I've been trying for months to bake sourdough bread successfully, but in spite of all the books and research, it ain't working. I use my bread machine to mix and knead, then take it out and shape and bake. I can bake other bread, just not sourdough.
I think I do the starter part okay; I usually wind up with tang and hooch. But when I mix it and start up the bread machine, when the rise starts, the consistency turns like soft ice cream. I mean, I can pull strings out of it, and it's impossible to shape. So then I add flour, and add flour, and add flour, til it looks like bread dough again.
But then it won't rise much, and if I try to bake it, it stays dense and pale and dry. I give up - I need some help.
*sob*
Replies
Hi Doc Pixel,
sounds like you might be letting your starter get too ripe. This is a common issue, and can be fixed by mixing it a fair bit thicker. You can redeem the one you have by simply adding a bit more flour, leaving it a day, then trying again. But if you've already thrown it out, try mixing it almost to the consistency of a dough. my blog, 'www.sourdoughbreadathome.blogspot.com' gives you a fair bit of detail on this, but briefly and as a guess, I'd say you're either mixing the starter too thin, or not feeding it a couple of times before trying to make bread. It stabilises over time. Good luck! Hope this helps!
Warwick
Thickerer, eh, almost like dough? Thanks, Warwick. I'll try your advice. ;)
By the way, (and I hope this won't get me tossed out :P) but does anyone add anything to increase the sour? It almost can't be too sour for me.
Um, don't add lots of flour if it goes beyod your recipe. I initially found the dough very tough to handle, especially as I've always had some rye in my doughs. Just manage the best you can with that soft sticky stuff, and bake it (try some oil or water on your hands to stop sticking, and use a scraper to pick it up - it sometimes is not pick-uppable without one!).
Also if it's got hooch on it, it really needs a feed and a bit of time to get active again so it's in shape for rising bread, I reckon. If you are taking it out of the fridge, give it two feeds at 12 hour intervals...
ALso what are your bulk ferment and proving times? Surely you don't just mix up and bake without some hours of fermenting/proving?
Gah, it's like trying to shape soft ice cream... but okay, I'll take another stab at it without adding flour. I'm sure it would need to be put in something to rise, though; it would never hold any kind of shape on a sheet. Maybe I should just leave it in the bread machine to bake...?
I generally feed twice daily for at least 5 days, until it smells and looks sour, keeping it in the oven with the light on. (I've leaned toward a wetter starter, but I'm going to try keeping it dryer now.)
When I'm ready to bake, per the recipe, I put the required amount of starter in the bread machine along with the suggested amount of flour, mix it up, then stop and let it sit for 8+ hours to ferment again. Then I add the rest of the flour and recipe ingredients and start the machine on dough cycle. When the machine stops for the rise cycle, the dough looks fine. But after a bit, it just slumps down and gets all soft, sticky and yucky. It's the oddest-looking stuff at that point.
It would be interesting to know what the ratio is of 8+ hours of fermented levain to new flour/water salt in your final bread dough, and then how long and what temperature you leave that to bulk ferment before shaping, then how long proving (after shaping), before you bake. Because it may be that if it is too long/warm bulk fermenting before you shape, it will go slack and oozy and overproved/fermented before you even shape it. Personally I bulk ferment for about 2.5 hours or so once the final bread dough is mixed, at around 20-23 celcius, with regular stretch-and folds (which helps keep it a bit "tighter"), before shaping. Then I will either retard in the fridge up to 20 or so hours, before a single hour back at room temp before baking, or if not fridge retarding, will prove for say 3 or 4 hours after the shaping (whatever the time, I always check the dough spring as the real measure before baking, as temperatures vary the time a lot). This is for my kitchen conditions and for a ratio or roughly 1 part by weight levain to 2 parts new-flour-and-water (and some salt) in the final bread dough. You will have to figure what works in your kitchen but - if your fermented levain is a bigger proportion of your final bread dough, your bulk ferment and final prove times will reduce, and vice versa.
I strongly suspect your dough is over fermenting. If that's right, try make sure the temperature isn't too warm, that your times are a bit shorter, and mayber add a greater proportion of new flour water in the final bread dough. If it's 28 celcius in my kitchen I have to cycle the fermenting bread dough in and out of the fridge to stop it overheating.
I use cane banettons, but before I had them I just used an ordinary glass bowl lined with a tea towel liberally dusted with flour. Pop the shaped boule in that (upside down) and, when proved and ready for the oven, at the last second, turn it onto a flat bit of wood or upside down flat baking tray (maybe on a bit of baking paper) and slide it from there onto a baking stone or whatever you are baking on.
We have a bread machine, but I'd never mix other than by hand - it gives you a feel for how the dough is behaving and whether it's too wet or dry...
The bread machine has been dormant pretty much for a couple of years now!
I had the same problem as Doc Pixel with my last loaf and davo you are spot on.
[quote]Because it may be that if it is too long/warm bulk fermenting before you shape, it will go slack and oozy and overproved/fermented before you even shape it.[/quote]
I was very happy with my second loaf (and should have stuck with that) but no.. last weekend I had to try to change things in my quest for the perfect loaf. I was reading another blog and got carried away with this idea, http://northwestsourdough.wordpress.com/2008/12/14/the-ultimate-san-fran... where the author talked about using a folding tray for the dough and putting the whole thing in a Jerry-rigged dishwasher to get a constant temp of 85F. I tried to do the same thing using my oven with the door open and the dough went all runny, sticky and completely unmanageable. I realise now I let it get too warm.
Thanks for the advice I will try again this weekend.
Overproving or proving too long at a higher temp is a common mistake we have all made. Just remember each sourdough culture is different from the next. Using someone elses recipe for sourdough is more of a guideline than an exact science. As our culture matures We also form sort of a symbiotic relationship with it. We learn to understand its nuances and needs. We also learn what works and what doesn't for our particular culture, at least in its present state. Most cultures do get a bit more stable over time, and we get more consistant results. I'm not sure if is the baker that changes and matures, or the sourdough culture! sourdough works better if you are more in touch with your dough. You should try stepping away from the bread machine too - sometimes.
So Doc, are you using rye in your starter or is it all white? Rye could explain some of the gumminess. Much that i have heard about rye is that it will fool you into adding more flour. Most who bake with it tell you not to add more rye it is really different than working with normal wheat type flours.
As for more sour there is an interesting discussion both here:
http://sourdough.com/forum/topic/90
And here too...
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3415/not-so-sour-sourdough
Hope this helps some... I am still learning too!
Also, lots of stuff that I have been reading lately suggests that whole grains do a lot to contribute to a more sour taste.
For Johnny... the dishwasher?!! I would worry that the clorine levels of the air in there might kill off some of your beasties! Try your oven with just the light on, mine gets a nice 72-75F overnight. If it is too warm with the light on leave it off check the temp leaving a themometer in there overnight.
Terri
I don't think anyone has covered the acid/alkali balance. The temperature thing is also probably relevant. But generally, starter becomes thinner as the bacteria/yeast mix in the ferment eats up the carbohydrate in the flour. So you don't need to worry too much about how thick the dough is - you can just add water to that (the dough) if you want to later.
What I'm talking about is avoiding allowing the starter to become to acidic in the first place. I suggested making it more doughy so you could get a bit more time between feeds. The stickiness indicates excess acidity, so a bit of a feed and then wait another day or so can settle it down. If you are finding it's getting away from you too quickly you can either refridgerate or pour off about half your starter and re feed.
It's all in my site, if you want it put more simply. I suggest you read the tab about starters and you'll understand what I'm talking about. They can be tricky to get your head around.
www.sourdoughbaker.com.au
Cheers, Warwick
This latest batch I started out with some rye, but all the other times have been unbleached bread flour. I've experimented with a lot of starters, including beer, potato water, etc. But they all pretty much do that soft ice cream thing.
So this last time, I tried leaving it thicker and in the bread machine to bake too, instead of taking it out to shape and bake. It was laughable. :( There was - how to describe this? Brown baked goop around the sides almost to the top, and inside the goop, a pale loaf more like cornbread texture. Crumbly.
A couple of you mentioned high temps, and I suspect you're right. It gets pretty warm in my oven with the light on. So even though the books say it's okay, I'll start over with a new starter and just leave it at room temp. Sigh.
Is bread flour okay to use for starter? Or is that my huge mistake and I should use all-purpose?
Thanks, Warwick, I'll go give that a read.
Sarah