It me Again, I have been following two starters: San Fransico Starter and Biga acida. I have got a few recipes for these but can you just stcik to two or do you have to use a variety of starters? Thanks

not all things work best. However, it all depends what you want to make.

Here's an example, follow a typical sequence.

Lets say we make some home bread for the weekend which may consists of the following;

5 X 1.100 long baskets

4 x .600 Buttci

This is what I'll do.

5 x 1.100 = 5.500 4 x .600 = 2.400 +

total = 7.900 ÷ 165.5% = 4.773kg Req flour

Therefore:

Base formula: % wt. 30% sourdough leaven content

Flour/meal 100 4.800

water +/- 63 3.024

salt 2 .096

diastatic malt .5 .024

total 165.5 7.944

Detailed formula:

Sourdough 30% of total flour/meal, 4.800 X 30% = 1.440

% wt Starter = 20% .288 * (when sourdough mature remove starter for next sourdough inoculation) Stone ground meal 100 1.440 water 55 .792 diastatic malt .5 .007 Total DY 155.5 2.239 * starter not included in total Fermemtation time 18 hrs Temp. 22'C

This is fairly typical in terms of formula construction I use as it's simple;

The final proof refrigeration step allows me to shorten my day and sleep during the final proof. It doesn't have to be done this way it's just a suggestion.

* It's
the same starter weight that comes out from the sourdough after
maturity as went in at the start, which means I've maintained a starter
seperately at the same time as renewing it each time I make some bread
to keep it fresh.

I have to admit this formula construction is the German Baking trade
method. I've adopted it because it's simple and gives the baker control
over the DY and the starter renewal each time. It allows me to easily
visualise the formula and the character of the final dough on the basis
of the base formula. Finally,
it allows me to construct as many different sourdough formulas as I
like for the same base formula depending on the production system I'm
using - hand or semi-automated - with the least calculation work.

If you have
any questions on the above or slashing I'll be happy to help where I
can. But don't forget to check out [url=http://sourdough.com.au/?q=blog/sourdom]Sour Dom's blog[/url] there are plenty of good tips and details I've not covered.

my wife is Hungarian, she calls it a "buttci", which is a slang word used to make reference to things that are considered "cute". She uses it because the other loaves are larger and this one is smaller.

[quote=Jeremy]...could you lower the levain weight or higher it?[/quote]

You can do what ever you want and it'll produce a slightly different result if you do not change the temp s and times. See below;

5 x 1.100 = 5.500 4 x .600 = 2.400 +

total = 7.900 ÷ 165.5% = 4.773kg Req flour

Therefore:

Base formula: % wt. 35% sourdough leaven content

Flour/meal 100 4.800

water +/- 63 3.024

salt 2 .096

diastatic malt .5 .024

total 165.5 7.944

Detailed formula:

Sourdough 30% of total flour/meal, 4.800 X 35% = 1.680

% wt Starter = 20% .336 * (when sourdough mature remove starter for next sourdough inoculation) Stone ground meal 100 1.680 water 55 .924 diastatic malt .5 .008 Total DY 155.5 2.612 * starter not included in total Fermemtation time 18 hrs Temp. 22'C

Bread Dough

Sourdough 2.612

Bakers flour 3.120 flour is adjusted to account for more in sourdough

water +/- 2.100 water is adjusted to account for more in sourdough

salt .096

diastatic malt .016 malt is adjusted to account for more in sourdough

The sourdough leaven content has been increased and formula has been balanced but the temps and times have remained the same. This will mean the resultant bread will be different.

[quote=Jeremy]And I suppose you could vary the flour types in the final dough or even the leaven?

Buttci, hmmm! [/quote]

Yep, you can do what ever you like as long as you realise every change will yield a different result. Some changes will have a more extreme effect than others.

Yeah, I know, it's a Hungarian thing. I've been corrected over my shoulder, my apologies, it: "buci" a diminutive word. In fact the ending "ci" can be added to most nouns for declension. blah, blah.

I have the starter working since last night, mixed in a bit of rye starter with wheat, may add like a sort of bise mix of rye/wheat in the final dough, will keep you posted, though I in the starter process, you make 30% of the flour total then remove a bit for the next batch leaving you with then an actual 20% percent? Got a bit confused there, hope I don't screw this bread up?

Only the amount of "starter" used to inoculate is removed so the there should still be 30% flour content in the final dough.

Case 1 [quote] Sourdough 30% of total flour/meal, 4.800 X 30% = 1.440

% wt Starter = 20% .288 * (when sourdough mature remove starter for next sourdough inoculation) Stone ground meal 100 1.440 water 55 .792 diastatic malt .5 .007 Total DY 155.5 2.239 * starter not included in total[/quote]

Only .288 starter removed which is the original put in.

Case 2 [quote] Sourdough 30% of total flour/meal, 4.800 X 35% = 1.680

% wt Starter = 20% .336 * (when sourdough mature remove starter for next sourdough inoculation) Stone ground meal 100 1.680 water 55 .924 diastatic malt .5 .008 Total DY 155.5 2.612 * starter not included in total[/quote]

Only .336 starter removed which is te original put in.

The final yield remains in tact.

Maedi, Is there any reason that my curser does not remain visible during text box typing? Makes it hard to type. Never mind, it's back!

Oh, and I can't copy and paste using keystrokes either; this is still disabled.

Base formula % Wt. Flour 100 .665 Water 63.15 .420 Salt 2.25 .015 Malt .45 .003
Total 165.85 1.103

Leaven ~ 27.11% flour 100 .199 Water 37.6 .075 Malt pinch .5 .001 Starter 20 .040 * assume not included?
Total 158.1 .275

Final dough Starter/Leaven? .205 Flour .535 Water .340 Salt .015
Malt .005 Total DY 1.100

Ok, I hope you don't mind my changing the format but it makes it easier to follow for me. As far as I can tell the Base formula is different to the two others (Leaven and dough). Where as the base formula should be an addition of the two.

For example the starter/leaven in the bread dough is .075 less than the Leaven you made? The flour weight is not balanced either. Below is how I would do it.

Revised Base formula % Wt. Flour 100 .665 Water 63.15 .420 Salt 2.25 .015 Malt .45 .003
Total 165.85 1.103

Leaven ~ 30% flour 100 .199 Water 37.6 .075 Malt pinch .5 .001 Starter 20 .040 * not included in yield calcs, removed at maturity
Total 158.1 .275

Final dough Leaven .275 Flour .466 Water .345 Salt .015
Malt .002 Total DY 1.103

To explain: if you add the flour weights in both leaven and dough they equal the base formula flour weight, the same is true of the water and the malt.

Ok, got it, now the dough I made will be the non-revised as I think you may have gone to bed? As for the final proof, is that 18hours total in fridge? What is the 3-4 hours warming up out of fridge?

[quote=Jermey]As for the final proof, is that 18hours total in fridge? What is the 3-4 hours warming up out of fridge?[/quote]

Yep, the DTO (dough to Oven) - from the time the dough finishes mixing until it enters the oven no matter what process it is subject to during that time- scaling, moulding, fridge, prover, etc is approx 24 hrs.

Hi Boris, not sure if this is the right place, but since this thread has alot of percentage stuff, is there a way of reversing this math - I have recipes with totals but would like to formalize them with baker's percentages. I can see the advantages of this system.

Why don't you post a formula and we'll give it the 'once over' so you can see how it's done. Then when time allows we can start a thread where we can delve into explanations in more detail.

Now to throw in a soaker of seeds or grain, where or what do you do? Could it be added into the leaven itself? Oh, and are they considered as part of the dough weight or flour?

[quote=Panevino]Great Boris, here's a walnut au levain. Thank you.

CHEF` 1400g

water 700g white flour 560g whole wheat 140g

STARTER 4020g

chef 1400g water 1086g flour 1534g

DOUGH 14365

levain 4020g water 4100g flour 4165g wwf 800g walnuts 1300g salt 165g

[/quote]

Ok, Tony & Jeremy.

Aim:

calculate a Base Formula

calculate Base Formula percentages

calculate a Detailed Formula

calculate sourdough leaven formula percentages

calculate the detailed amounts of flour/meal percentages in each stage and produce a revised formula

Method as follows;

First thing is to add up all the varying types of flours/meals into their respective groups and find a total. This is done for all the other ingredients also, water, salt walnuts, etc. see below:

white flour .560 + 1.534 + 4.165 = 6.259 whole wheatmeal .140 + .800 = .940 Total = 7.199

We designate the flour weight 100% and calculate the other ingredients as a percentage of that 100.

example: water .700 + 1.086 + 4.100 = 5.886

convert the weight to percentage; 5.886 ÷ 7.199 x 100 =
81.76%

Percentage of flour in the sourdough and starter/chef* (sourdough leaven content)

flour/meal .560 + .140 + 1.534 = 2.234

convert to percentage of the total flour weight 2.234 ÷ 7.199 x 100 = 31.03%

* since you incorporate the starter/chef into the bread dough it will need to be included in the total flour weight as the base formula must include everything that goes into the bread dough without exception! I'm not keen on the practice of including starter into the leaven bread dough as my earlier post explains but to follow your method I've included it.

* the sourdough leaven formula is treated as formula in its own right so we designate percentages but it must be realised that it is part of/within the Base Formula. However, your method includes the starter/chef into the leaven bread dough which masks the true flour and water content. this wil mean that using this method when you increase the size of the dough the discrepancy will grow also. See the revised formula which takes all into account but is predicated on extracting the starter/chef from the sourdough leaven at maturity before incorporating into the leaven bread dough.

To make this exercise more efficient these percentages should be rounded to obvious whole numbers and round decimals. These roundings will make a practical difference without loss of product quality or character. In my opinion they could be rounded further for ease but see revised formula where at least some rounding has been carried out below; ____________________________________________________________________

Revised Base Formula:
Sourdough leaven content ~ 31%

% Wt.

Flour ( 87 6.288 )

Whole wheatmeal ( 13 .940 ) 100

water +/- 81 5.855

salt 2.3 .166

walnuts 18 1.301

Total DY 201.3 14.550

Detailed Formula:

Sourdough % Wt.

starter* 62.5 1.400

flour 94 2.107

whole wheatmeal 6 .134

water 80 1.793

Total DY 180 4.034

* starter not included in the yield, this means it will be renewed and available for next batch. This method will also allow you to see the entire flour & water content of the sourdough leaven as the starter flour & water content will not be hidden or masked in the total.

The percentage of water in the final bread dough is always a percentage with the +/- symbols as flour absorption power varies from batch to batch so the baker can determine the exact addition that will be very close to the calculated percentage.

Although this formula seems simple enough it's actually a complicated formula as it contains two types of flours in all three stages: starter, sourdough leaven & leaven bread dough. So these percentages are listed and the small amounts of wholemeal in every stage is accounted for so a formula as close as exact can be is achieved when increased/decreased to what ever size with minimum discrepancy.

doesn't need to as complicated but I've tried to preserve what you've been doing to a detailed degree and document it within the revision. Read it carefully with a calculator and discover how each detail is documented in the revised formula.

Good luck, Tony

Jeremy, as time allows a formula with a soaker will be put up here and revised, which doesn't have to be complicated as the meals can be grouped rather than spread throughout each step.

Thanks Boris, I'll have a good look over the weekend as I'm in the process of laying concrete pavers (I'd rather be baking). I already noticed a few things that I could adjust.

I hated math as a child, the age of computers has made me lazy, good lessons to be learned for sure! Does the 18 hour retard have to always be set in the baking pattern? Can you do without the retarding?

Hello Boris, just a quick note on why I add what I call the "chef" into the equation. That 1.400 represents a second build of usually 12 hrs. I have many 1.400 "chefs" that are made from a storage culture that I keep separate and build according to need the next day, etc. So I may have 10 kg of this so called "chef" that I use to innoculate what I have been calling (in my mind) an "intermediate starter" that rises for only 2-4 hours. This "intermediate starter" is the 4.020 amount that I called the "starter". I don't actually pull out the 1.400 "chef" amount from the total DY.

This is a new language so clarity is an issue for me!!

[quote=Panevino]Hello Boris, just a quick note on why I add what I call the "chef" into the equation. That 1.400 represents a second build of usually 12 hrs. I have many 1.400 "chefs" that are made from a storage culture that I keep separate and build according to need the next day, etc. So I may have 10 kg of this so called "chef" that I use to innoculate what I have been calling (in my mind) an "intermediate starter" that rises for only 2-4 hours. This "intermediate starter" is the 4.020 amount that I called the "starter".[/quote]

In that case technically speaking you're using a 3 or 2 stage sourdough leaven. To clarify;

Your terms:

Chef = is a 2nd stage?

Starter = is a 3rd stage?

In that case you're quite correct to include it in the the DY. However, this means the earlier step is actually used to incoulate or "start" the whole process, but that earlier step (I assume this is the earliest step?) should not be included in the DY.

Ok, to give this exercise accuracy can you provide the earlier step, - and any other steps I might not be aware of - its quantities, and makeup so the multiple stages can also be included in the Base formula?

[quote=Panevino]I don't actually pull out the 1.400 "chef" amount from the total DY.

This is a new language so clarity is an issue for me!![/quote]

Yes, I realised you didn't pull it out, but since I was under the impression that this was the first initiating/seeding or "starting" step I revised accordingly. But now that you've made it clearer, which means it's really a sourdough leaven at its 2nd stage, I can see why you don't pull it out. But this means I need to know the details of the preceeding step/s to accurately document the formula and identify every component.

starter .140 water .630 white flour .490 whole wheat .140

The starter is from the previous fully active bucket from which I innoculate the 1.400 "chef" from above. This is done twelve hrs earlier.

So, the

.140 12hrs 1.400 12hrs 4.020 2-4hrs full dough 3hrs

etc.

I never take any thing away, but I backslop from the big bucket which has been fermenting 12hrs and is fully active. I then start the build again until the next bake. I think I'm repeating myself!!

The "starter" is the first culture to initiate the fermentation that eventually finds it way into your bread dough?

Where does the starter originate other than from the bucket?

Is the starter a piece of mature sourdough from the first stage returned to the bucket?

finally is the starter included in the yield?

Sorry about all the questions, Tony, but I'm not clear on exactly what happens. I sometimes use multiple stage sourdoughs - although not as often as I did - and I still use a portion of the mature sourdough as a starter. At sourdough maturity it is always removed and isn't included in the dough yield.

I maintain an .80 jar of leaven independent of my dough. So, to do so and to build my 1.400 kg starter that I use to build the intermediate starter, the 4.020 kg, I do the following:

- take .14 gr from the jar - build to .140 gr - build to 1.408 kg - remove .08 gr, clean out the jar, and build to .80 gr for the jar - use the remaining 1.400 kg to build my 4.020 kg intermediate starter - proceed to total dough with walnuts, etc.

The process that I described is exactly how it all happens. I guess the unclarity was I never expained that the 1.400 kg is actually 1.408 kg with .08 gr removed.

[quote=Panevino]Hey Boris, you're forcing me to think!

I maintain an .80 jar of leaven independent of my dough. So, to do so and to build my 1.400 kg starter that I use to build the intermediate starter, the 4.020 kg, I do the following:

- take .14 gr from the jar is that 140g or 14g? if using 'grams' don't use decimal points - build to .140 gr - build to 1.408 kg if you use 1400g or 1.400kg the remaining will be 8g/.008kg - remove .08 gr, clean out the jar, and build to .80 gr for the jar 8g to 80g or 8g to 800g/.800kg or .008 to .080, or .800 - use the remaining 1.400 kg to build my 4.020 kg intermediate starter - proceed to total dough with walnuts, etc.

The process that I described is exactly how it all happens. I guess the unclarity was I never expained that the 1.400 kg is actually 1.408 kg with .08 gr removed.

Thank you

Tony [/quote]

Thinking is very important.....

I believe I've got what you're telling me, but your decimals may need some diciplined revising.

see my red text.

Ok, so you do actually cycle your starter through the sourdough and remove it to store. I've got other questions to ask you on the rationale of the method you employ but for now we should deal with documenting your formula and method with the numbers only. Later we can explore a simplification if you wish, but it'd be a suggestion only as I know bakers get accustomed to and have confidence in a method they've been working with for a long time.

I maintain an 80 gr jar of leaven independent of my dough. So, to do
so and to build my 1.400 kg starter that I use to build the
intermediate starter, the 4.020 kg, I do the following:

- take 14 gr from the jar - build to 140 gr - build to 1.408 kg - remove 8 gr, clean out the jar, and build to 80 gr for the jar - use the remaining 1.400 kg to build my 4.020 kg intermediate starter - proceed to total dough with walnuts, etc.

The
process that I described is exactly how it all happens. I guess the
unclarity was I never expained that the 1.400 kg is actually 1.408 kg
with 8 gr removed.

FYI Boris, I will try and anticipate one of your questions by letting you know that I don't bake everyday so the 80 gr jar is a culture I keep going in between bakes. This is about to change very shortly and baking bread will be a daily/nightly activity so any simplification of methodology and timing can be helpfull indeed. My only concern with changing procedure is the pontential change in flavour.

I would remove the starter from the third stage and make it the same amount that was used at the start. As well as this I'd round up and down some of those odd percentages. In the interest of practicality it's easier to have round numbers even with the water but you can still vary the water on the basis of the absorption ability of each batch of flour. There's still a discrepancy due to way the starter is added and removed in different quantities. It's a negligible amount but it really should be balanced.

Check it carefully in case I've missed something. Have you tried making it with a 2 stage or a single stage process? I'd be interested to see if you notice a marked difference if it was a blind test.

Thanks Danubian. So you're saying that I should remove the 8 gr from the 4020 gr amount? So it will become 4028 gr. I'll experiment with the two other options you suggested.

[quote=Panevino]Thanks Danubian. So you're saying that I should remove the 8 gr from the 4020 gr amount? So it will become 4028 gr. I'll experiment with the two other options you suggested. [/quote]

In the first stage you used .014 of starter; but you remove .008 at the completion of stage 2. Really you should remove .014 at the completion of stage 3 because that 's the end of your sourdough. Stage 3 goes from 4.020 to 4.006. See below;

[edit] just to tidy up

Sourdough flour ~ 31% of total = 2.240 DY 183.6

Stage 1 Sourdough % Wt.

starter* 20 .014

flour/meal 100 .070

water 80 .056

Total DY 180 .140 Time 12 hrs

Stage 2 Sourdough % Wt.

stage 1 .140

flour 77 .489 )

meal 23 .146 ) 100

water 100 .635

Total DY 200 1.410
Time 12 hrs

Stage 3 Sourdough % Wt.

stage 2 1.410

flour l 100 1.534

water 71 1.089

Total DY 171 4.019 *(removed .014 to be new starter) Time 2 - 4 hrs

After that it becomes bread dough. Doing this will remove any mathematical discrepancy, and it will ensure the piece removed has the most and best flora representation of your entire sourdough.

Good luck, and let us know how this goes. I'm keen to know how the whole thing unfolds from the process to the final product evaluation. Pictures are always good too.

My starter is 100% hydrated yet the initial sour dough mixture requires only 55% hydration. So when I take my starter back out from the sour dough it will be thicker and more like a dough than a batter. Also does this formula still apply if the in starter is 100% hydrated or do I need to ad a greater percentage to get the mix right? Or am I completely missing something ? In which case I apologize.

You're referring to the formula at the top of this thread. It's really nothing special, that's why it's a good one because it includes the basics of sourdough bread. However, the hydration is up to you. If you wish to use a sourdough with a dough yield (DY) of 200 which means 100% water then that's fine. But if you wish to maintain the original final bread dough DY hydration you need to realise that the extra 45% you added to your sougdough comes out of the base formula. This means at the dough stage water will be reduced to stay within the approximate base formula hydration.

Of course it'll change the bread character slightly but you may prefer it that way; so give it a go.

Hey Danubian, thanks for clearing that up for me. I have used your basic formula a few of times and I have produced some good loaves. The bread tastes great.

Good luck, and let us know how this goes. I'm
keen to know how the whole thing unfolds from the process to the final
product evaluation. Pictures are always good too. [/quote]

Hey Boris, I've been experimenting with this and have tried the two
stage you suggested and am pleased with the outcome. It's made my life
a little easier without any down side regarding quality. The picture
in the "slashed breads" thread is one of the breads made this new way.
The flavour is lactically deeper, which I like. I've essentially
lengthened the fermentaion time because I bulk ferment a bigger portion
of the levain for longer. All in all, very pleased. I also use your
baker's percentages tutorial all the time and am quite gratefull for
your efforts and your PATIENCE. You are a great teacher.

## Replies

Here's an example, follow a typical sequence.

Lets say we make some home bread for the weekend which may consists of the following;

5 X 1.100 long baskets

4 x .600 Buttci

This is what I'll do.

5 x 1.100 = 5.500

4 x .600 = 2.400 +

total = 7.900 ÷ 165.5% = 4.773kg Req flour

Therefore:

Base formula: % wt. 30% sourdough leaven content

- Flour/meal 100 4.800

- water +/- 63 3.024

- salt 2 .096
- diastatic malt .5 .024

total 165.5 7.944Detailed formula:

Sourdough 30% of total flour/meal, 4.800 X 30% = 1.440

% wt

Starter = 20% .288 * (when sourdough mature remove starter

for next sourdough inoculation)

Stone ground meal 100 1.440

water 55 .792

diastatic malt .5 .007

Total DY 155.5 2.239 * starter not included in total

Fermemtation time 18 hrs

Temp. 22'C

Bread Dough

- Sourdough 2.239
- Bakers flour 3.360
- water 2.232

- salt .096
- diastatic malt .017

- Total DY 7.944

DTO 24hrsBulk Fermentation 3hrs @ 22'C (room temp)

Final proof 18hrs @ 2'C (fridge) 3-4hrs @ 22'C

This is fairly typical in terms of formula construction I use as it's simple;

The final proof refrigeration step allows me to shorten my day and sleep during the final proof. It doesn't have to be done this way it's just a suggestion.

* It's the same starter weight that comes out from the sourdough after maturity as went in at the start, which means I've maintained a starter seperately at the same time as renewing it each time I make some bread to keep it fresh.

I have to admit this formula construction is the German Baking trade method. I've adopted it because it's simple and gives the baker control over the DY and the starter renewal each time. It allows me to easily visualise the formula and the character of the final dough on the basis of the base formula. Finally, it allows me to construct as many different sourdough formulas as I like for the same base formula depending on the production system I'm using - hand or semi-automated - with the least calculation work.

If you have any questions on the above or slashing I'll be happy to help where I can. But don't forget to check out [url=http://sourdough.com.au/?q=blog/sourdom]Sour Dom's blog[/url] there are plenty of good tips and details I've not covered.

The base formula is the 165% I see, still early and no coffee yet!

What is a buttci?

What is a buttci?

[/quote]

my wife is Hungarian, she calls it a "buttci", which is a slang word used to make reference to things that are considered "cute". She uses it because the other loaves are larger and this one is smaller.

[quote=Jeremy]...could you lower the levain weight or higher it?[/quote]

You can do what ever you want and it'll produce a slightly different result if you do not change the temp s and times. See below;

5 x 1.100 = 5.500

4 x .600 = 2.400 +

total = 7.900 ÷ 165.5% = 4.773kg Req flour

Therefore:

Base formula: % wt. 35% sourdough leaven content

- Flour/meal 100 4.800

- water +/- 63 3.024

- salt 2 .096
- diastatic malt .5 .024

total 165.5 7.944Detailed formula:

Sourdough 30% of total flour/meal, 4.800 X 35% = 1.680

% wt

Starter = 20% .336 * (when sourdough mature remove starter

for next sourdough inoculation)

Stone ground meal 100 1.680

water 55 .924

diastatic malt .5 .008

Total DY 155.5 2.612 * starter not included in total

Fermemtation time 18 hrs

Temp. 22'C

Bread Dough

- Sourdough 2.612
- Bakers flour 3.120 flour is adjusted to account for more in sourdough
- water +/- 2.100 water is adjusted to account for more in sourdough

- salt .096
- diastatic malt .016 malt is adjusted to account for more in sourdough
- Total DY 7.944

DTO 24hrsBulk Fermentation 3hrs @ 22'C (room temp)

Final proof 18hrs @ 2'C (fridge) 3-4hrs @ 22'C

The sourdough leaven content has been increased and formula has been balanced but the temps and times have remained the same. This will mean the resultant bread will be different.

Buttci, hmmm!

Buttci, hmmm!

[/quote]

Yep, you can do what ever you like as long as you realise every change will yield a different result. Some changes will have a more extreme effect than others.

Yeah, I know, it's a Hungarian thing. I've been corrected over my shoulder, my apologies, it: "buci" a diminutive word. In fact the ending "ci" can be added to most nouns for declension. blah, blah.

Case 1

[quote]

Sourdough 30% of total flour/meal, 4.800 X 30% = 1.440

% wt

Starter = 20% .288 * (when sourdough mature remove starter

for next sourdough inoculation)

Stone ground meal 100 1.440

water 55 .792

diastatic malt .5 .007

Total DY 155.5 2.239 * starter not included in total[/quote]

Only .288 starter removed which is the original put in.

Case 2

[quote]

Sourdough 30% of total flour/meal, 4.800 X 35% = 1.680

% wt

Starter = 20% .336 * (when sourdough mature remove starter

for next sourdough inoculation)

Stone ground meal 100 1.680

water 55 .924

diastatic malt .5 .008

Total DY 155.5 2.612 * starter not included in total[/quote]

Only .336 starter removed which is te original put in.

The final yield remains in tact.

Maedi,

Is there any reason that my curser does not remain visible during text box typing? Makes it hard to type. Never mind, it's back!

Oh, and I can't copy and paste using keystrokes either; this is still disabled.

Base formula

Flour 665g

Water 420g

Salt 15g

Malt 3g

Leaven

flour 199g

Water 75g

Malt pinch

Starter 40g

Final dough

205g Starter

535g Flour

340g Water

15g Salt

5 g Malt

DY 1100

Flour 100 .665

Water 63.15 .420

Salt 2.25 .015

Malt .45 .003

Total 165.85 1.103

Leaven ~ 27.11%

flour 100 .199

Water 37.6 .075

Malt pinch .5 .001

Starter 20 .040 * assume not included?

Total 158.1 .275

Final dough

Starter/Leaven? .205

Flour .535

Water .340

Salt .015

Malt .005

Total DY 1.100

Ok, I hope you don't mind my changing the format but it makes it easier to follow for me. As far as I can tell the Base formula is different to the two others (Leaven and dough). Where as the base formula should be an addition of the two.

For example the starter/leaven in the bread dough is .075 less than the Leaven you made? The flour weight is not balanced either. Below is how I would do it.

Revised

Base formula % Wt.

Flour 100 .665

Water 63.15 .420

Salt 2.25 .015

Malt .45 .003

Total 165.85 1.103

Leaven ~ 30%

flour 100 .199

Water 37.6 .075

Malt pinch .5 .001

Starter 20 .040 * not included in yield calcs, removed at maturity

Total 158.1 .275

Final dough

Leaven .275

Flour .466

Water .345

Salt .015

Malt .002

Total DY 1.103

To explain: if you add the flour weights in both leaven and dough they equal the base formula flour weight, the same is true of the water and the malt.

As for the final proof, is that 18hours total in fridge? What is the 3-4 hours warming up out of fridge?

Your humble but not too bright lazy baker!

Yep, the DTO (dough to Oven) - from the time the dough finishes mixing until it enters the oven no matter what process it is subject to during that time- scaling, moulding, fridge, prover, etc is approx 24 hrs.

See below:

[quote]

DTO 24hrs

Bulk Fermentation 3hrs @ 22'C (room temp)

Final proof 18hrs @ 2'C (fridge) 3-4hrs @ 22'C

[/quote]

CHEF` 1400g

water 700g

white flour 560g

whole wheat 140g

STARTER 4020g

chef 1400g

water 1086g

flour 1534g

DOUGH 14365

levain 4020g

water 4100g

flour 4165g

wwf 800g

walnuts 1300g

salt 165g

Jeremy

CHEF` 1400g

water 700g

white flour 560g

whole wheat 140g

STARTER 4020g

chef 1400g

water 1086g

flour 1534g

DOUGH 14365

levain 4020g

water 4100g

flour 4165g

wwf 800g

walnuts 1300g

salt 165g

[/quote]

Ok, Tony & Jeremy.

Aim:

Method as follows;

- First thing is to add up all the varying types of flours/meals into their respective groups and find a total. This is done for all the other ingredients also, water, salt walnuts, etc. see below:

white flour .560 + 1.534 + 4.165 = 6.259whole wheatmeal .140 + .800 = .940

Total = 7.199

We designate the flour weight 100% and calculate the other ingredients as a percentage of that 100.

example: water .700 + 1.086 + 4.100 = 5.886

convert the weight to percentage; 5.886 ÷ 7.199 x 100 = 81.76%

Percentage of flour in the sourdough and starter/chef* (sourdough leaven content)

flour/meal .560 + .140 + 1.534 = 2.234

convert to percentage of the total flour weight 2.234 ÷ 7.199 x 100 = 31.03%

* since you incorporate the starter/chef into the bread dough it will need to be included in the total flour weight as the base formula must include everything that goes into the bread dough without exception! I'm not keen on the practice of including starter into the leaven bread dough as my earlier post explains but to follow your method I've included it.

Base Formula:

Sourdough leaven content ~ 31.3%

% Wt.

- Flour ( 86.94 6.259 )

- Whole wheat meal ( 13.06 .940 ) 100

- water +/- 81.76 5.886
- salt 2.29 .165
- walnuts 18 1.300

Total DY 202.05 14.550Detailed Formula:

Sourdough* % Wt.

- flour 100 1.534
- water 70.79 1.086
- starter 91.26 1.400

Total DY 263.05 4.020Sourdough leaven Bread dough Wt.

Flour 86.94% Whole wheatmeal 13.06%

- Sourdough leaven 4.020
- Whole wheatmeal .800
- white flour 4.165
- water +/- 4.100
- salt .165
- walnuts 1.300

Total DY 14.550* the sourdough leaven formula is treated as formula in its own right so we designate percentages but it must be realised that it is part of/within the Base Formula. However, your method includes the starter/chef into the leaven bread dough which masks the true flour and water content. this wil mean that using this method when you increase the size of the dough the discrepancy will grow also. See the revised formula which takes all into account but is predicated on extracting the starter/chef from the sourdough leaven at maturity before incorporating into the leaven bread dough.

To make this exercise more efficient these percentages should be rounded to obvious whole numbers and round decimals. These roundings will make a practical difference without loss of product quality or character. In my opinion they could be rounded further for ease but see revised formula where at least some rounding has been carried out below;

____________________________________________________________________

Revised Base Formula:

Sourdough leaven content ~ 31%

% Wt.

- Flour ( 87 6.288 )

- Whole wheatmeal ( 13 .940 ) 100

- water +/- 81 5.855
- salt 2.3 .166
- walnuts 18 1.301

Total DY 201.3 14.550Detailed Formula:

Sourdough % Wt.

starter* 62.5 1.400

- flour 94 2.107
- whole wheatmeal 6 .134

- water 80 1.793

Total DY 180 4.034* starter not included in the yield, this means it will be renewed and available for next batch. This method will also allow you to see the entire flour & water content of the sourdough leaven as the starter flour & water content will not be hidden or masked in the total.

Sourdough leaven Bread dough Wt.

13% Meal/87% flour

- Sourdough leaven 4.034
- Whole wheatmeal .806
- white flour 4.181
- water +/- 4.062
- salt .166
- walnuts 1.301

Total DY 14.550The percentage of water in the final bread dough is always a percentage with the +/- symbols as flour absorption power varies from batch to batch so the baker can determine the exact addition that will be very close to the calculated percentage.

Although this formula seems simple enough it's actually a complicated formula as it contains two types of flours in all three stages: starter, sourdough leaven & leaven bread dough. So these percentages are listed and the small amounts of wholemeal in every stage is accounted for so a formula as close as exact can be is achieved when increased/decreased to what ever size with minimum discrepancy.

Good luck, Tony

Jeremy, as time allows a formula with a soaker will be put up here and revised, which doesn't have to be complicated as the meals can be grouped rather than spread throughout each step.

I'll try to answer questions as they arise.

[/quote]

That's just the sort of useful tool I use too; but it helps to understand it as well as using the tools to minimise the number crunching.

Tony

Does the 18 hour retard have to always be set in the baking pattern? Can you do without the retarding?

This is a new language so clarity is an issue for me!!

Cheers

Tony

In that case technically speaking you're using a 3 or 2 stage sourdough leaven. To clarify;

Your terms:

Chef = is a 2nd stage?

Starter = is a 3rd stage?

In that case you're quite correct to include it in the the DY. However, this means the earlier step is actually used to incoulate or "start" the whole process, but that earlier step (I assume this is the earliest step?) should not be included in the DY.

Ok, to give this exercise accuracy can you provide the earlier step, - and any other steps I might not be aware of - its quantities, and makeup so the multiple stages can also be included in the Base formula?

[quote=Panevino]I don't actually pull out the 1.400 "chef" amount from the total DY.

This is a new language so clarity is an issue for me!![/quote]

Yes, I realised you didn't pull it out, but since I was under the impression that this was the first initiating/seeding or "starting" step I revised accordingly. But now that you've made it clearer, which means it's really a sourdough leaven at its 2nd stage, I can see why you don't pull it out. But this means I need to know the details of the preceeding step/s to accurately document the formula and identify every component.

starter .140

water .630

white flour .490

whole wheat .140

The starter is from the previous fully active bucket from which I innoculate the 1.400 "chef" from above. This is done twelve hrs earlier.

So, the

.140 12hrs

1.400 12hrs

4.020 2-4hrs

full dough 3hrs

etc.

I never take any thing away, but I backslop from the big bucket which has been fermenting 12hrs and is fully active. I then start the build again until the next bake. I think I'm repeating myself!!

Tony

Sorry about all the questions, Tony, but I'm not clear on exactly what happens. I sometimes use multiple stage sourdoughs - although not as often as I did - and I still use a portion of the mature sourdough as a starter. At sourdough maturity it is always removed and isn't included in the dough yield.

I maintain an .80 jar of leaven independent of my dough. So, to do so and to build my 1.400 kg starter that I use to build the intermediate starter, the 4.020 kg, I do the following:

- take .14 gr from the jar

- build to .140 gr

- build to 1.408 kg

- remove .08 gr, clean out the jar, and build to .80 gr for the jar

- use the remaining 1.400 kg to build my 4.020 kg intermediate starter

- proceed to total dough with walnuts, etc.

The process that I described is exactly how it all happens. I guess the unclarity was I never expained that the 1.400 kg is actually 1.408 kg with .08 gr removed.

Thank you

Tony

I maintain an .80 jar of leaven independent of my dough. So, to do so and to build my 1.400 kg starter that I use to build the intermediate starter, the 4.020 kg, I do the following:

- take .14 gr from the jar is that 140g or 14g? if using 'grams' don't use decimal points

- build to .140 gr

- build to 1.408 kg if you use 1400g or 1.400kg the remaining will be 8g/.008kg

- remove .08 gr, clean out the jar, and build to .80 gr for the jar 8g to 80g or 8g to 800g/.800kg or .008 to .080, or .800

- use the remaining 1.400 kg to build my 4.020 kg intermediate starter

- proceed to total dough with walnuts, etc.

The process that I described is exactly how it all happens. I guess the unclarity was I never expained that the 1.400 kg is actually 1.408 kg with .08 gr removed.

Thank you

Tony

[/quote]

Thinking is very important.....

I believe I've got what you're telling me, but your decimals may need some diciplined revising.

see my red text.

Ok, so you do actually cycle your starter through the sourdough and remove it to store. I've got other questions to ask you on the rationale of the method you employ but for now we should deal with documenting your formula and method with the numbers only. Later we can explore a simplification if you wish, but it'd be a suggestion only as I know bakers get accustomed to and have confidence in a method they've been working with for a long time.

Ok, I'll work on it soon and post back.

I maintain an 80 gr jar of leaven independent of my dough. So, to do so and to build my 1.400 kg starter that I use to build the intermediate starter, the 4.020 kg, I do the following:

- take 14 gr from the jar

- build to 140 gr

- build to 1.408 kg

- remove 8 gr, clean out the jar, and build to 80 gr for the jar

- use the remaining 1.400 kg to build my 4.020 kg intermediate starter

- proceed to total dough with walnuts, etc.

The process that I described is exactly how it all happens. I guess the unclarity was I never expained that the 1.400 kg is actually 1.408 kg with 8 gr removed.

FYI Boris, I will try and anticipate one of your questions by letting you know that I don't bake everyday so the 80 gr jar is a culture I keep going in between bakes. This is about to change very shortly and baking bread will be a daily/nightly activity so any simplification of methodology and timing can be helpfull indeed. My only concern with changing procedure is the pontential change in flavour.

Cheers,

Tony

Cheers,

Tony

Sourdough leaven content ~ 31%

% Wt.

- Flour ( 87 6.288 )

- Whole wheatmeal ( 13 .940 ) 100

- water +/- 81 5.855
- salt 2.3 .166
- walnuts 18 1.301

Total DY 201.3 14.550Detailed Formula:

Stage 1 Sourdough % Wt.

starter 20 .014

- flour/meal 100 .070
- water 80 .056

Total DY 200 .140Time 12 hrs

Stage 2 Sourdough % Wt.

stage 1 .140

- flour 76.5 .488 )

- meal 23.5 .150 ) 100

- water 98.74 .630

Total DY 200 1.408 (remove .008 for new starter)Time 12 hrs

Stage 3 Sourdough % Wt.

stage 2 1.400

- flour l 100 1.534

- water 70.8 1.086

Total DY 170.8 4.020Time 2 - 4 hrs

Sourdough leaven Bread dough Wt.

13% Meal/87% flour

- Sourdough leaven 4.020
- Whole wheatmeal .790
- white flour 4.196
- water +/- 4.083
- salt .166
- walnuts 1.301

Total DY 14.556Time 3 hrs

I would remove the starter from the third stage and make it the same amount that was used at the start. As well as this I'd round up and down some of those odd percentages. In the interest of practicality it's easier to have round numbers even with the water but you can still vary the water on the basis of the absorption ability of each batch of flour. There's still a discrepancy due to way the starter is added and removed in different quantities. It's a negligible amount but it really should be balanced.

Check it carefully in case I've missed something. Have you tried making it with a 2 stage or a single stage process? I'd be interested to see if you notice a marked difference if it was a blind test.

Cheers,

Tony

In the first stage you used .014 of starter; but you remove .008 at the completion of stage 2. Really you should remove .014 at the completion of stage 3 because that 's the end of your sourdough. Stage 3 goes from 4.020 to 4.006. See below;

[edit] just to tidy up

Sourdough flour ~ 31% of total = 2.240 DY 183.6

Stage 1 Sourdough % Wt.

starter* 20 .014

- flour/meal 100 .070
- water 80 .056

Total DY 180 .140Time 12 hrs

Stage 2 Sourdough % Wt.

stage 1 .140

- flour 77 .489 )

- meal 23 .146 ) 100

- water 100 .635

Total DY 200 1.410Time 12 hrs

Stage 3 Sourdough % Wt.

stage 2 1.410

- flour l 100 1.534

- water 71 1.089

Total DY 171 4.019 *(removed .014 to be new starter)Time 2 - 4 hrs

After that it becomes bread dough. Doing this will remove any mathematical discrepancy, and it will ensure the piece removed has the most and best flora representation of your entire sourdough.

Good luck, and let us know how this goes. I'm keen to know how the whole thing unfolds from the process to the final product evaluation. Pictures are always good too.

You're referring to the formula at the top of this thread. It's really nothing special, that's why it's a good one because it includes the basics of sourdough bread. However, the hydration is up to you. If you wish to use a sourdough with a dough yield (DY) of 200 which means 100% water then that's fine. But if you wish to maintain the original final bread dough DY hydration you need to realise that the extra 45% you added to your sougdough comes out of the

base formula. This means at the dough stage water will be reduced to stay within the approximate base formula hydration.Of course it'll change the bread character slightly but you may prefer it that way; so give it a go.

Good luck, and let us know how this goes. I'm keen to know how the whole thing unfolds from the process to the final product evaluation. Pictures are always good too.

[/quote]

Hey Boris, I've been experimenting with this and have tried the two stage you suggested and am pleased with the outcome. It's made my life a little easier without any down side regarding quality. The picture in the "slashed breads" thread is one of the breads made this new way. The flavour is lactically deeper, which I like. I've essentially lengthened the fermentaion time because I bulk ferment a bigger portion of the levain for longer. All in all, very pleased. I also use your baker's percentages tutorial all the time and am quite gratefull for your efforts and your PATIENCE. You are a great teacher.