malt flour

Panevino
I have a big bag of low diastatic malt flour and would like to deactivate some of it so I could use it in a different way. Will heating in an oven do the trick? Thanks, Tony
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Millciti's picture
Millciti 2009 March 14
Diastatic malt powder is powdered malted sprouted grain, usually barley, but wheat, and rice may also be malted. Diastatic - refers to the diastatic enzymes that are created as the grain sprouts. These enzymes convert starches to sugars, which your yeasties eat. Maltose, a simple sugar that yeast loves is usually made in abundance by the enzymes. From what I can find I am pretty sure that the enzymes in the diastatic malt are denatured by the use of heat. In one article I read, they mentioned a temperature of above 180F. If you go too high you will brown or burn the malt since it is so high in sugar content. Without the enzymes malt is usually just used as a sweetner. So what are you making with this mysterious ingredient? Terri
davo 2009 March 16
I might have this wrong but I was sure I got told that while commerical yeasts eat the maltose produced by amylase, sourdough yeasts are "maltose negative", and it's the lactobacilli that utilise the maltose, the yeasts in turn metabolising the dead lactobacillus cells.
Panevino 2009 March 15
Thanks Terri. What article did you read? So 180 degrees should give me a deactivated malt and then I could play with caramelization. I use the diastatic malt here and there in my breads as an insurance policy. Just a little mostly and more if the flour requires a boost. But I want some denatured stuff because I want to make a malty bagel and maybe a malty baguette and I don't want to buy another big bag since I already have more then I will need for the next little while. Just playing really. Cheers.
Millciti's picture
Millciti 2009 March 16
In this article they tell how to make diastatic malt from wheat berries and they recommend not heating above 130F to dry the sprouted berries before grinding them. In order to not destroy the enzymes. I sprouted wheat berries this past summer and made a loaf it was very good, totally different flavor. http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisdiastaticmalt.html The other article was for brewing and recommended not heating the mash water above 175 so that you don't destroy the enzymes. But for bagels I have seen both diastatic and non diastatic malt used. I often use a nice bottle of malted ale or lager for pizza dough to replace the malt. Comes out delicious and tastes just amazing, pizza and beer all at once! Have fun, I haven't tried bagels yet. Maybe this summer when I have more time. Davo we might both need the experts to step in here, but I think it is amylase(starch) broken into maltose by the lab and then consumed by the yeast. Make sure you post your efforts Tony! Hey maybe we need to have a bagel bake-off! Terri
davo 2009 March 16
Sorry if this is off-topic, but ... I did a bit of googling and if this is right, it seems that the very reason a sourdough symbiosis works is that the LAB and typical sourdough yeasts don't compete for maltose - the LAB get it, and presumably the yeasts consume the dead LAB cells, so they end up doing OK, but not at the expense of the LAB. As commercial yeast does utilise maltose, maybe that's a very reason why starting a starter with a bit of commercial yeast is a bad idea, not just because it displaces the other sourdough yeasts, but because it functions in a diametrically opposed manner in terms of competition with LAB. Or not(?) Experts please advise (Boris)! http://books.google.com.au/books?id=eZjIfud742wC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=mal...
Danubian's picture
Danubian 2009 April 7

[quote=davo]Sorry if this is off-topic, but ... I did a bit of googling and if this is right, it seems that the very reason a sourdough symbiosis works is that the LAB and typical sourdough yeasts don't compete for maltose - the LAB get it, and presumably the yeasts consume the dead LAB cells, so they end up doing OK, but not at the expense of the LAB. As commercial yeast does utilise maltose, maybe that's a very reason why starting a starter with a bit of commercial yeast is a bad idea, not just because it displaces the other sourdough yeasts, but because it functions in a diametrically opposed manner in terms of competition with LAB.

Or not(?) Experts please advise (Boris)!

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=eZjIfud742wC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=mal...

Dave, I only just came across your post here. I've been a bit busy with other things. Simply, yes, your conclusion is how I understand it from my readings of Kline & Sugihara and Spicher & Stephan. BTW it's a good link. Helpful to have material like that available on the web without a fee.

BTW I'll be in Melbourne on the cane day weekend. I'm hoping to visit a few Melbourne bakeries also.

Panevino 2009 March 16
Thanks. Ive already toasted the malt flour and play around with it. So if the yeasts are maltose negative and the LAB utilize the extra maltose in the dough, why use DM when flours seem sluggish? Is it maybe that not all wild yeasts are maltose negative? Or is that the increase in dead LAB cells provide the extra food that the yeasts can feed on and thereby overcoming any other deficiencies? edited spelling error.
Millciti's picture
Millciti 2009 March 16
About lactic acid fermentation in dough can be found here... http://www.thefreshloaf.com/keyword/lactic-acid-bacteria So this proves that it takes a little bit of a scientific brain to wrap around the biochemistry that is involved in sourdough bread. I am currently in a class that involves the biochemistry of energy production in the human body...(mentioned here) and still struggling with the concepts. So where are those experts when you need them anyway?!! sorry about the previously muddled info. Still wishing I was a better scientist!! Terri
davo 2009 March 17
OK so based on this, the LAB do get the maltose but the benefit is that out of the maltose use comes other sugars that the yeasts prefer. Interesting! Thanks for the link. As the article says this is perhaps why those bugs get along - because they don't compete directly on the main food source. So added malt = more enzyme -> more maltose for the LAB -> more other sugars for the yeasts. Everybody's happy!
Panevino 2009 March 17
Good article. Very clear and concise but it will still be difficult for me to summarize it at the next drunk. To think that I wasted all of those years studying human culture when I could've been studying real culture. Smiling. Cheers.
fluff10 2009 March 23
Hi does anyone know where I can buy malt flour in Melbourne Australia as i cannot find anywhere? Thanks
davo 2009 March 24
http://www.basicingredients.com.au/DiastaticMalt.html I hope there's no issue posting the link to the above supplier. The above will sell and deliver. Also gives a discount on banettons bought in bulk and for several of us who piled in together and bought a box full of cane banettons, he stuck to a pre-quoted price on them even after the dollar plunged just as he made his order - so a good supplier I reckon. I am pretty certain you cannot get distatic malt from a Melbourne retailer. You might want to buy a few 200 g packets or even a kilo (a kilo is enough for 100kg of bread flour - say 160 -170 kg of bread!) to make postage economical - the postage will cost more than one or two packets of the stuff. Even better, lump in with a bunch of friends who bake. Even with the postage its only a few cents worth per loaf. I gather if you freeze it, it will extend the use-by otherwise noted on the packet. Hope this helps...
Millciti's picture
Millciti 2009 March 26
Check out the link that I put into post #4. The instructions don't sound too hard. The wheat that I sprouted this past summer had a pretty good growth in just a few days. I didn't dry my sprouted wheat just ground it in a food processor and added it to a loaf with other fresh wheat flour and a unbleached starter. It was a very interesting and tasty loaf but different than using diastatic malt. [img]http://sourdough.com/gallery2/gallery/d/15080-2/swb3.JPG[/img] Had trouble posting the picture since the posting links are missing. I had to use BBC code. I haven't been able to put a break or a paragraph in a post in over a week either, but Maedi fixed that too. I was trying not to bug Maedi since they are in the middle of reorganizing stuff. But I contacted him and he was kind enough to give me some help. Best Regards, Terri
Danubian's picture
Danubian 2009 April 7

the picture of that loaf, Terri, seems to exhibit a lack of maltose.

I say that beacuse the crust colour appears to be washed out a little. Perhaps it's the photo colour not showing true but it does appear to lack bloom and ovenspring, which among other things are symptoms of a lack of maltose or amylase enzyme activity.

Millciti's picture
Millciti 2009 April 8

I think I see what you mean Boris. I don't believe that I put that much salt in the loaf, which might have contributed to the light color. Or maybe I should have fermented it longer at a cooler temp. I thought it actually had pretty good oven spring for an experiment. And it had an interesting sweetness, for mostly whole grain. Made with only White starter, half sprouted wheat, half fresh coarse ground wheat, water and salt.

But it was last summer, so I'm not sure what exactly I did. There are some other shots in my gallery, all are marked wheat berry, did you look at those? It may have worked better if it had been barley instead of wheat... Although they use both to make diastatic malt. So what might have made it better, should I have sprouted it longer than three days? I still have another bag of wheat to clean and play with this summer.

Terri

Danubian's picture
Danubian 2009 April 11

[quote=Millciti]I think I see what you mean Boris. I don't believe that I put that much salt in the loaf, which might have contributed to the light color. Or maybe I should have fermented it longer at a cooler temp. I thought it actually had pretty good oven spring for an experiment. And it had an interesting sweetness, for mostly whole grain. Made with only White starter, half sprouted wheat, half fresh coarse ground wheat, water and salt.

But it was last summer, so I'm not sure what exactly I did. There are some other shots in my gallery, all are marked wheat berry, did you look at those? It may have worked better if it had been barley instead of wheat... Although they use both to make diastatic malt. So what might have made it better, should I have sprouted it longer than three days? I still have another bag of wheat to clean and play with this summer.

Terri[/quote]

Terri, the influence of salt in bread dough, besides toughening gluten, increasing the ability of the dough to absorb water, and enhancing the natural grain flavour, also controls the rate of fermentation. This controling factor does influence the amount of residual sugar in the dough at the the time of entering the oven. As a lack of salt results in rapid assimilation of maltose, and the presence of salt the opposite, it usually means a reduced crust colour and volume if there's a lack of salt. Residual sugars are caramelised during the baking process which gives us those rich golden brown tones in our bread. Of course these are generalisations which hold true unless other variables are present.

Temperature also influences the rapididity of maltose assimilation but it also affects the doughs ability to flex as the microflora produce gas more rapidly during the early baking stage. Of course there are exceptions but generally warmer wheat doughs exhibit a reduced ability to expand in the oven.

Many of the contributors here are more experienced with homemade malt than I am since I buy malt from a maltser as a final product.

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