I dont understand what you mean by "a dictatorial approach" or "freedom limiting ideology'? i thought this was an exchange of ideas? It seems to me that Cartesian science is both dictatorial and freedom limiting. There is an epistemological problem with it in that being definitive or didactic on the basis of this type of scientific thinking,precludes the observable dynamic of nature. Logic,while useful,is a byproduct of mathematics,which again has trouble reconciling with nature. Nature,and we are talking about aspects of nature in fermantation, does not necessarily follow logic at all. This is well documented and the genesis of quantum thinking....which leads to an integral,not didactic approach. Its also useful to distiguish "freedom" from "license". And it must be remembered that Cartesian science is what enabled white tiles.
Have you made yeast and s/d concurrently in a commercial situation? I did this from 78-70,and the s/d always recovers,and it doesnt always happen but it does happen. Otherwise,how could these French bakers like Kayser and Saibron do it? Its instrumental to look at their methods. they both add yeast at an early stage to their levains,i was really shocked.
It would be useful to do a microbiology on ambient contamination,because as is well known,yeasts become airborne in the zillions.
I would love to be in Sydney talking about this. There has been so little debate in the Industry,and as ive said, lively debate was once a characteristic of the baking industry,with regular forums.
to go into a discussion on the philosophy of science; science is
obviously incomplete and has limitations. Best for another thread.
Your statement: [i]"...and this must include ambient contamination from a primarily yeast-using bakery.[/i]
as an added criteria to define "sourdough" bread is unreasonable if
taken to its conclusion. First, ambient contamination to the extent
that it may or may not exist, could only occur through poor industrial
hygine practices since it can be demonstrated that through proper
husbandry and hygiene Lactobacillus populations do not decline, nor do
Sacc c populations, in sourdoughs ascend, over time in "....primarily
yeast-using baker[ies]".
Secondly, adopting this criteria would effectly render sourdough
production the exclusive domain of a limited and exclusive group of
bakers; namely those who are profitable in the face of a 'sourdough'
limited repertoire [your criteria]. The danger of elitist accusations
notwithstanding it would also limit the available supply to the market
and create artificial prices which may result in the stagnation of
sourdough market share.
Perhaps you and other members of this exclusive group may welcome such
a definition, but I see it as a retrograde step. It may well add to the
bottom line in the near term, and of course, exert control over who can
and can't manufacture "sourdough" but it may well also effectively
remove competition that plays a part in progressive improvement.
I husband my sourdough in "....a primarily yeast-using bakery" with no ill effects to the quality of the sourdough bread produced.
[quote=JohnD]yeh right,but not one with Sacc C in it! lol,be my pleasure mate. [/quote]
What is wrong with Saccharomyces cerevisiae!? Just because it's used to make brewers & baker's yeast doesn't mean it's the enemy of sourdough. As far as I've read from journals, as Danubian said, it is present in sourdough cultures in variable quantities. I'm pretty sure there are strains of S. cerevisiae that have been able to adapt to sourdough conditions. They may not be the majority but they are there! After all, sourdough to me is a dynamic ecosystem of different microbes. It's not an 'organism' per se. One group of critters in the sourdough can metabolize a particular type of substrate and then another group might be able to metabolize the product that the former produces. The overall composition of microbes in it can change with different flours, variation in water activity, temperature, pH etc.
I guess after a while if you feed it the same stuff and keep it under the same conditions the microflora kinda stays pretty constant but if you change one or more conditions, it's likely the overall composition might change a wee bit as well. Much like how our gut floras are more or less constant, but might change a bit if we switch dietary habits.
But I don't think there's a 'fixed' way of changing the composition that would make it possible to do the taxonomy thing. With grapes, you're talking about one organism that exhibit particular characteristics so it's easy to classify them by variety. With sourdough it's a whole bunch of different microorganisms. AND THEN the same types of organisms but different strains. The permutations are endless! Endless, I tell you!!!
It's like if wine didn't come from from grapes but just from grape juice. And you have different grape juices from all over the place that you could try to taste the difference and then blend and ferment. Then you see how it tastes and keep the recipes of which grape juices you used in the particular quantities for the finished products that you like. But you wouldn't know for sure if the grape juice from the same region is the same, or if the grape juice from different regions were different because there is no reference and there wasn't a grape vine with grapes to go study to do the taxonomy for. Just grape juice.
And why make it sound like contamination with S. cerevisiae makes sourdough somehow 'impure', or 'tainted'? It's not a spoilage organism nor a pathogen in any case. It's just different. Equal rights for all bread microbes!
p.s. when I'm done with my courses this year and start my thesis in August I'll try to convince my prof (who's the head of the fermentations sciences dept. in the food microbiology faculty) to let me do some culturing of sourdough bugs on agar and we can see what kinda stuff grows. One idea is to obtain different sourdough cultures and feed them the same thing and see if they become the same thing eventually (although I think that's been done before). Or the same sourdough culture but different flours (grain varieties or from different regions) and see if there are different bugs that grow differently from case to case. Maybe some other possibilities that you guys could think of that would be interesting to explore. I think he might be up for it since I don't think it'll cost all that much to do and he's pretty obssessed with fermented stuff.
Then we can settle this once and for all!!! lol
p.p.s. Even if the taxonomy could be done, I would personally be against it for the reason that bread is a staple food that everyone eats. I'd like to think it's something that's not meant to be luxury-fied (sadly that's how I see Pain Poilane) unlike cheese & wine.
I'm not going to be able to spend much time elaborating my opinions in response to your post; I'll have to get back to you. But suffice to say John's concern is with the contamination by specific strains of S cerevisae which we commonly call "bakers yeast" - a product of industrial manufacture.
However, since you raise that you would welcome ideas for your project work and that you've got access to a lab, Let me offer you a suggestion. How about doing some work isolating the predominant species of Propionic Acid Bacteria in sourdough? I've been interested in this group for a number of years and began to collect cultures of those used in the production of hard Swiss cheeses such as Emmenthaler. Unfortunately I was not able to continue the project due to other considerations. Among those considerations I was not able interest others who had access to labs to assist me to devise ways to test their influence on sourdough. There's very little work done on their role in sourdough, the huge amount of work that has been done has been on manufacturing of chemical compounds which are under patent.
The testing of John's suggestion about ambient contamination of sourdough by bakers yeast could be an interesting piece of work also.
If you wish to talk further about the propionic acid bacteria we can do this via email or PM so this thread isn't hijacked, again, sorry Della.
The old levain was stored in a bag, oozed an acidic hooch, when added to the final dough ingredients, everything looked promising, until I started to proof and it had a mottled appearance that looked like it was shredding! I threw out all the nasty bits and have started a desem sent by Theresa!
[quote=TeckPoh]Hmm....would be a shame if, later, we can't find this animated discussion on sourdough nomenclature because it's embedded in Mould. Much of it can be shifted (if only it's that easy) to John's blog topic titled Sourdough Bread, the Real Thing or a new thread. [/quote]
Would you still be interested in this? to John's blog post, or a new thread?
Poilane would have been be in total agreement with me!
But thanks danubian,thats what i meant,thought it was clear.
Nobodys demonising Sacc C per se. But you must understand that ADDING it to a sourdough bread renders it inauthentic. Preserving authenticity in food culture is vital. Can i make emmental with a cheddar culture? why not mix cheddar culture in with the emmental culture,and throw in some camambert culture for good measure? It is a cultural and culinary question rather than a scientific one.
my quip to danubian abt Sacc c in his beer was a joke.....its called irony, denoted by the "lol".
Poilane would have been be in total agreement with me!
But thanks danubian,thats what i meant,thought it was clear.
Nobodys demonising Sacc C per se. But you must understand that ADDING it to a sourdough bread renders it inauthentic. Preserving authenticity in food culture is vital. Can i make emmental with a cheddar culture? why not mix cheddar culture in with the emmental culture,and throw in some camambert culture for good measure? It is a cultural and culinary question rather than a scientific one.
my quip to danubian abt Sacc c in his beer was a joke.....its called irony, denoted by the "lol".
[/quote] Kind of sounds like one of my last interviewees said, fusion is confusion!
Agree? mmmm,beware,its just an outflanking move lol.
The gold standard of the double bind trial has to be invoked here.Some bread educator should be trialling this? nudge nudge.
My experience is that this contamination does happen. The culture recovers, until it happens again,and so on. But the practice of having to use the same mixer and equipment for both types of bread simultaneously,plus the air...well both myself and my assistant noticed it, and there has to be a possibility for this because as i said,the major French "Artisan bakers" Saibron and Kayser,both add Sacc C early on,as do others...plenty of fakers actually put in in the initiating chef...have you read that awful "Bread Alone" book?....
.....so theres more to it than the simple acidity prevents it orthodoxy......
......otherwise nobody would add Sacc C because it wouldnt proliferate at all???.
Im aware of the role of timing in the addition, but it seems to range from early to late in practice. I also aware that im on about ambient contamination and straight addition,but there is a correspondence.
Im simply trying to unravel a mystery which you may not have,but i have, observed, and the common practice of adding Sacc C evinces this.....the question of Sacc C vs acidity still doesnt make sense to me because of these practical realities.
Ive been speaking to Ed Wood abt this,and he thinks there is not an acidity -tolerant type of Sacc C, and hes unsure of the contamination scenario,although he thinks its definitely possible.
Do you think Kayser et al practice what they are preaching in the books they write? Have you seen the sequel to Bread Alone, Local breads? I had the opportunity to interview Dan Leader on my blog! Seems that hybrid is the standard rather than old school straight sourdough?
Nothing wrong with an outflanking, the more the merrier I believe. I suppose the decleration: "I have no axe to grind, let the chips fall where they may" could be seen as rich coming from a baker versed in the conventional. But I make that decleration in sincerity.
I agree, John, there's more to be tested and discovered, and as much as I'd like to settle the issue, I'm not the man for the job at this point in time.
But first I question the credentials of individuals, great artisans or not, who initiate a sourodugh with the addition of S cerevisae. Artisan principles aside, the practice goes against a reasonable understanding of the microbiological background to the process of sourdough cultivation. I've not read their books, nor the "awful" one you note. Perhaps you can provide their rationale to add clarity to the issue. I'm at a loss for any possible explaination excepting ignorance. But even though I'm tempted to discount them out of hand, the benefit of the doubt is due, since I'm only speculating with no proof of their rationale. Are we able to
ask them or have they both passed on?
Finally, the issue of critical numbers or population threshold is not irrelevant in this debate. That the rogues S cerevisae utilise maltose complicates their ability to flourish futher since the Lactics are almost exclusively on maltose, yet endemic yeasts are not!
If adding foreign organisms below the critical threshold numbers, their survival will be in doubt, it will result in dead yeast bodies to enrich the endemic flora. Yes, correct! Consider this: ROGOSA agar plates provide nutrients for optimal
growth to isolate Lactobacillus but excludes associated flora due to
specific makeup of the medium, namely, the high acetate concentrations.
However, yeast extract is also present in ROGOSA as a nutrient source. So it's clear from this example that yeast bodies provide nutrition, understandable really, since nature does not waste.
You've made me resolve to send you my starter, you can satisfy yourself with trial bakes, or perhaps send it to a lab to isolate bakers yeast if they can, compare the population numbers and strains of S cerevisae to yours. Of course, only if you're willing and have the time to try some tests.
Hi della wella, soz for the hijack, but i think you will always have problems in that climate. Its because Rye is from a cold climate,and to get the correct fermentation parameters for it,it needs to be kept cooler. I even had problems with mould in Byron,never the leaven,but the rye bread moulded quickly.Its quite out of its climatic zone there, and susceptible because of it.
You've got a good point, John. I haven't had experience with keeping sourdough in varying climate locations. I'm not inclined to take my sourdough on holidays, yet! LoL Although I'd be justified in some cases.
Della, I'm curious how its progressing, well, I hope.
sorry to be rude,but Dan Leader would advocate hybrid as he evidently isnt skillful enough to make real sourdough......"old school" is just a way of saying that.
[quote=JohnD]sorry to be rude,but Dan Leader would advocate hybrid as he evidently isnt skillful enough to make real sourdough......"old school" is just a way of saying that. [/quote]
You know I met the guy and have had his bread, one thing we talked about was that people were a bit miffed about some of the mistakes in the book, I agree that most books or information can be a daunting task to absorb for newbies or even old stalwarts like myself! John, once you get a handle on how to download, take a listen to some of the bakers I spoke with, you can get a look or minds set of what bread bakers are doing here!
Cheers all. Just made a wonderful bread, though I had to go back to work while it proofed in the bannetons after being in retarded state (sometimes I am like that too!) They were just popped in the oven, and I virtually ate half of one, great taste, good bread, helped by no other than Northewestsourdoughs best Teresa!
Sorry mate. Dan leader wrote a book called "Bread Alone" which regular people think is rustic etc. It just made me furious,because he advocates making a sourdough starter or chef levain with regular yeast.i just couldnt believe what i was reading,and he is a celebrity baker in USA.His loaves just look like that too.
In calling genuine sourdough making "old school",they excuse themselves for faking it,while claiming to be making it.
Sorry mate. Dan leader wrote a book called "Bread Alone" which regular people think is rustic etc. It just made me furious,because he advocates making a sourdough starter or chef levain with regular yeast.i just couldnt believe what i was reading,and he is a celebrity baker in USA.His loaves just look like that too.
In calling genuine sourdough making "old school",they excuse themselves for faking it,while claiming to be making it.
[/quote]
Lord, your right he did use yeast in his first book "bread alone", for the life of me I hadn't remembered that? I also haven't used that book for years, but I leafed through his new one, Local breads, and it follows the traditional no yeast added, I think if I can recall he talked about how sometimes the book is sort of not in the authors control, more the publishers and editors, I will e-mail him that question though!
If you're referring to hybrid breads, I've tasted exceptionally good hybrid breads. We also made them in baking class as well. The reason we did it in class was to speed up fermentation since we didn't have all day to wait. Please note that the yeast was added into the final dough and not into sourdough, and the amount of yeast was very small...about .1% relative to the flour. It does not distort the taste of the bread at all. If one sells hybrid breads in a bakery (in the U.S. at least), I was told that baker's yeast has to be labeled in the ingredient of the bread...even if it's a very tiny amount.
No not hybrids.These are claimed to be sourdough,and thats the whole problem.
If the bread is honestly labelled as a "semi-sourdough",well and good. French laws used to state that yeast could only be added to the dough stage of pain au levain and only at .1% of the total flour weight. And its good that it has to be on the label,then the consumer knows what they are getting. yeh ive had really good hybrids too.
Its just an excuse to say "it saves time". If we follow that way of thinking,all culinary procedures which depend on time would be irrevocably changed..think about it. And anyway,it doesnt save much time......time is an ingredient in sourdough,your tutor should have prepared a dough in advance so he could show you the real thing, instead of using the "time" excuse.
I cant agree that the taste is the same,with due respect,it just means you werent guided by your tutour to discern the difference. Adding yeasts at that stage reduces the acidity,because the bacteria are reduced because of competition with the yeast for maltose,and introduces new flavours....it stands to reason.Did you actually attempt a comparative organoleptic evaluation based on accepted flavour criteria?
Also,the "very tiny amount" of yeast very quickly becomes a large amount because of the rapid replication of modern strains of bakers yeast....surely youve watched a dough rise that fast.
Its all good as long as its labelled correctly...its for consumers after all,and they have a right to know.
I was and ususally use sourdough , and the last bread I made was so fast in rising I had to kick it back and retard it! There is definitely a different temperment in yeast, it seems to give the dough too much gas and it stales much faster!
My brother used to work for Pascal Rigo in California, he had a loaf called Campaillou, full of rye, wheat and it was so delicious we had to take a loaf home, after a week it aged and was still moist and the flavor developed!
Yes, you are correct that adding baker's yeast to the final dough does reduce the acidity, and you can use that to your advantage. Adding a small amount of yeast (0.1% relative to the total flour weight) can bring out other flavors of the bread. Adding a small amount of yeast can also give the bread a proper volume and character as well.
For the hybrid bread formulas that we did in class, our instructor clearly stated that we do not have to use the small amount of yeast to the final dough. It was only an option. Of course, we had bread formulas that did not have baker's yeast but only sourdough. At the end of each bake session we examined and evaluated the breads we made for the day. We didn't do a comparison test between 2 sourdough breads made from the same formula...one with baker's yeast added and the other without. We did observed the crust color and thickness, evaluated the crumb structure, and noted the taste. We tasted a SF sourdough bread using a small amount of baker's yeast, and the bread had a very strong but a mild sharp sour taste and tang, and the crumb had a nice volume. We tasted a miche using only sourdough that went through a long overnight cool fermention, and it had a very sour taste, the crumb structure was dense, and the crust was thick. We tasted a hybrid multigrain bread that had a mild sour taste, but it allowed the taste of the grains and seeds to infuse through the bread dough, and it had appealing crumb structure as well.
We did other tests as well.... I do recall the instructor showing us the difference if we changed the % of sourdough in the final bread dough using a stiff or liquid sourdough starter, we even experimented doing a 2 stage feeding, and we experimented different fermentation techniques. All of this was to show us what technique exists, and if you do this method, you will get this result. When I bake breads at home, I mostly make sourdough breads (with no yeast), but once in a while I do enjoy the taste of a hybrid bread. By learning we what did in class and from other people, we learned to appreciate different methods, and if we use and respect them correctly, we can produce exceptionally good breads.
Near the beginning of this thread I showed examples of bread made from mould covered sourdough that sat weeks in the fridge, after cycling a few times to refresh. I neglected to post a picture showing the state of the sourdough. Well here's a few examples.
The second picture shows the glossy bacteria & yeast rich sourdough untouched by the mould which grows on the surface.
This is a rye sourdough that has been in refrigeration sitting idle. This will be refreshed is a couple of weeks and used to make bread. I might add the aroma of the mould is similar to the aroma of camembert cheese.
Replies
I dont understand what you mean by "a dictatorial approach" or "freedom limiting ideology'? i thought this was an exchange of ideas? It seems to me that Cartesian science is both dictatorial and freedom limiting. There is an epistemological problem with it in that being definitive or didactic on the basis of this type of scientific thinking,precludes the observable dynamic of nature. Logic,while useful,is a byproduct of mathematics,which again has trouble reconciling with nature. Nature,and we are talking about aspects of nature in fermantation, does not necessarily follow logic at all. This is well documented and the genesis of quantum thinking....which leads to an integral,not didactic approach. Its also useful to distiguish "freedom" from "license". And it must be remembered that Cartesian science is what enabled white tiles.
Have you made yeast and s/d concurrently in a commercial situation? I did this from 78-70,and the s/d always recovers,and it doesnt always happen but it does happen. Otherwise,how could these French bakers like Kayser and Saibron do it? Its instrumental to look at their methods. they both add yeast at an early stage to their levains,i was really shocked.
It would be useful to do a microbiology on ambient contamination,because as is well known,yeasts become airborne in the zillions.
I would love to be in Sydney talking about this. There has been so little debate in the Industry,and as ive said, lively debate was once a characteristic of the baking industry,with regular forums.
Your statement: [i]"...and this must include ambient contamination from a primarily yeast-using bakery.[/i]
as an added criteria to define "sourdough" bread is unreasonable if taken to its conclusion. First, ambient contamination to the extent that it may or may not exist, could only occur through poor industrial hygine practices since it can be demonstrated that through proper husbandry and hygiene Lactobacillus populations do not decline, nor do Sacc c populations, in sourdoughs ascend, over time in "....primarily yeast-using baker[ies]".
Secondly, adopting this criteria would effectly render sourdough production the exclusive domain of a limited and exclusive group of bakers; namely those who are profitable in the face of a 'sourdough' limited repertoire [your criteria]. The danger of elitist accusations notwithstanding it would also limit the available supply to the market and create artificial prices which may result in the stagnation of sourdough market share.
Perhaps you and other members of this exclusive group may welcome such a definition, but I see it as a retrograde step. It may well add to the bottom line in the near term, and of course, exert control over who can and can't manufacture "sourdough" but it may well also effectively remove competition that plays a part in progressive improvement.
I husband my sourdough in "....a primarily yeast-using bakery" with no ill effects to the quality of the sourdough bread produced.
BTW, mate, don't forget when you come up to Sydney you owe me a beer!
[/quote]
Well... that was easily settled!
[quote=JohnD]yeh right,but not one with Sacc C in it! lol,be my pleasure mate.
[/quote]
What is wrong with Saccharomyces cerevisiae!? Just because it's used to make brewers & baker's yeast doesn't mean it's the enemy of sourdough. As far as I've read from journals, as Danubian said, it is present in sourdough cultures in variable quantities. I'm pretty sure there are strains of S. cerevisiae that have been able to adapt to sourdough conditions. They may not be the majority but they are there! After all, sourdough to me is a dynamic ecosystem of different microbes. It's not an 'organism' per se. One group of critters in the sourdough can metabolize a particular type of substrate and then another group might be able to metabolize the product that the former produces. The overall composition of microbes in it can change with different flours, variation in water activity, temperature, pH etc.
I guess after a while if you feed it the same stuff and keep it under the same conditions the microflora kinda stays pretty constant but if you change one or more conditions, it's likely the overall composition might change a wee bit as well. Much like how our gut floras are more or less constant, but might change a bit if we switch dietary habits.
But I don't think there's a 'fixed' way of changing the composition that would make it possible to do the taxonomy thing. With grapes, you're talking about one organism that exhibit particular characteristics so it's easy to classify them by variety. With sourdough it's a whole bunch of different microorganisms. AND THEN the same types of organisms but different strains. The permutations are endless! Endless, I tell you!!!
It's like if wine didn't come from from grapes but just from grape juice. And you have different grape juices from all over the place that you could try to taste the difference and then blend and ferment. Then you see how it tastes and keep the recipes of which grape juices you used in the particular quantities for the finished products that you like. But you wouldn't know for sure if the grape juice from the same region is the same, or if the grape juice from different regions were different because there is no reference and there wasn't a grape vine with grapes to go study to do the taxonomy for. Just grape juice.
And why make it sound like contamination with S. cerevisiae makes sourdough somehow 'impure', or 'tainted'? It's not a spoilage organism nor a pathogen in any case. It's just different. Equal rights for all bread microbes!
p.s. when I'm done with my courses this year and start my thesis in August I'll try to convince my prof (who's the head of the fermentations sciences dept. in the food microbiology faculty) to let me do some culturing of sourdough bugs on agar and we can see what kinda stuff grows. One idea is to obtain different sourdough cultures and feed them the same thing and see if they become the same thing eventually (although I think that's been done before). Or the same sourdough culture but different flours (grain varieties or from different regions) and see if there are different bugs that grow differently from case to case. Maybe some other possibilities that you guys could think of that would be interesting to explore. I think he might be up for it since I don't think it'll cost all that much to do and he's pretty obssessed with fermented stuff.
Then we can settle this once and for all!!! lol
p.p.s. Even if the taxonomy could be done, I would personally be against it for the reason that bread is a staple food that everyone eats. I'd like to think it's something that's not meant to be luxury-fied (sadly that's how I see Pain Poilane) unlike cheese & wine.
*phew*
I'm not going to be able to spend much time elaborating my opinions in response to your post; I'll have to get back to you. But suffice to say John's concern is with the contamination by specific strains of S cerevisae which we commonly call "bakers yeast" - a product of industrial manufacture.
However, since you raise that you would welcome ideas for your project work and that you've got access to a lab, Let me offer you a suggestion. How about doing some work isolating the predominant species of Propionic Acid Bacteria in sourdough? I've been interested in this group for a number of years and began to collect cultures of those used in the production of hard Swiss cheeses such as Emmenthaler. Unfortunately I was not able to continue the project due to other considerations. Among those considerations I was not able interest others who had access to labs to assist me to devise ways to test their influence on sourdough. There's very little work done on their role in sourdough, the huge amount of work that has been done has been on manufacturing of chemical compounds which are under patent.
The testing of John's suggestion about ambient contamination of sourdough by bakers yeast could be an interesting piece of work also.
If you wish to talk further about the propionic acid bacteria we can do this via email or PM so this thread isn't hijacked, again, sorry Della.
Thanks, have you heard it used in the moonshine context before?
I wonder how it came to be used in the sourdough context.
BTW you asked about "acidic sourdough" above, did I understand you correctly or am I way off?
I threw out all the nasty bits and have started a desem sent by Theresa!
Cheers!
Jeremy
[/quote]
Would you still be interested in this? to John's blog post, or a new thread?
Poilane would have been be in total agreement with me!
But thanks danubian,thats what i meant,thought it was clear.
Nobodys demonising Sacc C per se. But you must understand that ADDING it to a sourdough bread renders it inauthentic. Preserving authenticity in food culture is vital. Can i make emmental with a cheddar culture? why not mix cheddar culture in with the emmental culture,and throw in some camambert culture for good measure? It is a cultural and culinary question rather than a scientific one.
my quip to danubian abt Sacc c in his beer was a joke.....its called irony, denoted by the "lol".
Poilane would have been be in total agreement with me!
But thanks danubian,thats what i meant,thought it was clear.
Nobodys demonising Sacc C per se. But you must understand that ADDING it to a sourdough bread renders it inauthentic. Preserving authenticity in food culture is vital. Can i make emmental with a cheddar culture? why not mix cheddar culture in with the emmental culture,and throw in some camambert culture for good measure? It is a cultural and culinary question rather than a scientific one.
my quip to danubian abt Sacc c in his beer was a joke.....its called irony, denoted by the "lol".
[/quote]Kind of sounds like one of my last interviewees said, fusion is confusion!
you another PM.
Agree? mmmm,beware,its just an outflanking move lol.
The gold standard of the double bind trial has to be invoked here.Some bread educator should be trialling this? nudge nudge.
My experience is that this contamination does happen. The culture recovers, until it happens again,and so on. But the practice of having to use the same mixer and equipment for both types of bread simultaneously,plus the air...well both myself and my assistant noticed it, and there has to be a possibility for this because as i said,the major French "Artisan bakers" Saibron and Kayser,both add Sacc C early on,as do others...plenty of fakers actually put in in the initiating chef...have you read that awful "Bread Alone" book?....
.....so theres more to it than the simple acidity prevents it orthodoxy......
......otherwise nobody would add Sacc C because it wouldnt proliferate at all???.
Im aware of the role of timing in the addition, but it seems to range from early to late in practice. I also aware that im on about ambient contamination and straight addition,but there is a correspondence.
Im simply trying to unravel a mystery which you may not have,but i have, observed, and the common practice of adding Sacc C evinces this.....the question of Sacc C vs acidity still doesnt make sense to me because of these practical realities.
Ive been speaking to Ed Wood abt this,and he thinks there is not an acidity -tolerant type of Sacc C, and hes unsure of the contamination scenario,although he thinks its definitely possible.
I agree, John, there's more to be tested and discovered, and as much as I'd like to settle the issue, I'm not the man for the job at this point in time.
But first I question the credentials of individuals, great artisans or not, who initiate a sourodugh with the addition of S cerevisae. Artisan principles aside, the practice goes against a reasonable understanding of the microbiological background to the process of sourdough cultivation. I've not read their books, nor the "awful" one you note. Perhaps you can provide their rationale to add clarity to the issue. I'm at a loss for any possible explaination excepting ignorance. But even though I'm tempted to discount them out of hand, the benefit of the doubt is due, since I'm only speculating with no proof of their rationale. Are we able to ask them or have they both passed on?
Finally, the issue of critical numbers or population threshold is not irrelevant in this debate. That the rogues S cerevisae utilise maltose complicates their ability to flourish futher since the Lactics are almost exclusively on maltose, yet endemic yeasts are not!
If adding foreign organisms below the critical threshold numbers, their survival will be in doubt, it will result in dead yeast bodies to enrich the endemic flora. Yes, correct! Consider this: ROGOSA agar plates provide nutrients for optimal growth to isolate Lactobacillus but excludes associated flora due to specific makeup of the medium, namely, the high acetate concentrations. However, yeast extract is also present in ROGOSA as a nutrient source. So it's clear from this example that yeast bodies provide nutrition, understandable really, since nature does not waste.
You've made me resolve to send you my starter, you can satisfy yourself with trial bakes, or perhaps send it to a lab to isolate bakers yeast if they can, compare the population numbers and strains of S cerevisae to yours. Of course, only if you're willing and have the time to try some tests.
You've got a good point, John. I haven't had experience with keeping sourdough in varying climate locations. I'm not inclined to take my sourdough on holidays, yet! LoL Although I'd be justified in some cases.
Della, I'm curious how its progressing, well, I hope.
[quote=JohnD]sorry to be rude,but Dan Leader would advocate hybrid as he evidently isnt skillful enough to make real sourdough......"old school" is just a way of saying that.
[/quote]
Rude? ....etc?
I'm not sure I follow entirely.
John, once you get a handle on how to download, take a listen to some of the bakers I spoke with, you can get a look or minds set of what bread bakers are doing here!
Cheers all.
Just made a wonderful bread, though I had to go back to work while it proofed in the bannetons after being in retarded state (sometimes I am like that too!) They were just popped in the oven, and I virtually ate half of one, great taste, good bread, helped by no other than Northewestsourdoughs best Teresa!
Sorry mate. Dan leader wrote a book called "Bread Alone" which regular people think is rustic etc. It just made me furious,because he advocates making a sourdough starter or chef levain with regular yeast.i just couldnt believe what i was reading,and he is a celebrity baker in USA.His loaves just look like that too.
In calling genuine sourdough making "old school",they excuse themselves for faking it,while claiming to be making it.
In that case my assumption of ignorance was probably correct.
Sorry mate. Dan leader wrote a book called "Bread Alone" which regular people think is rustic etc. It just made me furious,because he advocates making a sourdough starter or chef levain with regular yeast.i just couldnt believe what i was reading,and he is a celebrity baker in USA.His loaves just look like that too.
In calling genuine sourdough making "old school",they excuse themselves for faking it,while claiming to be making it.
[/quote]Lord, your right he did use yeast in his first book "bread alone", for the life of me I hadn't remembered that? I also haven't used that book for years, but I leafed through his new one, Local breads, and it follows the traditional no yeast added, I think if I can recall he talked about how sometimes the book is sort of not in the authors control, more the publishers and editors, I will e-mail him that question though!
Jeremy
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Sorry, I should of been more clear, yeast in the build for a levain, he added a pinch in the starter innoculation!
Thats it Tekky.
Yep Jeremy,which just makes yeast bread heh..i was really pissed off w that book.
No not hybrids.These are claimed to be sourdough,and thats the whole problem.
If the bread is honestly labelled as a "semi-sourdough",well and good. French laws used to state that yeast could only be added to the dough stage of pain au levain and only at .1% of the total flour weight. And its good that it has to be on the label,then the consumer knows what they are getting. yeh ive had really good hybrids too.
Its just an excuse to say "it saves time". If we follow that way of thinking,all culinary procedures which depend on time would be irrevocably changed..think about it. And anyway,it doesnt save much time......time is an ingredient in sourdough,your tutor should have prepared a dough in advance so he could show you the real thing, instead of using the "time" excuse.
I cant agree that the taste is the same,with due respect,it just means you werent guided by your tutour to discern the difference. Adding yeasts at that stage reduces the acidity,because the bacteria are reduced because of competition with the yeast for maltose,and introduces new flavours....it stands to reason.Did you actually attempt a comparative organoleptic evaluation based on accepted flavour criteria?
Also,the "very tiny amount" of yeast very quickly becomes a large amount because of the rapid replication of modern strains of bakers yeast....surely youve watched a dough rise that fast.
Its all good as long as its labelled correctly...its for consumers after all,and they have a right to know.
I was and ususally use sourdough , and the last bread I made was so fast in rising I had to kick it back and retard it! There is definitely a different temperment in yeast, it seems to give the dough too much gas and it stales much faster!
My brother used to work for Pascal Rigo in California, he had a loaf called Campaillou, full of rye, wheat and it was so delicious we had to take a loaf home, after a week it aged and was still moist and the flavor developed!
Cheers!
For the hybrid bread formulas that we did in class, our instructor clearly stated that we do not have to use the small amount of yeast to the final dough. It was only an option. Of course, we had bread formulas that did not have baker's yeast but only sourdough. At the end of each bake session we examined and evaluated the breads we made for the day. We didn't do a comparison test between 2 sourdough breads made from the same formula...one with baker's yeast added and the other without. We did observed the crust color and thickness, evaluated the crumb structure, and noted the taste. We tasted a SF sourdough bread using a small amount of baker's yeast, and the bread had a very strong but a mild sharp sour taste and tang, and the crumb had a nice volume. We tasted a miche using only sourdough that went through a long overnight cool fermention, and it had a very sour taste, the crumb structure was dense, and the crust was thick. We tasted a hybrid multigrain bread that had a mild sour taste, but it allowed the taste of the grains and seeds to infuse through the bread dough, and it had appealing crumb structure as well.
We did other tests as well.... I do recall the instructor showing us the difference if we changed the % of sourdough in the final bread dough using a stiff or liquid sourdough starter, we even experimented doing a 2 stage feeding, and we experimented different fermentation techniques. All of this was to show us what technique exists, and if you do this method, you will get this result. When I bake breads at home, I mostly make sourdough breads (with no yeast), but once in a while I do enjoy the taste of a hybrid bread. By learning we what did in class and from other people, we learned to appreciate different methods, and if we use and respect them correctly, we can produce exceptionally good breads.
[IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_6577.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_6579.jpg[/IMG]
The second picture shows the glossy bacteria & yeast rich sourdough untouched by the mould which grows on the surface.
This is a rye sourdough that has been in refrigeration sitting idle. This will be refreshed is a couple of weeks and used to make bread. I might add the aroma of the mould is similar to the aroma of camembert cheese.
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