Let's get a real bread movement going in Australia, for once and all focus on real bread, real craftsmen/women and not chemical bread and bucket bakers.
http://www.sustainweb.org/realbread/what_is_real_bread/
What is Real Bread?
Real Bread is nothing fancy and has nothing to hide.
And by bread, we mean crusty baps, sourdough, bagels, bialys, injera, khobez, cottage loaves, baguettes, chleb, naan, chapattis, roti, hard dough, stottie cakes, lavash, ruisleipä, ciabatta, bara brith, Staffordshire oatcakes, bannocks, tortillas, paratha, porotta, pitta, pida …the list goes on.
Real Bread basics
Everyone will have his or her own idea of what constitues real bread. The Campaign believes that the only essential ingredients of bread are:
Flour
Water
Yeast - cultured or naturally occurring (as in sourdough), though some flatbreads don't even need yeast
Salt
This is our definition of basic Real Bread that is accessible to all.
Additional ingredients are great as long as they are natural (e.g. seeds, nuts, cheese, herbs, oils, fats and dried fruits) and contain no artificial additives.
What Real Bread isn't
If you add anything but salt to butter, you have to call it something else; if you add anything at all to milk, it's no longer milk. So why does similar legal protection not apply to that other staple food: bread?
The making of what we call Real Bread does not involve the use of any processing aids, artificial additives, flour 'improvers', dough conditioners, preservatives, chemical leavening or, well, artificial anything.
Which is more than can be said for many of the products out there that are marketed as bread.
E481 (sodium stearoyl-2-lactylate), E472e (mono- and diacetyl tartaric acid esters of mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids), E920 (l-cysteine), E282 (calcium propionate), E220 (potassium sorbate), E300 (ascorbic acid), E260 (acetic acid) soya flour, vegetable fat and dextrose are just some of the other things that you might find in an industrial loaf.
What’s more, its production also could have substances including phospholipase, fungal alpha amylase, transglutaminase, xylanase, maltogenic amylase, hemicellulase, oxidase, peptidase and protease but legally, the manufacturer wouldn’t have to declare so on the label.
This could apply to a wrapped/sliced factory loaf or one from a supermarket in-store bakery. The latter does not even have to have an ingredients label to help you make an informed choice.
See our bread labelling page for more.
Better bred bread
Beyond our basic defintion, we're finding ways to make bread better for us, better for our communities and better for the planet. These include:
Bulk fermentation of at least four hours, preferably in the presence of sourdough bacteria
Using not only roller-milled white flour*
Made in one continuous process i.e. no part-baking or freezing of the dough
Made using at least 20% (by weight) locally** milled flour
Has a salt content in line with FSA guidance - 1% or less of final product weight
Product is certified organic
* e.g all flour is stoneground, or all flour is over 80% extraction rate, or bread is made using at least 50% (by weight) wholemeal flour.
** In accordance with FARMA guidelines ‘A definition of 30 miles is ideal, up to 50 miles is acceptable for larger cities and coastal or remote towns and villages.’
Read more
What is the Real Bread Campaign?
Aims of the Real Bread Campaign
Why Real Bread?
Fighting for a return to Real Bread that is good for you, your community and our planet.
Background to the campaign
Background to the Real Bread Campaign
Replies
so who are you really, "Stefen Tradtion" ?? Time to come clean?
Odd that you and JohnD are such doppelgangers in every way, even down to the same tortured grammar and spelling, and that JohnD is currently based in the UK...
[quote=Kymh]
so who are you really, "Stefen Tradtion" ?? Time to come clean?
Odd that you and JohnD are such doppelgangers in every way, even down to the same tortured grammar and spelling, and that JohnD is currently based in the UK...
[/quote]
Just like you are entitled to your opinion, everyone else is alowed to voice theirs. I am in favour of people wanting to make things better. By better, I mean bringing it back to it's basic form. I don't buy or eat wonder bread ( I have worked in a bread factory, I know what goes in it. Lots of preservatives, including AA and sugar. )
So giving people a hard time for voicing their concerns for your health and everyone else's is counter productive.
I make bread for a living. I use ascorbic acid. If it was up to me, it would not be in the bread I make. Not because I think it is unhealthy, but because it is doing for me what I should be able to accomplish without it as a skilled baker.
Do my customers know we use AA? It's posted for everyone to see. Do they care? Probably not. They have better things to worry about.
Just my opinion.
I have no issues at all with artisan bread bakers establishing and promoting standards - in fact if you look in the other thread running on this, you'll see that's exactly what I suggested (and lo and behold, 10 minutes later this thread appears, LOL!).
My concern here is purely what I see as being the possible subterfuge of this person, who I suspect to be posting not under his real name, but under a false identity, something which he created to supposedly bolster his case in another thread. It's something which can be sorted in a second - but if not, why would anyone take such a campaign seriously if it's based on false pretenses?
Just like Real Sourdough and not false 'faux' sourdough,
I am Stefan in Melbourne, as said soooo many time earlier Kym if you want to meet me, I am happy to meet up, otherside shut up with this rant that I am someone else and not real.
Stefen or Stefan?
Real people get their own name right, John (or is that Jon?)....
Bit cheeky of me spelling my name as Stefan, you took a bit longer to pick it up than I thought, wanted to see if you are playing the man or the ball, The ball here is the issue of Read Bread, not me. Anyway at least you acted like the text book attack that you have launched on myself.
I am not no charatan, my only crime is wanting real labelling laws, truthfull labelling laws for those of us that back real bread and for the wider food industry that produces real non-bartardised food.
In peace StefEn.
Yes it is time for the baking industry in Australia to come clean,
time to acknowledge the sourdough is THE REAL BREAD WEB site states:
http://www.sustainweb.org/realbread/what_is_real_bread/
Real Bread basics
Everyone will have his or her own idea of what constitues real bread. The Campaign believes that the only essential ingredients of bread are:
Flour
Water
Yeast - cultured or naturally occurring (as in sourdough), though some flatbreads don't even need yeast
Salt
This is our definition of basic Real Bread that is accessible to all.
Additional ingredients are great as long as they are natural (e.g. seeds, nuts, cheese, herbs, oils, fats and dried fruits) and contain no artificial additives.
As said in an earlier posting, let me know where you work and I will call in and visit. Currently I am based in Melbourne.
It might be a British campaign but I personally see no reason not to bring this to Australia, why stop at Britian & Australia let us make this a global campaign.
...so people have a right to know who you are and where you're coming from, whether you're for real, or just someone anonymous posting under a pseudonym for whatever reason.
You claim to be a Melbourne baker, so what's your bakery, or who do you work for?
As for making this a global campaign... yet more ineffective seat of the pants strategy? Did you do the British instigators of this campaign the courtesy of asking them to "take it global", or is it just the same tin pot banging which has been going on for decades?
Like I said three times...
If you tell me where you work I'll come and introduce myself? Rising for the third time, yes I am Stefen and not John, yes I am in Melbourne.
At your insistance, let's not take the British Campaign Global. Let's start a fresh one in AUstralia then we can do with it as we wish and can take it global.
You want us to have a voice then you do not want us to have a voice?
What is it that you want?
would you come to my place of work? You're not welcome at my business.
The point is your bona fides, and again you avoid the simplicity of establishing those, which is very telling.
You can be whoever you want on the internet, but I'm not going to take anyone seriously who says "follow me" and then refuses to say who they are.
Well who the is Kym....? Who is Geroge Washington... ??
Who are all the AA using bakers??
All this for honest labelling and point of sale marketing.
...but George Washington is dead.
Sadly your evasion is well and truly alive.
Simple question; simple answer, Stefen/Stefan/John/Jon/???
Then again, sometimes "no answer" tells most of all.
Have just I stumbled across the seeds of an Aussie campaign for Real Bread, or campaign for real people? Weird.
Chris here. I co-ordinate the Real Bread Campaign over t'other side of the planet from you chaps, and wrote all of the text that Stefen/Stefan cut'n'pasted in full above - complete with my spelling mistakes, and even down to the (here-orphaned) links at the bottom...
For my two penn'th, I reckon you need to create your own Real Bread Campaign, rather than simply copying ours. We're more than happy to share with you anything that might be of use - fair do's, since you keep sending wave after wave of the Melburnian mafia (John Downes, Dan Lepard, Paul Merry etc.) our way to help remind us poms of many things we forgot about baking, especially in the Chorleywood years. But you chaps and chapesses are in a far better position that us to come up with the most appropriate plan for the land of Oz.
All of the Aussies who’ve contacted me asking to join our campaign or for advice on starting one, I’ve pointed to our to our Facebook wall, Twitter feed, and this here forum to rally an Anzac army.
One final thought – do you really think that John D is the sort of bloke who’d pretend to be someone else?
Well, onya, sourdough companions, toodle pip.
News travels fast, eh?
Bit of an embarrassment, that "Stefen" should leap in and appropriate the UK campaign without a word to them.
Wonder who tipped them off...?? hehehe
Fantastic for all, let's mobilise the masses for REAL FOOD...!
I don't find it an embarrassement - proposing a Real Bread Campaign is a principle that you're obviously quite threatened by ...
You have missed the point completely. This character "Stefen/Stefan" who is obviously not who he says he is (who doesn't know how to spell their own name?), has, without any kind of permission, cut and pasted large sections out of the British Real Bread campaign, and as you can see from Chris's very polite message above, got a bit up their nose. And rightly so. The British Campaign is a well thought out one, with the backing of some weighty contributors, and to have some charlatan pinch their idea can only irritate them.
Your comment that I am threatened by this campaign is the complete opposite of the truth, as you would have discovered if you read what I have said both in this thread and in the other long running thread. In fact this thread was created as a result of my suggestion that Australian artisan bakers should have established some sort of industry standards body long ago. The difference in opinion is that I believe it should be done with some planning and forethought, not as an off the cuff reaction to a forum barney.
Hmmm seem to remember that I started this REAL BREAD thread? Not that my ego needs petting, all praise to John D really started this whole conversation years ago, now lets get some traction on truth in labelling and standards.
'Why are people so afraid of the truth?'
Hi All.
There is potential for the Artisan Baker Association to become or compliment a real bread campaign in Australia. The ABA concept is that artisan bakers are capable of promoting their bread in a genuine way, without a formal policing body. It has been largely successful, with the major stumbling block being ascorbic acid (most Austraila artisan bakers recognise that it is an additive, but a few remain who would rather not explain it to their customers this way).
We need to take ABA to the next level and see a recognisable standard being used on good bread. There is still provision for artisan bakers to use 'soft' additives like ascorbic acid or gluten, however this bread is distinguished in ABA standards as 'technical artisan' (we thought that the term 'industrial' was too heavy for these additives, when you consider the type of additives that larger scale industrial bakers use).
The operator of Sourdough Companion (Artisan Baker Trust) is also the manager of the ABA. Please let us know of any suggestions or if you can help get the ABA standards more active in the real world.
Graham
Hi Graham
Any industry body takes a lot of sweat blood and tears to get off the ground, and I'm sure that the fact the ABA has survived this long is a credit to the hard work of those who founded it.
The problem is that, apart from this excellent web site, I see no evidence of its existence - either in the businesses which belong to it, or in the media defending "real bread". The ABA is a terrific platform on which to build, but from where I sit (ie, as a consumer) the rest of the world is passing it by. I actually bought a thing called a "sourdough baguette" in a Woolworths supermarket (I know, I know, pleading temporary insanity yr 'onour), and by no stretch of the imagination was it real sourdough. I can't see why this situation has been allowed to happen.
The AA issue is such a red herring, so non-central, that I really wonder why anyone would allow themselves to be waylaid by it - artisan bakers are making fantastic, world-standard bread, and some are doing it with AA and others without. The real issue is that anyone who walks into an ABA-accredited bakery can be confident of real quality, real bread. Sadly, the brand has been badly tarnished, and unfortunately, by their inaction, artisan breadmakers are partly responsible for allowing it to happen, as I see it.
Kym.
Am so happy that we now have this debate. Am I embarrassed...?? No, all this noise finally has the dedate gaining some coverage, perhaps the means justify's the end..?? or that the the other way around.
Yes I cut and paste from the Real Bread Campaign web page just in case someone's browser could not pick it up or was highjacked to a weird site, I also included the link so people could go and see it for themselves.
Yes we have needed this discussion for years, it has been stymied and often quashed by powerful vested interests, I am so glad that now it is getting some traction and one hopes that ABA takes up the cause along with the mainstream baking industry and that at last we get standards and truth in labelling and advertising.
In the mean time I will continue to bake REAL BREAD Real Soughdough and quietly push the fight for proper regualtions for once and all. Yes I am Stefen and yes I am real, many in the inustry know me and my customer's love me, but alas I am not a trendy bucket baking artisan media darling, and intend to remain that way.
REAL BREAD, REAL FOOD for REAL PEOPLE.
One other thing in the way of a standard is that artisan bakers generally like to feel completely autonomous. By this I mean that as an artisan, as a creator who is proud of your work, you are your own standard. Who needs anyone else?
Every baker knows the feeling of pulling amazing bread out of the oven and watching friends or customers go crazy with desire for your creation. It gives you a mini god-complex...who needs an external standard if everyone is telling you your existing standard is just fine?
The best bakers are perpetually critical of themselves and their creations and remain humble around so much praise. I see the introduction of a standard as a progression on being self-critical and setting a level playing field, a base to grow on and give a clearer space for self-criticism. It obviously also helps helps everyone, baker and consumer, assess external criticism.
Kym I agree with your AA comment...we are spending way too much time on it. It is not really the AA as an additive at stake, rather the attitude of the baker towards the breadmaking as an artisan process rather than an industrial process (particularly in regards to fermentation). In this case AA is being used as a convenient line that separates the two processes...but we could draw the line using other additives or processes.
Yes, that says it all, doesn't it!
I can just imagine you enjoying being a mini-deity in paradise (Tas!) - must be a satisfying lifestyle. : ))
I often think, when I take so much delight from a little loaf of bread which has cost around a dollar, either that it's very cheap pleasure... or that I should get a life...
Looking in from the outside, seems to me the AA debate has done a lot of needless damage and diverted resources, and pulled the focus away from what's important. I'm sure the wine industry has similar potential controversies, but they seem to have organised a lot better, and are perhaps reaping the benefits - OK, feel free to criticise that analogy, as I know the Australian industry has had to deal with a lot of issues. Perhaps I should broaden the field of view to include winemakers in other countries, eg appellation controlée in France for example.
I'm talking about broad principles of course, wouldn't want to become bogged down in the shortcomings of the wine industry bodies or cheese or whatever. I would have thought there was a real benefit to be had, even for fiercely independent artisan bakers, with a scheme which is effective and takes into account the differing philosophies and practices of individuals. From what I read, it's not an easy field to be in, and anything which might bring greater respect, recognition, and perhaps even higher margins must be worth pursuing, surely?
Amen..! Although we need a standard that acknowledges Real Sourdough non barstardised bread as NUMBER ONE.. We need a standard that recognises the difference between bakers and the product they bake.
Those who can and do bake 'pure-real' soughdough from just water-organic flour-salt-levain need to be distinguished from those who put some kind of modern chemical bread enhancer/additive into their bread.
Pure and SImple: We need truth in advertising. point of sale information, ingredient lists and labelling laws.
ABA needs to stand firm on real bread standards and labelling.
Pitty we cannot get all the bread stanards enacted in legislation, perhaps that is the answer? If industry is not capable of setting standards.
One Divide - Two Sides
Traditional Bakers ------------------------------------------
REAL BREAD - REAL SOURDOUGH
Water-Orangic Flour- Sea/River Salt - Levain
Modern Bakers --------------------------------------------
Faux Sourdough and any other number of modern versions of bread with the inclusion of any number of modern chemcials or even just one.
_________________________________________
NB. Hesitate to use the word Artisan Bakers, because in one sense all bakers who use their hands are artisans.
All one wants is honesty and integrity in the industry, is that too much to ask for in the modern age?
HONESTY ...! ( and to think that some find this stance offensive??)
You seem to think it's a joke to come into this gentle forum, and make the deeply offensive suggestion that all who disagree with your extreme polemic, are being dishonest.
The only dishonesty I see in any of this is your own intellectual dishonesty in claiming things which are clearly not true.
I'm sure the wine industry has similar potential controversies, but they seem to have organised a lot better, and are perhaps reaping the benefits
Here's a perfect example of why I like to know what's in the food I eat and the wine I drink. I can barely drink red wine anymore and I dislike white. So recently I heard that some wineries are using this new yeast/bacteria to ferment their wines. The advantages to this new combination is that it prevents red wine from producing the histamines that I can no longer tolerate. But I have no way of knowing which red wine I would like to buy. I'm sure that the wineries who use this new yeast/bacteria combo are afraid to inform the customer; I recently told some people and they recoiled in horror at the genetic splicing involved. But I want to know so that I could buy the wine. I want to drink red wine!! Tell me who you are. Similarily, tell me that you are using AA so that I don't eat a chemical that I don't want to eat. Just tell us, damn it. Everybody, tell us. Cheers.
Because I for one would like to be able to choose bread made without AA, without having to ask about it. It's one thing to say "it's no secret' and "we'll happily tell people it's in there". But if you were a baker who put AA in bread, and you fiercely believed that the benefits to the baker/customer (less inconsistency in the final loaves) translated to what you were sure customers wanted, then really you should be proudly saying stuff like:
"Here we add AA to our sourdough. Its true that a lot of artisan bakers don't, and it's not really a traditional ingredient in sourdough, not actually necessary. But what it does is mean that given the variations you get in (particularly) organic flours, there is less chance that the dough will go sloppy and give a poor rise, and in a commercial bakery where we want to give you the most consistent sourdough we can, we think it's a worthwhile compromise. We basically use it as a dough conditioner. After all it's pretty much vitamin C. You can buy AA free SD elsewhere, but we are sure that you will appreciate the greater consistency of rise in our breads."
The extent to which any bakery that used AA didn't want to proudly shout stuff like that out from the rooftops (as opposed to "not keep it a secret"), is the extent to which they would rather that people were under the impression that the product was purely flour, salt, water (& culture), unless of course they ask.
Because I think that a lot of people buy sourdough not just because of the consistency of the final product, but often more because of the relative purity of the process. A functional mug can be made by a potter either by them throwing it on a wheel and judging the shape by eye and feel and long expereience and maybe some rudimentary caliper measurements, or by them slip-casting it. Or perhaps a closer analogy, by bascially throwing and then using an acrylic outline template to make the final output "consistent". They're all pots made by "Joe Bloggs, artisan potter"; I know which I'd rather buy. Give me rustic and perhaps a teensy bit inconsistent, any day.
Here, Here Pavino & Davo...
Bravo...!!
Amen....!
Sourdough is, & has been for 4000yrs: Water-Four-Salt-Levain
Agreed, many of us have said this and campaigned for years
Sourdough is very simple
Water
Flour
Salt
Levain
Anything else in bread is simply a modern chemicalised bread and therefore not Soughdough by any definition.
TASTE & *LOOKS* TEST (now who's a sexy loaf..??)
Interesting to note that recently along with some colleagues (baker's/business owner's) from the Natural Real Bread side of the argument, we went out on a road trip in and around Melbourne and bought a number of loaves from various Artisan Sourghdough bakeries that contained AA but no point of sale material or word from the shop assistant's stated that, nor did any labeling. We also bought some natural sourdough loaves for comparison.
When we did a crust/crumb/flavour test and sampling with a comparison bake against bread made from only Water - Organic Flour - Sea Salt - Levain, the taste difference was very noticable, interestingly out of the assembled loaves the two that had the highest spring/kick and deepest carmalisation and best rust & crumb structure was the Natural Sourdough, as well as teh one and two in terms of taste and texture. We also conducted some blind tests and the results once again gave the tumbs up to the natural loaves. One of the loaves from an 'alledged' top bakery was 'crap' in every way, actually it was an insult to all baker's to call it an artisan loaf. ( & no it was not a one off, they had many of the same looking loaf ) When we told some of the people that took part in the blind testing where some of the loaves come from we nearly had fainting 'foodies', luckily we had great cheese and bread on hand to revive them.
We have bought some bread from Artisan Bakeries that clearly label/advertise the fact that they do use AA, and we respect them for the honesty in advertising. As for the other's let them be judged by their own action's or lack thereof. All deception comes at a price.
Geez Stefan/Stefen/John - not only are you replying to your own posts, you're repeating the same dodgy posts in different threads. Give it a rest mate. Nobody's interested in your religious campaign - most of us are just here to learn more about making great sourdough.
Yes, let's all learn about making great SOUGHDOUGH.. REAL BREAD... the way our ancestor's have made it for 4000 years: Flour - Water - Salt - Levain.
An all time favourite! A great REAL BREAD book to read and have in one's library is 'The Village Baker: Classic Regional Breads from Europe and America' by Joe Ortiz. A book that one could attribute to the revival of Real baking in America and the broader western world. The Village Baker captures the essence of the craft of baking.
Another great book, especially for home bakers of real bread Classic Sourdoughs by Ed and Jean Wood. They also have an intesting web site.
" ... most of us are just here to learn more about making great sourdough.
I'm learning lots from this and the AA thread ...
Interesting to see so many people that feel threatened by REAL FOOD, REAL BREAD and Honesty and Integrity in the food/baking industry.
Imagine how wonderful it would be if we went back to family-village-community baking model, taking charge of how we bake, cook, and what we eat. Learning is living actively...!! bake well..break bread with loved one's and share the spirit of the metaphor of REAL FOOD - REAL BREAD... Shalom Stefen.
'panfresca" was posting recently as 'KymH'
Whilst Stefen is Stefen, JohnD is JohnD and Davo is Davo.
Hi all,
Zoe here from the National Baking Industry Association of Australia.
Have been in contact with Chris from the Real Bread Campaign in the UK & he suggested that I post here about some of our initiatives we're currently running.
1. NBIA's Baking Seal of Excellence (http://www.bakingsealofexcellence.org.au/)
NBIA has introduced the Baking Seal of Excellence to uphold and honour the fine baking traditions and produce items that have been largely hand-crafted with special attention to natural, quality ingredients, traditional processes and a return to the fundamentals of age-old skills in Australia. To mark them as baking businesses of note and make them more readily identifiable to consumers, the Association has created a mark of excellence - the NBIA Baking Seal of Excellence.Check out the website for full criteria & details.
2. Not All Bread is Created Equal Campaign (http://www.nbia.org.au/news.htm)
The National Baking Industry Association (NBIA) has launched a consumer campaign to highlight those bakers who create fresh bread from scratch on site every day.
The Not all bread is created equal campaign is particularly pertinent to consumers who might be confused about the freshness of bread sold by supermarkets for $1 a loaf, says NBIA General Manager Paul McDonald.More details will be on the website soon, bakers are encouraged to display the posters in their shops (FREE for members & $5 for non-members)...
Hope this is helpful & please contact me via [email protected] if you would like more information, have a lovely day.
Zoe
Zoe, thank you, your post has made it an even more beautiful day!
Great to see the arrival and follow up from the mainstream baking association, National Baking Industry Association of Australia, our professional national body! Let's hope that the new standards are enforced and not sold out to the lobby of the bigger/chemical end of the baking industry.
Once again, bravo !!!
http://sourdough.com/forum/great-new-baking-standard-amen
"the NBIA must state their position on Real Bread and on Sourdough, as well as honest labelling, advertising and ingredient lists. It is a pitty that the baking industry cannot be all inclusive and represented by one organisation. Perhaps we in the REAL Sourdough non additive group need to mobilise and start REAL BREAD AUSTRALIA., it would appear that the chemicalised (industrial & artisan) bread side has all the representation they need. "
Zoe,
1/ Does the NBIA have a stance of REAL BREAD - REL SOURDOUGH - Water - Flour - Salt Levain ?
2/ Will the NBIA institute a standard on such a bread?
3/ What is the NBIA view on protecting the label/use/wordage of 'Sourgdough' ?
Any bread that contains modern bread improvers or modern chemicals of the like, e.g. AA (ascorbic acid), is a modern chemicalised bread and not a Sourdough and NOT REAL BREAD!!
4/ The NBIA has taken a stance on transfats, when will it take the same stance on Modern Chemicalised bread, that is not traditional sourdough and is getting sold as tradional sourdough?