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I am an apprentice (with a small ‘a’) in southern Tasmania (43 and a bit degrees south). I’ve been trying to make good sourdough for a long time and am having a real problem with crumb (crusts are sensational, as is flavour). My crumb is generally tight (except for very wet ciabattas) and damp, even though my probe thermometer says the internal temp is up to 93 degrees C coming out of the oven.
I’ve tried recipes and formulas from all the web sites/books you can think of and continue to have the same problem. I’m beginning to wonder if my frig is colder than what others use (it’s right on 4.5 degrees C which is what some of the gurus suggest) but our ambient temperature is often a lot colder than the mainland. This morning, 14 December, it was 17 in the kitchen (no heater on). As an example, today I took the dough (SourDom’s pane francese 1 – sourdough), retarded overnight, out of the frig around 6am, shaped it and put it back in the frig. I took it out at around midday and it started moving about 5 hours later even with the heater on (room temp 23-25 degrees C) for that period.
I’m just wondering if other’s refrigerators are warmer (thus quicker regaining room temp) or whether my general ambient temp (without a heater on – which I can’t and don’t always want) is only good for very, very, very slow proofing?
Maybe I should just watch it until it reaches a certain level of rise? But what percentage of rise? 1 ½ or double?
Because so many recipes are didactic regarding how much time you should leave a proving loaf at room temp before baking I suspect mine have all been underproved (a lot).
Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.
With thanks
cate
Replies
Hi Cate. Personally i like temperature to be at least 8C for slow fermentation methods. Anything lower, particularly refrigeration around 4C, seems too slow although there is fun to be had playing with the cooling down and warming up period from ambient to fridge and back to ambient. The 'variable in-between' zones, say 6C to 18C, provide variations in temp that influence flavour, colour and texture of bread in a way that a fixed temperature can not provide.
Recently I started playing with 'hot' (lactic) temps of 27C to 33C for production of the final starter. My stage 1 starter is still kept at lower ambient (Tasmanian) temperatures of around 6C to 18C (I have an insulated shipping container that holds the cool night air for most of the day). The final dough generally runs at 20C to 25C, with the ideal ambient room temp for scaling/shaping/proving sourdough in my case being 21.5C.
Back to your question, I think that it is impossible to give a didactic time-based recipe for sourdough that is proven in the very enjoyable, in-between temperature zones, unless the temp is fixed or graduated like in a retarder/prover. Very low temps, such as 2C, hold the dough in a state of hibernation which is used industrially to hold dough fairly statice for days or weeks, allowing it to be baked on demand. The bread I have seen from this process doesn't look appealing!
Graham
Hi Graham,
I have thought about your words and have a couple of queries:
How do you manage to obtain those temps you mention in Tasmania (especially your lactic temps)? Are you using a light box or similar?
What method do you use to be sure your bulk fermentation is ready for the next step?
Do you use refrigeration at all or purely ambient temps? That would be quite difficult in Tas in the heat of mid summer.
Many thanks for your reply and I hope you have time to fill in my gaps.
Cate
Temperatures are variable depending on the season , at least that is what I think. Anyway anyone know where I can get some good prices on quality on the internet or by home order?
Cate, lately I've been proving my sourdough in a cool-room over night, where the temperature can vary from 0C to 6C. The cool-room I use however is quite humid, which may make some difference. If you bulk prove your dough at around 23 - 25C for 4 - 5 hours, retard for 10 hours in the fridge (cover with a plastic bag to retain humidity) then allow it to come back to room temperature (1 - 2 hours at ambient 17C) it should be fully proved and ready to bake.
I think the key for you would be ensuring that you use a higher temperature water when you are mixing the dough so that you end up with a finished dough temperature of around 25C (and actually to compensate for the low ambient 17C you could go as high as 30 - 34C).
Hope that helps..
LG has some great products , even if they hiccup once in a while, no one can beat their low price and great quality. Was searching for and saw that even the parts for LG appliances are so much cheaper even from the LG factory.
I have had a lot better loaves - in fact some quite splendid - since summer arrived in Tas and so I guess temperature is one of the key factors. I didn't realise you could use such warm water to mix the dough so once the Tas temp starts dropping I'll up the water temp as you suggest and check the dough temp. I'll try several experiments with temperature and see how I go over winter. I've also noticed that my starter, which is normally highly active, is so active in summer I can't leave it out of the frig for long without it bubbling over the top of the jar. So I've reduced the hydration a little (100% to 80%) and that seems to have sorted that problem. It might have to go back to 100% in winter. (I don't understand the chemistry of all of that but read it somewhere and it seems to work).
Many thanks for extremely helpful comments.
The higher the hydration of your starter, the sooner your starter will double. The yeast has more mobility in a loose starter and will feed faster. Lowering the hydration level is one way to slow down your starter as is adding a very small amount of salt. Lowering the temperature is the third method that you can slow down your starter.
Which is the better path to travel here? At 100% my starter wants to crawl out of it's jar even in a not-so-cold frig (about 7-8C). It's relatively dormant in the colder frig (less than 4C) but also takes a long time to re-activate. At 80% I can happily keep it in the warmer frig for 4/5 days when it will be nice and bubbly and have risen but not over the top. It seems to be an ambient temp problem as much as a frig problem - especially in winter when getting a really cold starter back to life is difficult.
Guess my basic question is what is better for breadmaking and the chemistry and structure of the bread? Or doesn't it matter?
Thank you again PG for your advice.
Cate, since my first post in this topic we have started a bakery. At first the bakery didn't have a coolroom and we used only ambient temps. Two weeks ago a coolroom was installed and now, in the heat of Summer, our bread is proven at coolroom temps (1C to 6C...a wide range...but that is how the frige engineer set it up) overnight. I suppose this is much like sourfish above, with a bulk proof at room temp, forming loaves, coolroom overnight, then remove from coolroom for a couple of hours prior to baking.
As the weather cools we plan to use a purpose built room ventilated with cold night air. I've always liked the idea of a 'cool closet' for proving, rather than using refrigeration. We should be able to use night air for about 8 months of the year.
You asked about maintaining the lactic temps...i simply make the final starters using warm water (currently using a jug, but soon to use a stainless solar hot water system) and place the starter beside the wood fired oven. It doesn't worry me if they start in the warm range and then cool down. I prefer the starter to cool before adding it to the dough...which is already 90% mixed.
Graham
Graham, thanks for this reply. I've been using warm water for my starter builds for some time (only in cold weather) but didn't realise I could use temps up to 30+ degrees for the dough. My dough water has probably been about 25 degrees or less. Have you/do you use such temps for your doughs in cold weather or is the bakery so warm it isn't a problem? If the latter, and if you were me in a cool house - not cold enough for lighting the fire - would you simply let it prove for a very long time (bulk stage) or, as I have been doing, let it prove for a few hours (around 3) then put it in the frig. Out of frig about 6 hours later and fold at hourly intervals about 3-4 times (depending on its activity/strength), shape and back into frig overnight?
This is really a winter question as I've had no problems in summer.
I doubt it is the fridge that is causing you trouble. It sounds like it would make sense due to the differences in temperature but I used my mini fridge for cooling and the sourdough is delicious! Maybe my mini fridge is just really effective but I doubt that was your problem.
Hi Larryjensen13,
Thanks for the contribution. Since that post, and much reading and learning, I'm producing splendid loaves that everyone admires and loves. The problem was the actual recipes I was using and the techniques I religiously followed. Now I use an adapted version of J. Hammelman's recipes - kind of twisted to suit this climate, to increase hydration somewhat, to up the percentage of starter a little, and to be absolutely sure my starter is brimming with energy prior to using it. That combined with warmer water all round in winter months has me baking very happily with nice holey, chewy, crunchy, tasty variations on a theme (mostly plain, rosemary, olive and garlic).
I think there is problem in your refrigerator. Better to use good refrigerators like whirlpool refrigerators, LG refrigerators. It will really solve your problem.Hope you will make good sourdough.
If you have trouble with your refrigerator maybe you should try to replace some old parts with the Sears parts that have a great guarantee and they have high quality .