretty well that it works....
....., have better volume and texture, excellent appearance, and good taste!
I use this method to improve the taste of my conventional yeast raised breads …..
[/quote]I can make sourdough bread with excellent texture, appearance, and flavour! Perhaps, your range and breadth - pardon the pun - [img]http://sourdough.com.au/modules/smileys/packs/example/wink.png[/img] of sourdough bread exposure needs to be broadened.
If you add sourdough to "[sic]........ improve the taste of [your] conventional yeast raised breads..." there's obviously something lacking in your "yeast raised breads"?
Its not the lack or want of it….that bakers do such thing but there is a difference in taste with hydbridized methods and with conventionally made bakers yeast raised bread.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
If you traverse the bakery field from industrial to artisanal and back continuously you became flexible that boundaries no longer exist but all are relative to the needs of the particular baker.
Danub I disagree with you here.
These qualifications you include here are based on your experience of souordough bakeries that have a less than organised schedule etc etc. But that's not what you said in you original post!Not all maker of traditional sourdough have such organized schedule in their production system and based on my past experience if a certain bakery is flexible they can indeed increase their output per workshift for such hybridized method is done in lesser time if compared to their old fashioned system (coupled with crude equipment.)[/quote]
I quote verbatim
[quote=chembake] "...will increase you dough output per workshift,...[/quote]
This statement implies it can never be acheived as fact, careful organisation notwithstanding which is plainly untrue, excepting the initial startup. I stand by my earlier post, the issue is space and captial cost, not time per se!
[quote=chem]BTW regarding the OP original question if he can blend sourdough with yeast dough well indeed he can and as a baker I know pretty well that it works....[/quote]
Until Adam clarifies his question, I'll leave it. However, you'll have to be a bit more specific than "I know pretty well that it works..."BTW nice to see you back.
However, your statement implied your yeast raised bread is inferior unless sourdough is added. Further, you also implied unadulterated sourdough bread is inferior compared to hybridised bread.
Perhaps you didn't intend to make such implications, it needs clarification.
Danub said
"I quote verbatim"
Yes I mean that as that was based on actual experience and often bakers complained that the traditional system is too time consuming so I have to recommend alternatives
"I stand by my earlier post, the issue is space and captial cost, not time per se!"
Do you think that all sourdough bakeries have such ample space just like in the place where you probably come from where your baking equipments are all state of the art?
Think about the small time traditional bakers and try to stay in their place and watch them make their dough in a primitive manner...time is the main issue not the capital not the space....
"Until Adam clarifies his question, I'll leave it. However, you'll have to be a bit more specific than "I know pretty well that it works"
So you implying that you have not done the kind of thing I did as your scriptures forbid you from doing so?
"However, your statement implied your yeast raised bread is inferior unless sourdough is added. Further, you also implied unadulterated sourdough bread is inferior compared to hybridised bread"
I did not mean nor imply that pure sourdough is inferior, as it is a class of its own but it does not mean that hybridized methods is inferior either as it has its own uniqueness.
Meanwhile traditionally made yeast raised bread is good on its own also
What I want to clarify here that we should be more liberal in our thinking with regards to doughmaking.
Danub said
"I quote verbatim"
Yes I mean that as that was based on actual experience and often bakers complained that the traditional system is too time consuming so I have to recommend alternatives
[quote=Danubian]"I stand by my earlier post, the issue is space and captial cost, not time per se!"[/quote]
Do you think that all sourdough bakeries have such ample space just like in the place where you probably come from where your baking equipments are all state of the art?
Think about the small time traditional bakers and try to stay in their place and watch them make their dough in a primitive manner...time is the main issue not the capital not the space....[/quote]
The issue is indeed space and capital cost - which is the same as saying adequate space, equipment, and expertise. Given enough capital, space and expertise, sourdough bakeries can schedule production to match. Regardless of "primitive manner", the issue is whether it can be achieved, not whether it's common, or you've seen such a thing or not. That's an entirely different matter.[quote=Danubian]"Until Adam clarifies his question, I'll leave it. However, you'll have to be a bit more specific than "I know pretty well that it works"[/quote]
[quote=chem]So you implying that you have not done the kind of thing I did as your scriptures forbid you from doing so?[/quote]
No need to cry ideology, it's irrelevant. I never add S cerevisae yeast - in dough form or pure - to sourdough. I have no problem with "hybrid" bread for want of a better term. But your assertions don't wash. You'll need to explain your fuzzy implications that both are improved if hybridised, therefore inferior as pure bread products.[quote=Danubian]"However, your statement implied your yeast raised bread is inferior unless sourdough is added. Further, you also implied unadulterated sourdough bread is inferior compared to hybridised bread"[/quote]
I did not mean nor imply that pure sourdough is inferior, as it is a class of its own but it does not mean that hybridized methods is inferior either as it has its own uniqueness.
Meanwhile traditionally made yeast raised bread is good on its own also
What I want to clarify here that we should be more liberal in our thinking with regards to doughmaking.[/quote]
Yes, hybridisied bread is a category of it's own; but why homogenise? Let them stand on their own merrits, better to have distinctions, no?Perhaps you didn't mean to imply that pure bread of each catergory was inferior, but you did, hence my questions.
I have objections to "industrial" bread, for want of a better word. It's not the scale that I object to but the paradigm that has produced a product with inferior nutrition and poor sensory value.
Adam,yes you have stirred the plot,but you are correct...sacrilege bro....scraps in my mind go to a bin and they are what bakers made "ciabatta" from...all the leftovers.
This discussion means we ARE liberal in our thinking about doughmaking doesnt it?
But the "hybrid" question pervades everything today really
No doubt adding a sourdough to a yeast dough will improve it,because no yeast doughs are ripe anymore.
Theres no problem with this mixing in the conventional bakery world,it couldnt hardly do anything but improve regular bread ,that still made in the "bakery"anyway,and could if properly done,benefit consumers with tastier and more nutritious bread. It would also improve it aesthetically.
As long as all these breads are honestly labelled,and the customer knows what they are getting...i reckon we need to embrace anything that will improve the state of conventional,"regular" bread (non-factory), in Australia.
What i hate is when a bakery claims to make " sourdough", and you taste it and at the very most liberal,its a hybrid...they havent really tried,or dont care, thats not being liberal, its blatantly misrepresenting a product.
I agree, ive seen, made and eaten really great hybrid bread,but i always prefer a genuine skillful sourdough in every sense. I never see yeast addition "improving" a sourdough in any way...it always takes ...the increased volume is at the expense of texture and flavour,and if there is an "improvement" volume is probably what is most claimed...no? The crust is easy to spot...it never has the dynamic that a real sourdough can have. But its not as good to think about either...theres all the weight of authenticity in a genuine sourdough.
There is a two stage mix, and during the rest period, a small amount of poolish dough is added to the sourdough, and put through a final mix.
I would like to change this however.
I believe the customer, and the baker can only benefit by marking the distinction clearly. Whether, sourdough, yeast, or hybrid...I don't like the name "hybrid" but I'll use it since we all know what we're referring to.
I have no problem with freedom and agree people can do as they please with one bread or the other. However, like John, I think a distinction must be made with names, just like cheese or wine.
I take issue with claiming one thing or another that blurs the distinction between these categories; it devalues every type of bread ...it makes bread homogeneous like a bulking food .... a filler, rather than noble in its own right!
Chem, like you I've experiemented with all sorts of mixtures, yeast and sourdough alike, together, separate, etc. so while I agree freedom should prevail I also believe homogenising is counter-productive for the trade and customers.
You and I would be horrified if the store insisted cheddar is cheese like camembert and retorted: "what's the difference?!" Or, if we ordered camembert, but were given a mixture of both camembert and stilton, it would not be what we asked for. It might be very good, but we expect a distinction to be made. These distinctions make the trade richer, it's products are well defined with patrons of specific flavours and desires, not food fillers but food!
As for the dough, no more. With flour at 1.50 a kg it's gold. We put it straight back into the next nights ciabatta and do so for economy. You have to. It doesn't seem to make too much time benefit although if there's too much it does break down quicker. Not a lot of flavour change as there is only 5-10% of flour weight ever added and it's the same ingredients just a little older. Keep the old dough in the fridge 'til you need it. Past a day or two it gets dangerous and messy but we only last a day here.
The dough we use for the sourdough addition, is fresh poolish that was made the night before, and rested over night in the fridge.
I recall when my brother worked in LA the French Bakers would keep odds and ends in a big bucket in the fridge and freezer, didn't ask them what they were doing with it, as I hadn't really gotten the bread bug yet! They made a wonderful loaf called a Campaillou that I still beg the my brothers old boss about sharing the formula, state secrets I suppose?
[quote=JohnD]Meaning what Graham?
[/quote]
Meaning that 'sourdough' indicates a dough containing sourdough, only sourdough
(no added baker's yeast).
I don't remember the exact quantities but vary them as you fancy.
- Old dough is the base
- Raw sugar (the original called for A1 white)
- butter equal to the weight of sugar
- and your own variety of dried fruit & nuts
But there's no reason not to add any other combination of spices etc. you like.Simple but delicious, brilliant for coffee or tea. However, the trick to achieve the sensational mouth feel was to mix the old dough, sugar and butter by hand! until it was a mass of small dough pieces with sugar and butter inbetween. Important that the dough not turn to batter yet but a loosely sloppy dough. Then add the fruit and fold by hand for even distribution. Scale into small well greased or papered tins, allow to prove and bake till golden, slightly firm, on a moderate 190'C. They must be removed from the tin while hot but not moved further until cool. They became so popular we were even making extra dough just to make them each day, we cursed them often! LOL
I am back for a short time!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Just so much work to do with bakery and confectionery technology research and no time to visit this forum often.
Hmmm,This topic is quite stale already but I have not yet provided my reply.
Here are my points
Qoute:
“You'll need to explain your fuzzy implications that both are improved if hybridised, therefore inferior as pure bread products.”
The modification of the pure sourdough by the addition of either little bakers yeast of an old yeast dough would in the eyes of a practical baker improves his product as it tends to speed up the rising time. The resulting taste is just relative to the baker or his customers, whether the product sells or not, but often ( as what I have seen it, it sells!)
I reiterate there is no such thing as inferior bread or what you call homogeneous bread; each of them are unique in their own, it just difficult for you to accept ( as its likely)that as you spent all of your baking life to traditional sourdoughs! You have never experienced working in different bakeries with conflicting methodologies and therefore,less adaptive?
One thing that complicates the equation is that you have pet prejudice against alternative breadbaking system as inferior to your specialty.
Alas!
You have not yet attained the level of wisdom of a matured bakery technologist.
A true bakery technologist does not have a biased mind as he sees all baking systems clinically and in equal terms realizing the merits of each. If it happens that he have passion for one system( then cease to be a good technical person)as its difficult to for him to see alternative systems in equal light as bias will predominate. IMO He is just a bakery craftsman and not a bakery technologist in mind and heart. He may try to use food science to explain his craft but that is about it.He can’t expand his mind to think broader and deeper and see that there is both similarity and uniqueness in each baking methodology.I don’t want to elaborate this point as its hopeless to explain to somebody that have a prejudiced mind.
Sometimes I wonder, have you ever worked in the bakery really long enough or you just worked for an institution focusing only on traditional sourdough baking?
Or you may have started your apprenticeship in a normal bakery but spent your practical breadbaking expereince only in sourdough baking.
It has been my observation with plenty of artisanal bakers that they are incapable of seeing the bread in equal terms and see uniqueness in each system. In comparison industrial bakers who happen to have worked in the artisan line are more open minded and hence more clinical in their perspective, are less prejudiced with a particular breadbaking system.
That is whyI am never impressed with these artisan baker they are the best trained or skilled baker as they are mostly narrowminded entities !Regardless if they won coupe de mond , To me ,there is nothing that have improved in them but their bloated egos comparable to many chefs!
Therefore I have overestimated you as it seems you have less comprehensive experience in breadbaking or much more baking as a whole.
That is the major reason I see that we can’t agree on some terms which I similarly noticed with majority of artisan bakers that have less alternative breadbaking experience.
Qoute:
“Yes, hybridisied bread is a category of it's own; but why homogenise?
I emphasize; hybridize is not homogenize, there should be uniqueness as what I have expereinced.
Qoute
“I have objections to "industrial" bread, for want of a better word. It's not the scale that I object to but the paradigm that has produced a product with inferior nutrition and poor sensory value.
Poor sensory value? I doubt about that, not all people have keen appreciation for one kind of bread, if not why would both the bakers yeast raised and traditional sourdough still exist as a food manufacturing business?
Do you think that many fast food chain would opt for sourdough buns and pan bread instead of the typical product they are used to?Do you think that the majority of younger generation would have the desire for such bread?
If you looked at breadbaking in many countries ( specially developing ones your kind of sourdough is not known) and one time I brought a sample of 100% traditional sourdough loaf from one well known artisan bakery in the west ( more like a batard) to them they don’t like it, and after taking a small bite and chewing it; some of these bakers puked after eating it saying why it taste so horrible and tough, and scornfully asked me if western people have masochistic tendencies to buy such bread that is difficult to eat? My nephews and their classmates hated them and would toss a slice of a real sourdough miche that I bought from an authentic sourdough baker to the garbage bin and would rather ran to the nearby bakery getting soft buns.Therefore the appreciation of bread is relative to the taste of the consumers and not according to the preference of the baker no matter how good are his intention.
Therefore if you are really a true blooded practical baker you make the product that your customer wants and not what you dictate according to your academic ideals.
Qoute
“No doubt adding a sourdough to a yeast dough will improve it,because no yeast doughs are ripe anymore.”
I don’t think so: there are still plenty of such bakers used to making bread with saccharomyces cereviseae.
They know how to process their dough well using longer fermentation and hence resulting in better tasting product than the ones made with short time process.But there are bakers that are fond of adding such dough( real sourdough) to their yeast raised dough. I don’t see a problem with that as long as the business is going well for that particular institution.
Qoute
“You and I would be horrified if the store insisted cheddar is cheese like camembert and retorted: "what's the difference?!" Or, if we ordered camembert, but were given a mixture of both camembert and stilton, it would not be what we asked for. It might be very good, but we expect a distinction to be made. These distinctions make the trade richer, it's products are well defined with patrons of specific flavours and desires, not food fillers but food!
We can’t compare cheese with bakery products ........even ”methaporically” speaking? But there exist some blended cheese in some cheeseshops overseas( not necessarily in Australia).
Qoute
“O.K. Good. So a sourdough is a sourdough is a sourdough.
I still say that sourdough, as based on generic meaning worldwide does not actually specify traditional sourdough but includes also hybrids, and even artificially flavored product.
Its better to have some classification as pure sourdough, hybrid sourdough and artificial sourdough(i.e the one with acidulants and other additives). In this forum the sourdough here means pure ,100% traditionally made product using the most basic ingredients.
I think what the purist crowd needs h ere is a heavy dose of reality; let these people travel to countries much dissimilar to their own and let them do their stuff there and let see if people would applaud such products:
Attention John D, Danubian, Crystal waters fellow....etc.Get real!pack your bags and travel to far flung countries ( including developing nations )and try to get a job there as baker/baking consultant and let see if your pet theories and practices work.
Qoute
“With flour at 1.50 a kg it's gold.”
A really good baker know how to manage h is dough making to ensure that not an ounce of flour is wasted while doing his job. It just a reality that there are very few of that even in Australia. Its so rampant there that bakers would throw excess starters and dough and seldom recycle it.
When I was still working as an artisan baker there some years back, I never throw any excess sour dough and ( even bakers yeast raised dough)but have it recycled by adding a portion of it to the fresh batch. In fact I was at odds with the resident long time baker that was used to doing such wasteful habit. If there is any excess dough I have it frozen or refrigerated.
With refrigerated sourdough, if kept at 4 deg C it can stay for two days and can be used effectively adding some part of it to the fresh dough( with both pure and hybrid sourdough).. With frozen sourdough it can stay there for weeks and I just have to thaw it and add as small portion of it to the fresh dough and it does not detract its baking performance and sensory quality
If supposing the bakery don’t have ample cold storage or freezer space I recommend that he should study his dough movement for a certain period and record it. And from there derive a dough management plan to ensure that each weight of dough ingredients are well accounted for.
The head baker should plan his dough making schedule; how much he makes for the whole week and then estimate based on experience and records the resulting excess dough per work period for a particular day of the week. He should also plan for contingencies supposing there are unexpected orders and how he can cope up with it and its excessses.
If he had an idea about such Then he should have no problem recycling doughs from time to time.
It needs careful planning also to feed the starter and not to throw any excesss which is the customary habit so as to maintain the same weight of the levain. I seldom throw such as things as well but as much as I can I add it t the fresh starter. .
Supposing I have some excess sourdough in cold storage and I know what is my projected dough batch for the next day I control the quantity of levain that i have to prepare for such work period estimating what will be the resulting dough weight for that work shift. That is the levain quantity is greater than if there is no leftover dough in the storage .
I don’t subscribe to the idea of making a new product out of it( adding new ingredients as that is the habit of less competent baker) .
I just feel sorry to know later that the bakery that I used to worked in down under their bakers have returned to their laziness and bad habits
I think its time that the baking school and apprenticeships institution should teach more about dough management and economics in addition to acquiring practical baking skills.
I think that is all for today folks ...hope to visit this forum again some other time!
You miss the point. We are attempting to define a traditional sourdough, a bench mark product. This is not about excluding anything,simply classifying for the sake of clarity. If there is no standard product to compare others to, its just anarchic,like now,with communication difficult because everybody is their own expert, using various terms....this is a friendly forum to explore that theme,and if you think im in it for the ego buzz,well ur pretty deluded. When i started baking sourdough mate i was the only one in Australia doing it for quite some time, and that wasnt exactly easy or an ego buzz at all,it was years of F 15 hour days and hard work...because i love it.
Of course we can compare bread to cheese. Apart from being the classic combination and survival food for many, the same is happening to cheese as is to bread....and to beer and ales and miso and...all traditional foods,which were pure crafts and art,and now are being cheapened and turned into low nutrient copies of their real selves,and consequently,human health is suffering immensely...go to your distant countries and you will find western business interests there busily destroying the traditional foods and networks and convincing people to eat our shitty factory foods....thats why sourdough nearly died out!!!
All real craftsmen are called purists by those who cant do the job as well and have to say something negative. Is there something wrong with the real thing?
Well I guess all that time i spent in India studying music and food,particularly sourdough and fermentation, and Burma and Thailand and Malaysia and China musnt show.Maybe i should show off and tell everybody abt it, particularly sourdough in rural India....now thats actually artisan still,and fiercly strict in rules and practices...they would use the scrap dough somehow, but wouldnt dream of throwing it back in as that would be from their view "polluting".
Now what, chemo is getting real?