If I may, where does the application of refrigeration to a dough fit into this paradigm? Refrigerating a sourdough is a newer tradition but seems to be an acceptable one. I've been thinking lately that alot of sourdoughs are starting to have a homogeneous taste without the subtle nuances of LAB and wild yeasts, in part because of these extended fermentations using coolers. Although these breads can be and are delicious, is the microflora of a dough not altered by the artificial application of cold? Although I lack the scientific backround to explain this observation, it seems me that the new tradition of refrigeration is flatening out the huge flavour pontential of a dough's unique microflora and creating a predictable flavour profile that we then call sourdough. Is this artisanal?
Tony
Tony
Category:
Replies
I'm no arbiter in any matters, I just express my opinion. The question of refrigeration of sourdough, I assume you're referring to the practice of refrigerating during the final proof? Or are you referring to refrigeration per se?
I suppose it's not beyond the pale to suggest that the style bread this practice may or may not aim to come close to is the Californian and Alaskan sourdough. It's typified by the blistered crust and acidic but aromatic flavour. In it's hayday in the places of its origin - gold rush of the 1848 and 1896 California and Alaska respectively - cool dough conditions prevailed. Refrigeration is common practice now in those places as form of quality control to achieve consistency and to some extent also used for industrial scale production.
Many in the baking industry are not exactly sure why specific sourdough methods are employed, they have heard, or it has been recomended one thing over another and so it's passed on and a myth develops around certain practices. But to assist to clear a little of the fog, I post below.
There are two main groups of Lactobacillus which are classified according to the by-products they produce;
Homofermenatative (from the Greek word 'homo' meaning ~ 'same' or 'equal')
This list includes but not limited to;
Heterofermentative (from the Greek word 'hetero' meaning ~ 'different' or 'unequal')
This list includes but not limited to;
- L brevis
- L brevis ssp. (lindneri I)
- L brevis ssp. (lindneri II)
- L buchneri
- L fermentum
- L fructivorans
- L pastorianus
Each group is not only specific in the by-products they produce within a limited range but they have a preference for prevailing conditions and temperature ranges. Warmer and higher absorption (slcker dough) conditions favour the homofermentative group.Cooler, and lower absorption (firm dough) conditions favour the heterofermentative group.
By-products produced by the heretos include, but not limited to;
- lactic acid
- Acetic acid
- CO2
However, in contrast the homos produce only one significant by-product;- lactic acid
As you might imagine the predomminance of one group can influence the flavour, character, and aroma of the bread produced from a sourdough that has been subject to varying temperature ranges and water content.I neglected to mention that there's seems to be a prevailing stereotype in the non baking public mind that sourdough must be acidic and have an extremely blistered crust. Perhaps, they associate sourdough with San Fran, and any bread without excesses of these qualities is less than sourdough. In my view that's a crude way to view and classify the fantastic variety of sourdough bread from all the nether parts of the baking world.
I may be wrong but I speculate, that bakeries moulded as they are by their patrons try to accentuate those characteristics they think the public want, an extremely blistered crust, with a powerfully acidic flavour. But accentuating these things means compromise in others, a smaller volume and denser crumb. Better yet, make the same, with a larger volume, an overly aerated crumb, and you may have a better appeal to a broader market and sourdough eaters alike.
Like all things food is subject to fad peaks and troughs. Sourdough is no different.
"Homo and hetero"?! I should have been a tabloid writer......[img]http://sourdough.com.au/modules/smileys/packs/example/evil.png[/img]
This method has worked well for us. I believe that we do it because the sourdoughs can sit up to 16 hours before we come back to work to bake them off. So refrigerating prevents any possibility of the bread over proofing while we are away.
Not one bit of interesting science here just a human story!
Not one bit of interesting science here just a human story!
[/quote]
Yeah, but science should be a subservient servant to enrich the life of humanity.
It's tough work, baking!
Not one bit of interesting science here just a human story!
[/quote]
Yeah, but science should be a subservient servant to enrich the life of humanity.
It's tough work, baking!
[/quote]
Tell me about it, I am making a couple loaves today!
I was just contemplating how many different ways bakers make bread, mind you it's adding water to flour and some salt, fermentation and whatever else you put in well that is part of the mix, no pun intended! Then there are the multitude of mixing methods, machine, hand or a combination,even no-knead now! Then folding and knocking back the dough, many different ideas there too! Proofing times, is there ever agreement on how long or what? shaping, well there is a whole range of ways, good and bad!
Then the final proof, what is the true way of knowing? Finger in the dough? Feel of the dough, what is the best way?
Slashing or scoring, is it a design aesthetic or is it a strange signature?
Finally the bake, how dark, how hot and how much steam?
Finally wait to cool bread or eat it hot!
Questions how do you answer them, ramblings of a man who eats his own bread!
Oh yeah do you taste the levain?
I agree with you Tony, i have noticed the homogenous flavour as you say. I never use refrigeration for any aspect of my bread making or leaven generation, Bread only has a certain dynamic when it reflects the season...in summer the loaves are racing and its work to get a wood oven hot and then mellowed before the loaves are ready. Reduced ratios of leaven help, but in the weather we are having atm,35-40 for weeks, the doughs just get this momentum which results in a thorough fermentation, well risen (over) and lots of good complex flavour.
Controlled atmosphere bakeries and retarder provers,no doubt serve a useful purpose, but definitely produce identifiable bread. Its the safe sourdough,and nothing wrong with that as long as its genuine and well made, but its boring...,and as danubians fantastic work shows, often acetic....which good sourdough shouldnt be. Its not skillful........but then according to the retarder-prover pilots, im old school. lol.
Thats where farmers markets are good because you may get an idiosyncratic sourdough made with raw skill.
(New interview questions!)
1. Original question. Does introducing ascorbic acid, a non-natural (er...sounds better than un-natural) ingredient forfeit a bread's right to being called sourdough?
2. Is the (popular) method of retarding dough in refrigeration make it any less artisanal?
I think the 2nd issue is more of a flavour issue as opposed to name 'rights', perhaps deserving a thread of its own?
but it makes searching more difficult in the future. I'd prefer the 2nd issue to be under a heading with Retarding/Refrigeration as one of the keywords.
Cheers
TP
How's your Sunday? Things are a bit tense here with our country in shell-shock over our General Election results. How's that for de-railing?
Cheers,
hope your all ok in Malay!
Tony
[quote=Jeremy]Why has retarding bread become so popular then, ............[/quote]
I believe my earlier post made reference to this, here I quote:
[quote=Danubian]"...........seems to be a prevailing stereotype in the non baking public mind that sourdough must be acidic and have an extremely blistered crust. Perhaps, they associate sourdough with San Fran, and any bread without excesses of these qualities is less than sourdough.
"I may be wrong but I speculate, that bakeries moulded as they are by their patrons try to accentuate those characteristics they think the public want, an extremely blistered crust, with a powerfully acidic flavour. But accentuating these things means compromise in others, a smaller volume and denser crumb. Better yet, make the same, with a larger volume, an overly aerated crumb, and you may have a better appeal to a broader market and sourdough eaters alike.[/quote]
My "better yet ......." was an attempt at veiled sarcasm.
While I said;....... [i]"In my view that's a crude way to view and classify the fantastic variety of sourdough bread from all the nether parts of the baking world."[/i]
And, I echo, John's statement on seasonal variations, I'm not convinced the refrigerated method for retardation would qualify as a "technological additive". Ascorbic would qualify as just that, but refrigeration is but temperature control. Like ovens, or provers, or using water temperature variations in dough water. I'll be surprised to find any suggestion that dough mixers, dividers, scales, etc. be included in "technological additive"!
Don't missunderstand, I'm all for the full gamit of artisan baking with creativity and discovery, after all, even sourdough was discovered and manipulated to yield what we know as bread.
[settling back into my seat again]
Maybe it's not a technological additive (I'm prone to hyperbole) but retarding a sourdough is superfluous to baking. We can't bake without heat but we can bake without refrigeration/retardation, mixers, etc. The goal of retarding a dough is to get a particular outcome. Much like VC. Why is salt ok? My only point is this: What are the principles on which we include and exclude certain things we do when we bake sourdough? Common sense, science, tradition, bias, marketing potential, sales? I've been reading the many entries on this site for a couple of years and it seems to me that there is an attempt to define once and for all that which we do. It's a great excercise but where do you draw the line.
Cheers,
Tony
The line is where the baker chooses to draw it, based on their understanding of the baking craft and the needs (wellbeing?) of their customers (community?).
We have tried not to be prescriptive about what bakers do, only about how they describe their process and their creations. The bottom line is that bakers can add whatever they want and use any process including mixing and baking their dough at the local laundromat. There are some wonderful fragrances available in modern wash powders.
The line is where the baker chooses to draw it, based on their understanding of the baking craft and the needs (wellbeing?) of their customers (community?).
We have tried not to be prescriptive about what bakers do, only about how they describe their process and their creations. The bottom line is that bakers can add whatever they want and use any process including mixing and baking their dough at the local laundromat. There are some wonderful fragrances available in modern wash powders.
[/quote]
Well...for us, first baby step is to have great (unreal!!!) breads in the market. Understanding what the community wants is capitalised upon (read white mush), but being educated about what is 'good' for the general health and filling that gap and making it accessible (price-wise) and acceptable (taste-wise) is a lot to do. Since there's a wave of change in our political scene, there's hope yet for breads? Now, how did I link that together??
Sorry...the above isn't relevant to the thread. Just felt like venting a bit. That's the great thing about this forum. Thinking aloud, thinking's allowed.
[/quote]
Jeremy we use 'Fragrant Free' and 'Low Irritant' powders. I have tried the organic liquids but found them to be far too acetic for my liking. Much more suited to the San Fran crowd.
Well...for us, first baby step is to have great (unreal!!!) breads in the market. Understanding what the community wants is capitalised upon (read white mush), but being educated about what is 'good' for the general health and filling that gap and making it accessible (price-wise) and acceptable (taste-wise) is a lot to do. Since there's a wave of change in our political scene, there's hope yet for breads? Now, how did I link that together??
Sorry...the above isn't relevant to the thread. Just felt like venting a bit. That's the great thing about this forum. Thinking aloud, thinking's allowed.
[/quote]
Think away TP. It is all relevant. I forget how lucky we are (even in sunny/humid queensland) to already have a ready-made market for sourdough bread. Yes, waves usually come in sets and perhaps a healthier bread could be a ripple that turns into a big one (hopefully not a dumper!)
[quote=Panevino]Hey Boris,
Maybe it's not a technological additive (I'm prone to hyperbole) but retarding a sourdough is superfluous to baking. We can't bake without heat but we can bake without refrigeration/retardation, mixers, etc. The goal of retarding a dough is to get a particular outcome. Much like VC. Why is salt ok? My only point is this: What are the principles on which we include and exclude certain things we do when we bake sourdough? Common sense, science, tradition, bias, marketing potential, sales? I've been reading the many entries on this site for a couple of years and it seems to me that there is an attempt to define once and for all that which we do. It's a great excercise but where do you draw the line.
[/quote]
Tony, I don't know where to draw the line, except to say ascorbic is not in the same class as refrigeration, mixers, etc. Granted, refrigeration is superflous but the difference is surely self evident? Ascorbic is added as an ingredient in micro amounts which is testament to its astringency. Cool climates in temperate regions prior to refrigeration contirbuted to ascendency of specific sourdough flora which yielded bread with particular characteristics that developed a reputation. If some wish to reproduce this phenomenon at any time of the year in any city, so be it, I say!
There may never be a "once and for all" definition unless an agreement can be reached voluntarily. But you're correct, it's an interesting if not informing exercise.
[/quote]
Jeremy our powder is 100% additive. We no longer use flour as a base to calculate %, instead we calculate off the washing powder.
I think there is a clear line...its ingredients.The best sourdough is made from organic flour....well or not, i think organic flour apart from being desireable from an environmental perspective, is compatible with the sourdough paradigm as sourdough is to the organic paradigm....no monocultures in growing storing or processing.
And there are only two other ingredients...water and sea salt, the latter ,added at the dough stage,because of its more natural mineral content also being compatible paradigmatically. That salt is acceptable in bread is a technical,historical and digestive/culinary agreed reality.Its not worth questioning.There can not be the addition af ANY other ingredients.( obviously this excludes the use of Saccharomyces Cerevisiae the tiny amount endemic being within a calculable amount microbiologically...and excludes vitamin C whether from daikon radish or a factory.)
Manipulation of technique is the bakers art, and for this class of bread,it can have any shape or form and be manipulated by technique such as refrigeration. Its not relevant really,compared to ingredients. Bysticking to ingredients it frees such a classification from being rigid and encourages artisanal craft.
And i think its reasonable to define it by ingredients...its cut and dried,and why not?
But this is just a recommendation for a class of bread which is a premium. There are numerous variations which have their own class. A clear definition of the premium class enables a clearer picture of the rest of the sourdough industry...it is defined by a benchmark product, as are all artisanal enterprises. And thats the sole reason really,rather than for any control or discrimination...every baker should do their own thing,but with the reference point of an ideal product.
But the big picture is that this is only a small event between serious bakers trying to establish the benchmarks of what is a rapidly expanding and actually revolutionary trade...which could easily, and is, going the way of everything else of worth. Bakers will inevitably ignore it as there are no regulations governing the situation,and neither will there be....but at least we can store the original seed.
[quote=Graham][quote=Jeremy]Are you letting that powder sit in the fridge or did you check for additives? Tony don't hate me, were (Graham and I are just wankin and weightlifting) bit of the wine residue in my cup too!
[/quote]
Jeremy our powder is 100% additive. We no longer use flour as a base to calculate %, instead we calculate off the washing powder.
[/quote]
Guys...im a little concerned at the amount of powders you guys are doing!
[quote=Graham][quote=Jeremy]Are you letting that powder sit in the fridge or did you check for additives? Tony don't hate me, were (Graham and I are just wankin and weightlifting) bit of the wine residue in my cup too!
[/quote]
Jeremy our powder is 100% additive. We no longer use flour as a base to calculate %, instead we calculate off the washing powder.
[/quote]
Guys...im a little concerned at the amount of powders you guys are doing!
[/quote]John,
Looks like Graham has some washing powder around the nose, I am more discreet about how much I take in!
Back to the topic people! - for the record my only vice is fermented.
Refrigeration does not always produce overly acid tones in sourdough.
For instance Sonoma Baking Co. (Sydney, Australia) retard their loaves between the morning shape and the evening bake....and yet Sonoma's bread is very neutral as far as sourdough goes.
It is interesting because Andrew (baker/owner Sonoma) trained in San Francisco and is obviously influenced by the San Fran method, as he uses a 'chef' (also called a 'mother'...a piece of the previous days mixed dough minus the salt). This is different to the perpetually fermenting (and fed) leaven that most bakers in Australia use.
My understanding is that the really sour San Francisco loaves are left in the fridge for much longer (and cooler) than half a day....usually 24 to 48 hours(?). And recently I met a German trained baker in Sydney who says that he leaves his shaped dough pieces for 6 weeks at 2 deg Celcius! I assume that in this case they are already proven or semi-proven before they go into the fridge...but not certain.
The above demonstrates that there is indeed an art in retardation. Naturally cold environments such as cellars or a room on the cold side/level of the building provide a greater number of variables and a greater complexity of process (bakers sometimes enjoy these little challenges?).
Unrefrigerated cold rooms may vary in temperature seasonally....even daily...but in my opinion the higher degree of variation can equal more exciting outcomes in the right hands. However bakers who are not prepared (or experienced enough) to play with fluctuating temperatures can suffer erratic baking schedules (reduced morale?) as well as quality and wastage issues.
Someone has probably already mentioned the power consumption / environmental consequences of refrigeration. I guess that needs to be weighed against improved working hours and the potential to reduce wastage by creating repeatable retarding environments.
The smaller holistic bakeries seem to get away without refrigeration and still live a decent lifestyle...which of course is one of the features that make them holistic!
Hi Graham,
I believe you're quite correct; refrigeration will not automatically produce an acidic bread as there are other factors at play. Incidently, as I recall we talked about this recently as you know I occasionally enjoy eating Sonoma bread.
As well as cool fermentations and varying dough absorption rates there are other variables at play. But by and large these are the most influencial factors favouring heteros, and of this group there's variation from species to species as well as subspecies. Of course, the species demographic of sourdough flora are influenced over time at certain repeated parameters. For instance if your sourdough is made with high or low absorption, with peculiar storage temps, and fluctuating times between cycles, flour type will also play a part, it will eventually translate into stable populations of those bacteira that flourish in those quirky conditions. But the results in bread dough are not entirely predictable as even more factors come into play. Don't get me wrong a sound repeatable result can and will be achieved if you follow a specific repeatable routine of the most influential parameters.
However, that's another of the beauties of sourdough; it's truely original every time its made where ever it's made.
Its not overly acid tones that were mentioned as more characteristic of refrigerated dough, its the actual tone itself...which tends to be more acetic than the tone of unrefrigerated process,which is characterised more by organic acid tones...the acetic can have varying intensity,depending on skill or degree/time of refrigeration. It was so apparent in all of the artisan sourdoughs i judged in Melbourne last year.
Making a dough for use tomorrow is more common than you think Graham...Jesse does it,and we did it at Natural Tucker for certain processes, as well as our straight leaven process and i still do it for a tin bread process,as its more convenient than making a large quantity of leaven.I dont think theres anything S/F about it either, as its the major difference between the premier artisans in Paris, Saibron uses dough and Kayser uses liquid leaven.
That's interesting John. I did see cutting a piece of 'mother' from a dough intended to make bread (prior to salt being mixed in) as a 'philosophy' in sourdough leavening...peculiar to particular bakers. But that was a bit narrow of me! As you have pointed out...some bakers are comfortable with a range of leavening methods. Thanks John. GP.
Its not overly acid tones that were mentioned as more characteristic of refrigerated dough, its the actual tone itself...which tends to be more acetic than the tone of unrefrigerated process,[/quote]
Yes, you've provided a more accurate description with "tone".
[quote=JohnD].....which is characterised more by organic acid tones...the acetic can have varying intensity,depending on skill or degree/time of refrigeration. It was so apparent in all of the artisan sourdoughs i judged in Melbourne last year.[/quote]
Yep, pH (acid intensity) and TA (titratable acidity, acid volume) are objective measures but the combinations of acids, even small amounts all have a bearing.
[quote=JohnD]Making a dough for use tomorrow is more common than you think Graham...Jesse does it,and we did it at Natural Tucker for certain processes, as well as our straight leaven process and i still do it for a tin bread process,as its more convenient than making a large quantity of leaven.I dont think theres anything S/F about it either, as its the major difference between the premier artisans in Paris, Saibron uses dough and Kayser uses liquid leaven.[/quote]
I sometimes us refrigeration of wheat doughs for convienience but also experiementing to become familiar with techniques and results.
I'm not familiar with Saibron and Kayser but I'm sure there's a difference in aroma and flavour of their bread on the basis of the variables each employ.
Seeing you mentioned the term Graham,I have to put in my 2bobs worth, as it really annoys me.
"Mother"
This term does not appear in any classical or modern bread making. It appears to be more used by those who have come to the craft, and have hijacked it to apply to sourdough because they just thought it was right. It is a term used largely in culinary history to describe the source of vinegar, and more recently kombucha.
Gramatically it is inconsistent with the French "levain" as this is a male noun...le levain. The term "mother" is clearly not of the same gender.
It is one of those terms which really needs to get lost as it confuses the already confusing terms used to describe the sourdough process.
This bread company in Msia says they ferment their bread for 5 days. Could it be in refrigeration? But 5 days? Won't the bread turn out too sour, develop too thick a skin (unless wrapped in clingfilm)?
on their website but it's probably in a retarder (refrigerated environment) which I'm sure has relative humidity (RH) control. But I wouldn't discount the sourdough fermentation included such a time frame also.
Baking companies, like others are sometimes prone to hype up or spell out unusual products and processes to create a point of difference in the market. But I can't be sure in the case you've pointed to without further investigation.
Yes, like they say their breads are handcrafted, I wonder to what extent, when their market is so extensive.
"Mother"
Gramatically it is inconsistent with the French "levain" as this is a male noun...le levain. The term "mother" is clearly not of the same gender.
It is one of those terms which really needs to get lost as it confuses the already confusing terms used to describe the sourdough process.
[/quote]
"Father" somehow does not sound appropriate...maybe a prejudice of mine.
John I agree that English speakers use many terms to describe the same baking process and it gets confusing. But plenty of people are familiar with the term 'Mother' and if that is how they came to understand the process of sourdough then I am happy to adapt to their terminology.
I respect the old ways but do not believe in old ways dominating new ways that make sense to...whoever. Even the term 'sourdough' is relatively new and probably faced opposition when it was introduced.
With respect! GP
This bread company in Msia says they ferment their bread for 5 days. Could it be in refrigeration? But 5 days? Won't the bread turn out too sour, develop too thick a skin (unless wrapped in clingfilm)?
[/quote]
Wow TP. What a fascinating web site.
Quote from site: "Remember: Chewing releases the taste"
I take it that the average sweet-yeast-steamed bread takes 3 chews, and traditional European style breads take 10 or so? Incredible that a baker would feel the need to ask their customers to chew! But I am certain there are parallels with Malaysian cooks having to ask European customers to adapt to their methods of interpreting food.
Related somehow...a very friendly Taiwanese customer of ABA has just provided his blog to us: http://blog.udn.com/yw293
"Ted" says I can post in English, but I have not tried yet. GP
Wow TP. What a fascinating web site.
Quote from site: "Remember: Chewing releases the taste"
I take it that the average sweet-yeast-steamed bread takes 3 chews, and traditional European style breads take 10 or so? Incredible that a baker would feel the need to ask their customers to chew! But I am certain there are parallels with Malaysian cooks having to ask European customers to adapt to their methods of interpreting food.
[/quote]
An average SYSB would take 3 chews, then glue up your mouth, which then requires water to wash all that down. So...not much 'enzymes' produced there. A good reminder if I must say.
Malaysian food throws a lot of rules out of the window.
[quote=Graham]
Related somehow...a very friendly Taiwanese customer of ABA has just provided his blog to us: http://blog.udn.com/yw293
"Ted" says I can post in English, but I have not tried yet. GP
[/quote]
Ted! If you're reading this, TRY! Don't worry. If you notice, nobody cares what version of english one speaks here. We would love to hear more about your breads (I peeked).
My last post was not clear. i did not mean that Ted wanted to post on our forum in English. I meant that he wanted me to post on his blog in English (because I do not know Taiwanese).
Sorry for the confusion! You have such a good heart and were so encouraging for Ted to post! We love you TP!
Anyway, I have emailed Ted and asked him to post in this topic. I hope he does! Graham
http://member.udn.com/member/ShowMember
(click the left button to get the sign up page)
Graham
Exactly, and thats why "mother" is inappropriate,because its masculine "father" is inapplicable.
To elaborate, the symbolic understanding was that the liquid levain is semen, the dough is seeded, and the product is phallically introduced to the receptive (female) oven..."shes got a bun in the oven". So within this symbolic and eternal,really (its lasted 5000 years so far), understanding, "mother" doesnt fit.
People are free to use what terms they like,but within the context of language grammar and communication, there is actually meaning.
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