Knead Help

beresford

Just had my fifth attempt and still producing flat objects like large Jiffy bags. The taste is OK but the appearance is embarrassing. When I debouche the dough from the banneton to the baking sheet it flops and spreads out.

 

The recipe had evolved at the last attempt to:

 

Pancake:

Starter (16g rye plus 34g strong white flour plus 50ml water at last feed)

300 ml warm water

60g rye flour

240g strong white flour

 

Leave pancake overnight until bubbling.

 

Add:

60g rye flour

240g strong white flour

rape seed oil

salt

 

Mix and tip onto work surface. Gradually add white flour until workable, then use 'push and fold' kneading technique for about 20 minutes.

 

At this point the dough seems to respond to the 'two finger' test but slumps a bit under its own weight if formed into a ball. I go on to let it rise then put it into the banneton to rise some more, but my question here is, is the dough ALREADY too weak after kneading. Should I be adding more flour until I can form a ball which supports its own weight? Is it possible to have a loaf which is too large to support its own weight?

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Aurora56's picture
Aurora56 2011 March 28

 I'm no expert but I always use sugar in the bread recipe 2:1 ratio with the salt.  This may give a little energy-boost to the yeast. Also I always rise in a container lined with grease-proof paper (with a large overlap of paper) then when it is time to bake and the oven is ready I lift out the paper from the container and put directly on the preheated baking tray.  This way the bread has no time to spread.  However there is the consolation that even if the bread is flat it is much tastier that anything you can buy in the shops.

rossnroller 2011 March 28

Hello beresford.

There are many ways to make good SD bread, but that seems a strange process as you've described it. Most recipes start by feeding up your starter, then when it's nice and active, mixing the dough, resting, bulk proofing, pre-shaping then shaping, final proofing and baking. Since you're not happy with your current results, why not try a different approach?

I'd suggest you have a look through here and choose a recipe that appeals to you, follow the process as described, and see how your end result compares to that you are currently getting.

Cheers
Ross

LeadDog's picture
LeadDog 2011 March 28

Yes I think the dough is already to weak to form a loaf.  You are basically adding 300 grams of flour, oil, and salt to 650 grams of 100% hydration starter.  This gives you a loaf of about 66% hydration which is about right but I think the acids in the 600 plus grams of 100% starter are breaking down the gluten and your dough falls apart.  Do as Ross said and try a different recipe.  There are many around here and some of them are down right simple.  You could try the following just to see what happens and see if that gets you off to a good start.

Flour 100%

Water 67%

Salt 1.5%

Starter 70% hydration 20%

If you want to target a loaf of a given weight I can calculate the weights for you.  Let us know if you need more info.

 

beresford 2011 March 28

Thanks for the feedback. I based my initial efforts on this:

 

http://www.rivercottage.net/recipes/river-cottage-sourdough

 

I had looked round for a simple recipe that didn't involve adding sugar (since we don't tend to add sugar to food in the UK). The only changes I made were to substitute 20% rye flour and an oval banneton :)

 

Perhaps I will try the 1-2-3 technique, which sounds similar to what Leaddog is advocating, though I'm not sure what "Starter 70% hydration 20%" means. This would involve creating a 'pancake' of a certain weight, then adding twice the weight of water and three times the weight of flour and mixing (I think).

LeadDog's picture
LeadDog 2011 March 29

[quote=beresford]

Perhaps I will try the 1-2-3 technique, which sounds similar to what Leaddog is advocating, though I'm not sure what "Starter 70% hydration 20%" means. 

[/quote]

The 1-2-3 technique will be a good one for you to try.

I'll break down my gibberish for you.  The baking industry uses percentages for their formulas.  The percentages are all based on the flour in the dough.  A starter at 70% hydration means that for ever 100 parts of flour there is 70 parts water.  This would look like 100 grams of flour and 70 grams of water.  You can scale the weights up and down just so long as you keep that ratio you will have a starter of 70% hydration.  The 20% from above means that I would only add to the dough the weight of the starter that was 20% of the flour.  Lets say you wanted to use 1000 grams of flour then you would add 200 grams of starter.  The hydration of the starter is often not specified in many formulas online and starters can be kept anywhere from 50% hydration to 166% hydration.

Here is hoping to you making a great loaf this next time.

Millciti's picture
Millciti 2011 March 29

Hydration of sourdough is best formulated by weight - flour weights do vary.  Hydration is based on the amount that the flour is considered to be hydrated. Usually the standard starter is equal weigts water to flour or 100% hydration.  So how long has your starter been going, and when did you last use or discard most of it and refresh it or feed it about 5 times flour and water to 1 part starter? 

 

I agree you don't have to add sugar to sourdough, although it is used in some recipes.  I Also think the amount of starter or sponge you are creating is a too large a percentage of your dough,  like Duane said.  Most here use a rule of 40% or less for the amount of starter or sponge in your dough for the final phase.  Time could also be a factor.  Ed Woods' recipes slowly build up a sponge to a large amount, but only allow a couple of hours to proof the bread in the final stage and often utilize a bread pan.  So try what LeadDog suggests or try proofing in a pan for a shorter time.  Also rye does not act the same as whole grain wheat - it is a weak gluten grain.  It also tends to speed things up in the fermentation department, which could be weakening or breaking down your proteins (gluten).

 

Last question is how warm is your house?  Warmth speeds things up too.  The recipe leads you to think that you should be leaving your dough proofing all day.  Is this what you are doing and at what temperature?

Terri

beresford 2011 March 29

My house is currently about 17degC, The starter seems pretty active now I have stopped using fluoridated tap water (see different thread), at room temp it takes about 7 hours from feeding to become frothy. The recipe does suggest waiting a long time, but in this case I put it in a measuring jug after kneading and debouched it into the banneton after about three hours, when it had (something like) doubled. After another three hours it had reached the top of the banneton and at this point I tipped it onto the baking sheet and attempted to slash it. Perhaps I should have 'knocked it back' before putting it into the banneton, but I'm not sure how far you should go when 'knocking back'.

 

Anyhow, after I've destroyed the evidence of the last fiasco (it takes a while to eat) I will try 1-2-3 with some of the kneading and shaping tips from the 'sourdom' tutorial. I should also knock back the quantities a bit (currently 650g flour) until I can produce something I am happy with.

Merrid 2011 March 29

I was having trouble with the dough collapsing once tipped out of the banneton, until I realised I really wasn't doing enough shaping to get good tension in the skin before it went in. You don't mention shaping in your method above, so does that have anything to do with your results too?

beresford 2011 March 29

The shaping method I used was to flatten the dough out and then roll it up from one end like a carpet before putting it into the banneton. It slumped anyway, but sometimes there was still evidence of the spiral in the cut loaf.

Aurora56's picture
Aurora56 2011 March 30

 Dear beresford

 I saw the River Cottage programme re sourdough.  They make the dough very wet, I have tried this and it did not work e.g. the resulting bread was too flat.  Since then I try to keep the dough as dry as I can get away with.  I have just begun using my electronic bread-maker to knead the dough on the 'dough cycle'. At first I mixed the starter and the ingredients myself in a bowl and then transferred to the bread-maker for the kneading.  At the last two attempts I have put the starter and the ingredients into the bread-maker bowl and let the machine do all the work - and the rising. After about 9-hours I punch down the risen dough tip out knead a little bit, shape and put into greased loaf tins. This has given very good results.  Both the bread-maker bowl and loaf tins are lined with Teflon as yeast does not like metal so always use glass or plastic bowls, measuring cups and utensils.  Also spray the bread and oven around five times during the first 15-mins so the crust does not bake before the inner loaf as this will also retard the rise in the oven. Good Luck
beresford 2011 March 30

Thanks for the 'River Cottage' feedback. I also make dried-yeast bread in a loaf tin (my banneton-formed sourdough isn't the right shape for toasting) and I have tried to make the mix drier, but if I go too far then the dough doesn't rise at all and I end up with a brick. Any more information on "punching-down"? What I have found is that after 'bulk fermentation" the dough can be very light and sticky (like mousse) and that if I tried to punch it I would end up wearing a pair of dough boxing-gloves! With the loaf-tin, I just tip the dough into the tin and literally knock it downwards, with the help of flour to prevent sticking if needs be.

Merrid 2011 March 31

I don't think you're supposed to be as violent as punching down with sourdough. Even with yeasted breads, the breadmaker manuals call it "degassing" rather than punching down - basically just popping the very large bubbles.

I have found with bulk fermentation of sourdough, that if you fold it 2 or 3 times during the fermentation period, the dough does not end up so sticky. If you punch it after that point you just knock all the bubbles out and get a brick. If instead you do preshaping and shaping steps before putting in the banneton (or tin), bursting any exceptionally large bubbles if that's intefering with the shaping, that tends to give a nice even bubble distribution through the bread and a nice open crumb.

rossnroller 2011 March 31

With SD, I've also found that gentle is best. While some recipes direct that the dough be extensively kneaded, punched down etc, I just go ahead with an initial hand-mix, then an autolyse period followed by hourly stretch and folds during the bulk proof (every 30 minutes if in very warm conditions that require a reduced BP) - always works for me, and many others here.

I really hope you take up the suggestions offered above and try another recipe or two, beresford. You'll find that if you're using S&Fs, stickier higher hydration doughs are much more manageable - and the higher hydration does tend to give you the more open crumb many of us prefer.

Best of baking!
Ross

beresford 2011 April 3

Pancake:

27g rye

53g white

60ml water

1 tbsp starter

 

Add for loaf:

140g rye

280g white

280ml water

salt

rapeseed oil

 

Initially the pancake didn't ferment and I had to add extra water to both it and the loaf mix to get the right consistency. Perhaps this bag of white flour was unusually dry, I've had problems with everything I've tried to make with it.

 

Used 'short kneads', then folded every hour during bulk fermentation (this definitely makes a difference). Shaped it and left the bannetton in the fridge overnight (eight hours). The dough had risen to fill the banneton with a slightly convex surface, so there was no point in allowing it to rise further. Tipped banneton onto heated baking sheet, after a ten second delay the dough started to slump while I frantically tried to slash it. Didn't bother with water as I didn't want tooth-challenging bread. Turned heat down after ten minutes, and after twenty minutes moved from baking sheet onto bars in oven to make sure underside was dry and cooked.

 

What I have ended up with is a similar birds-eye-view shape to other banneton loaves shown on this site, 6 3/4" x 2 1/4" across the middle (one day I will buy a digital camera). The crumb texture is even, the taste slightly sour, and mouth sensation is light rather than the stringier stuff I had previously produced. I have also avoided the band of unrisen dough which is usually present at the bottom of all my home-made bread.

 

Looking back, I could have improved the activity of the pancake by recognising the hydration situation earlier. Is the expansion to fill the banneton (regardless of my shaping attempts) an indication of over-proving or the optimal behaviour?

 

 

Merrid 2011 April 7

You really want to look for the size of the increase in dough volume rather than how much it fills the banneton by. Bannetons come in different sizes, after all.

Millciti's picture
Millciti 2011 April 8

Some of your problems may be related to the amount of rye you are using, you could try substituting some of the rye for whole wheat.  Rye has a weaker type of gluten and is very sticky making it harder to determine if you have added enough flour.  Try working on getting a better loaf by adjustment - then when you are more skilled go back to the original recipe.  Also when you say white, is it unbleached all purpose or unbleached bread flour?  Or is it bleached or bromated?

 

You should also check out Northwest Sourdough's You-tube contributions.  Teresa was one of the early participants at this site and does a great job of demonstrating many of the sourdough techniques used here.  Search for Pane Teresa here on this site.  She also has a sourdough forum and has even written a book on sourdough baking -

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=northwest+sourdough+youtube&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=vid&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=3hqeTaHUEYbG0QGRjpXIBA&ved=0CCMQqwQ

 

Check out working with high hydration doughs!

 

 

 

 

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