Uh-oh, I don't think this was the idea...

I tried to make a rustic looking, unslashed loaf with a 'natural grigne.' However, this was the result. I definitely got the 'volcanic look,' as you so aptly describe it Jeremy (although 'giant crater look' might me a better description).

[img]http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/7871-2/IMG_1875.JPG[/img]

Basically, it rolled open the opposite way that I had shapen it. Kind of logical I suppose. What'd I do wrong?? I let it prove seamside down before placing it seamside up in the oven.

Jake

78 comments

Here's a few of the best loaves from a small group of apprentices.

[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_3010.jpg[/img]

The internal character, crumb.

[img]http://sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/8601-2/IMG_3081.jpg[/img]

[quote="Skua"]O Danubian (deep sigh),

yesterday I tried your volcanic loaf again.With a soaker and all but this was not the point. Well I got bread, but please, no shots here…

[quote="Danubian"]... When it's time for baking, place your hand on the top of the dough piece carefully and up turn your basket. Then gently roll over onto the dusted peel with the seam "down" ...[/quote]

O yeah… nice try… My hands are large, size 8.5 (in professional gloves) and I tried to roll over the 1.5 kg dough (hey you showed a pleasant round “boule”, I made something as a saucer in a basket). All right, 5 fingers stuck deeply in the well hydrated dough. Oh Lord! On the peel… still more flattening, in the superhot well steamed oven… arghs… oh the stone… please give me some spring… no?

Well the inside of my mind depends a lot on the outside of my loafs

:D

. And feeling a bit depressed I gave the loaf only one night after bake to stabilize its crumb. And cut it in the early mornig… Stupido!

Oh no I won’t give up. But on your pictures of your bakery everything looked so damned easy…(lol)[/quote]

Michael, not to worry, however, I tell my apprentices not to use their fingers individually but to use their hands like paddles with their fingers held together, that way they can't indent the dough too severely or puncture it either. Did your dough piece collapse in the basket? Perhaps too much hydration, flour from different mills will exhibit varying water absorption capacity let alone differing ends of the earth! However, if you judge hydration was within tollerance perhaps you're mixing it too much, if the dough seems a little excessively 'creamy'. This also tends to make it unable to cope with handling.

BTW nice pictures too.

This is going to be soooooooo OT, (forgive me, Maedi) but, oh my, Michael, the pix are gorgeous!!! I won't be lying if I say there's nothing beautiful in KL....but good news is we don't have to travel too far up or down or to the east of the peninsula for some nice getaways. We were just up north 300 km plus to Penang island, aka Pearl of the Orient last week. [url=http://www.lensamalaysia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5364]Here's some pix[/url]; you won't find anything other than sourdough in my blog.


O Danubian (deep sigh),

yesterday I tried your volcanic loaf again.With a soaker and all but this was not the point. Well I got bread, but please, no shots here…

[quote="Danubian"]... When it's time for baking, place your hand on the top of the dough piece carefully and up turn your basket. Then gently roll over onto the dusted peel with the seam "down" ...[/quote]

O yeah… nice try… My hands are large, size 8.5 (in professional gloves) and I tried to roll over the 1.5 kg dough (hey you showed a pleasant round “boule”, I made something as a saucer in a basket). All right, 5 fingers stuck deeply in the well hydrated dough. Oh Lord! On the peel… still more flattening, in the superhot well steamed oven… arghs… oh the stone… please give me some spring… no?

Well the inside of my mind depends a lot on the outside of my loafs

:D

. And feeling a bit depressed I gave the loaf only one night after bake to stabilize its crumb. And cut it in the early mornig… Stupido!

Oh no I won’t give up. But on your pictures of your bakery everything looked so damned easy…(lol)

Hi TeckPoh ? it is very pleasing for me to hear lovely compliments about our hills. I really do love them. But we never have any tourism or something like this. And hearing nice words from somebody who lives in a tropical paradise, this is something new. Last Sunday I did a slow ride to shoot some pics and put them here not to spoil the thread:

http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/v/u ... 97c07635e3

I’d really like to see some pics of your countryside, fishing, rice fields, and … I cannot imagine when I really come to think of it

:oops:

. Or do you live in Kuala Lumpur? Could be a nice bike ride too! Hm, let’s study your blog, perhaps I’ll find something you did with your lense.

Hi Jeremy, hey on my bike its only the good old Shimano series, no beauty, Sram is the latest and lightest, nice debut in road biking! But considering you ride a Gios too? There’s nothing better than the real Campa stuff, don' you think so? Only my old fashioned opinion!

Best wishes to all!

Michael


[quote="Danubian"]at [url=http://www.behrs.de/s/index.php?ber=1&lg=][b]Behr's Verlag[/b][/url] the price is a little better 99,50€[/quote]
Boris, Behr's is correct, though it was [url=http://www.abzonline.de/praxis/2006,36,609221062.html]cheaper[/url] at behr's some month ago .., I posted "deutschesfachbuch" cuese of the content so you may check what's new

;)

I've been told Gänzle had changed a lot after Spichers death.

[quote="Skua"]Jeremy,

Don't worry! If we talking about science, a paper is always available in English. Otherwise it is not worth to read it. Scientific BS

:D

only written to enlarge the CV of the writers...This Mister Gänzle has written a lot of papers, some of them are free in full length if you google a bit.

Other question: are scientific papers good for bakers? Mostly sponsored by the industry and not by independ money? The answer could be: yes: because we loose our traditions. Secrets told from the masters to their asssociateds are endangered to vanish.[/quote]

I suppose it depends on your point of view, I find sourdough science interesting and I'm a baker who appreciates wholesome food and the craft of making beautiful bread.

Jeremy,

Don't worry! If we talking about science, a paper is always available in English. Otherwise it is not worth to read it. Scientific BS

:D

only written to enlarge the CV of the writers...This Mister Gänzle has written a lot of papers, some of them are free in full length if you google a bit.

Other question: are scientific papers good for bakers? Mostly sponsored by the industry and not by independ money? The answer could be: yes: because we loose our traditions. Secrets told from the masters to their asssociateds are endangered to vanish.

The best way to retain the old knowledge is perhaps... to travel abroad, to keep in contact and work for a while with real good bakers, to collect old scripts in different languages and becoming a famous baker in your own city, making sourdough addicts wherever you live. You know there are bakers that choosed just this way. Don't laugh: "Bread", the book of this certain New England baker is one of it. (Dan's latest book is the next on my agenda). There will be more bakers writing their books and sharing their experience, I'm sure. Because people won't accept to be fed with dog's cake on the long run.

:D

Michael


[quote]Jeremy, if you continue to read the German baking forum you'll be surprised how much German you'll pick up. Better yet a German girlfriend would do wonders for your German... LOL[/quote]
[/quote]
Boris,
Yeah it isn't so bad, I can get by, it's just the differences I guess in the regional or technical aspect! As for a girlfriend, well I am married, but will be alone this august if any of you frauleins are around Basel! Look me up?!!!!

:lol:

Jeremy

Markus,

That's one I'll have to add to my collection. I must admit I havent visited Behr's webpages for a long time. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Although the page you posted has it for 106.47€, at [url=http://www.behrs.de/s/index.php?ber=1&lg=][b]Behr's Verlag[/b][/url] the price is a little better 99,50€

Jeremy, if you continue to read the German baking forum you'll be surprised how much German you'll pick up. Better yet a German girlfriend would do wonders for your German... LOL

My question, Markus or Michael, when are you guy's going to write a German bread book for us who can't speak the language? I have one book my fathers wife sent me, fairly easy to understand in a bread sort of way, still we need more info!

Jeremy

Danubian, I though of this.. [url=http://www.deutschesfachbuch.de/info/detail.php?isbn=3899471660&word=%22Handbuch+sauerteig%22]6. Auflage von 2006
[/url]

list of [url=http://www.deutschesfachbuch.de/info/detail.php?isbn=3899471660&part=3&word=%22Handbuch+sauerteig%22&PHPSESSID=217808b7849edd8d892530db06bd526f]content[/url]

PROF. DR. MICHAEL G. GÄNZLE and fellows have done phantastic job on discovering the secrets of sourdough microflora

[quote="bianchifan"]Danubian, which edition of "Handbuch Sauerteig" do you have? Newest including additions by M. Gänzle?
I've only seen the first edition long time ago. Could it be interesting for me?[/quote]

[quote="Handbuch Sauerteig"]4. uberarbeitete und erweiterte Auflage 1993 [/quote]

4th Revised and extended edition 1993

Dear Markus,

don't let us crawl too deep in this nonsense. History will laugh on us. Sourdough seems to be older than mankind. There is no need to utter stupid things like wheat sourdough is non-existent. Did you know that we found prehistorical neolithical wheat in China. And millstones too? I think these early homo sapiens had called their sourdough sourdough too..

:lol:

Michael


[size=50](nice try to edit my post

:D

)[/size]


[quote="Skua"]official baker's language means: using the terms of the mighty German baker's guild[/quote]
Whats that?
Cologne guild? You are right! Hamburg? Not. (State march, 2006, last time I've mailed with some guilds)
I think, schools and research cetres are official, too.
Detmold uses "Sauerteig", Weinheim has used "Sauerteige" (embraced wheat for me), Isernhäger (industrial) uses both, i.e. they speak of "Sauerteig", but the products are named "Sauer" to be easy differenced.
Some exponent members of Colone baking guilde doesn't even accept the existance of any sour wheat dough

:cry:

Danubian, which edition of "Handbuch Sauerteig" do you have? Newest including additions by M. Gänzle?
I've only seen the first edition long time ago. Could it be interesting for me?

G'day Michael,

I'm with Jeremy on this, not boring at all. I'm a keen student of Spicher & Stephan, [u]HANDBUCH SAUERTEIG[/u].

I was very keen on the [b]Grundsauer ubernach[/b] and the[b] Vollsauer ubernacht [/b] in a three stage sourdough but now I'm not using this. I tend to use a Detmold single phase with modifications to suit our current flour supply.

Not a bit boring MIchael!
German baking is one of the least understood bread baking methods, and I also agree you can't find a real "artisan" bakery in Germany anymore! On my last visit to my old stomping grounds in Stuttgart I was so disappointed not only in bread but even the food, I couldn't have a currywurst like when I used too! The whole concept of eating in Europe in general has fallen into the dismal Americanized hurried and unimportant style! We rush so much we've forgotten to thank the generations before us for the humble origins and great food traditions, thankfully some people have held on to try to at least keep the flame lit, (sounds like a sermon for slow food!)
Anyway Michael, I appreciate your explaining this tradition and make these words more clear for us non speaking German bread baking enthusiasts, you have a convert!

Thanks,
Jeremy

You're welcome!

[quote="Danubian"]...

G'day Michael, from my understanding "Sauerteig" means "sourdough"!...

[/quote]

G'day Danubian,

... and you could add: for every clear minded human being too!

:geek:

:D

Danubian, you're a well informed observer of German baker's language.

Yes, speaking precisely the starter is called „Anstellgut“.

An old term meaning perhaps an „able good“ or „material to place in“. Who knows the ethymology exactly? From region to region there were other words for it. In the Allgäu near the alps, where Jeremy's father lived it was called „Urhab“. An Aleman expression for „creator“ or „great-grandpa“

"Anstellgut" is a very well defined term. It is the starter. In the following procedure sourdough changes its names...

The refreshing of the starter at different hydrations and temperatures is called „guidance“ of the sourdough. And sourdough changes its name step by step. (Btw: (a proud baker often dislikes the word „feeding“)

A starter at his first refreshment is called „Anfrischsauer“ that means refreshing sour. Simple

;)

Second step: after the second refreshment of the „Anfrischsauer“ it changes to „Grundsauer“, that means something like „basic sour“...

Third step: third refreshment of the now called „Grundsauer“ leads to the „Vollsauer“. I think you may call it full sour, meaning you reached a powerful active sourdough... Put the "Vollsauer" in the fridge und you have "Anstellgut" again.

Still awake or is it too boring? (yawn!)

All right. Now to the point „Sauerteig“ and „Sauer“ These two terms never mean the ready loaf made with sourdough in our language. It always means the living culture speaking more in a scientific language. Sad to say there are only a few real bakers left in our country who are able to make sourdough by themselves. They buy cultures from the industry and trust their claim, that only they could provide them with the most powerful cultures. Not enough they claim a good baker has to throw away his culture after a use of 3 months and has to buy a new one... Claiming nasty bacterias would spoil the dough otherwise. Sad to say most bakers in Germany believe these lies.

So and now to the battle „Sauerteig vs Sauer“. The difference in language should stress: only rye is the real thing. Another nasty lie.

The battle with these terms you can find in reading the small printed notes in German Wikipedia. Very boring stuff.

Sorry for being boring and being bad tempered in the morning

;)

Michael


Danubian,
I thank you for your rye help for my sake, as Michael and friends on the German sites are helpful, but my German is non=existent! I can order food and bier and try to get from point a to b, I left Europe when I was 4.5 years old with French and German tongues losing out to my English in the end!
Thanks!
Jeremy

[quote="Skua"][quote="bianchifan"]...
[quote]The official term for a rye starter is "Sauerteig".[/quote]
What is official?[/quote]

official baker's language means: using the terms of the mighty German baker's guild. Professional language, no.... language is always strange and magic, and laughs about logic and science.

:P

[/quote]

G'day Michael, from my understanding "Sauerteig" means "sourdough"! However, I believe the correct term for "starter" is "anstellgut"? Of course, I'm not questioning your German language knowledge, mine is very poor by comparison but my baking knowledge if reasonably fair.

At any rate, If I'm wrong, I'd welcome correction.

[quote="bianchifan"]...
[quote]The official term for a rye starter is "Sauerteig".[/quote]
What is official?[/quote]

official baker's language means: using the terms of the mighty German baker's guild. Professional language, no.... language is always strange and magic, and laughs about logic and science.

:P


[quote="Jeremy"]some one help me find it![/quote]
take [url=http://www.sourdough.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=524&hilit=]this[/url] for a while

[quote=Skua]Selle Italia SLR Carbonio Kit[/quote]
Auuoohh... SLR

:D

[quote]The official term for a rye starter is "Sauerteig".[/quote]
What is official?

Michael,
Well you beat me at that end! I ride a Gios and a Fuji Team bike Aluminum, some Shimano etc....I did a photo and video shoot of a ride I did across to NJ from NY it is somewhere on this site, some one help me find it!
Are you keeping up with the racing in Europe this year, scandalous!
Jeremy

I did put malt! EEEEK! I also ride a bicycle, what kind do you have?
K-Town, wow I lived in Stuttgart and was born in Karlshrue! Small world!
I have a friend from Aachen on Dans site who translated a formula froma book my Fathers wife sent me of German breads, I guess my sister sent me a vocabulary book for good reason to sharpen up before I go to Schwiez!

Jeremy

New York is fine, just polluted and too crowded!

Hahaha, my little bird... frame is ultra light carbon, very stiff. An F10. It's what the pro tour team Unibet uses. Selle Italia SLR Carbonio Kit. Thompson seat post. Speedplays, Syntace parts. Mavic open pro ceramic (I love them!). Continental force and attack tires. Shimano brakes and gear, total yield 9.9 lb

Cool

[img]http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2088/palzroubaix55rg8.jpg[/img]

Oh, sorry too much OT. This was not the idea.


Michael halo,
What does Skua stand for?
Where are you in Germany?
I think it was one apfel, we make them big her, must be all the hormones

Shocked

I also keep my sauer and sauerteing in the fridge as well! And I have even left mine unfed on vacation for a month and when I returned it was like new just a few feeds!

Tchuss!

Jeremy

Oh come on boy! You are living in the big appel and loving it. What's so wrong about a a good New England Granny Smith? I did two Braeburns in, grown in New Zealand

Wink

. But I prefer the small ones from Japan. Fuji. Sweet but delicious.

hm, hm, hm... this is the point. A rye shouldn't be sticky at all. Too much sugar in dough? Did you throw malt in your rye? A too long bulk time in hot NYC kitchen? With a lot of good cheese and liver pie (how to get this smoky chicken thing

Very Happy

) its not too wrong, but very special.

A Skua is huge see gull, crossing the arctic and antarctic sea. It stands for my second passion: long distance road biking even in icy and stormy weather. I´m living in K-Town.

Cool


In my country only rye sourdough qualifies as sourdough...

Laughing

The official term for a rye starter is "Sauerteig".
The official term for a starter fed with wheat, spelt, barley, oats or anything else is "Sauer"

If you feed your starter only with one kind of grain it develops its very own characteristic flavour. It needs some cycles of feeding for that. This is the reason it could be worthy to "guide" a sourdough (rye) and a levain (wheat).

So I use a rye starter for my everyday mixed flour bread and a wheat starter for my luxury Sunday bread.

Cool

Here they are... [img]http://sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/8293-2/starter.jpg[/img]


Hi Michael,
I also have two starter aka sauer and sauerteig, should get together and talk about some German bread so we could re-introduce it here in America!
Your sauer and sauerteing are very healthy, do you refrigerate them or keep them fed on a regular schedule so you just can bake like that?

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,

I'm quite sure you famous bakers keep the rye alive in the new worlds

Wink

. My Sauer and my Sauerteig will only be fed if I use them. According to Meister Calvel I keep my starter at 8-10 degrees C in the fridge. The yeasts stay healthy at least 1 week.

But sourdough seems to be good in survivaling. Some members in the German forum only use it once in a year

Very Happy

Very Happy

Very Happy

. After a few cycles of feeding everything works fine again.

I always use a simple 3 stage. A good warranty for a well balanced sourdough.

Hey how many apples did you use in your great loaf? (I used 2!)

Michael


[quote]
That was finely sieved rye flour with a relatively low extraction, has a nice colour, although I make this bread with different types also. I think it looks and eats best made with a medium type rye; I can't remember the German "type no." equivalent, perhaps T 850 or as Doughman suggests T 1050.
[/quote]

I used a whole grain levain or sauer or starter? (bread baking has so many terms!
In the dough I used some whole grain rye and the majority light rye as I didn't have any medium, rye sadly is not a popular flour or bread here in America, one of my key contentious issue and persistent b*@ch with bread baker on my blog!
The bread tastes great though somewhat gummy or still a bit sticky in texture, had it with some smoked salmon last night and chopped chicken liver (a Jewish speciality!), when I get a shipment of flour from King Arthur flour I will order some medium rye!
They remind me of a bread I saw in a book from Switzerlands Richemont school.

Jeremy

[quote="Jeremy"]
Danubian,
Very cool, although I didn't let my bread proof as much in fear of having a pancake instead of a beautiful loaf! Do you use a light rye or whole grain rye? As well I wanted to know what is the hydration of your mother starter and is it rye or wheat?
You looking for any bakers?
[/quote]

The amount of proof is difficult to gage and experience is the best teacher. I've made plenty of pancakes too!
That was finely sieved rye flour with a relatively low extraction, has a nice colour, although I make this bread with different types also. I think it looks and eats best made with a medium type rye; I can't remember the German "type no." equivalent, perhaps T 850 or as Doughman suggests T 1050.

[u][b]Starter[/b][/u]? The reason the [b]starter[/b] weight isn't used in the calculation is because it's used to start the [b][u]next batch[/u][/b] of sourdough!
I suppose we have different uses for the word [b]starter[/b], as far as I can tell, in American parlance [b]'starter'[/b] is what Germans call [b]'sourdough'[/b] however the Germans use the word 'starter' to mean the [b]mature sourdough[/b] that's added to flour and water to "start" the fermentation in a new sourdough. Essentially it's the same thing but it's called starter when it's used to 'start' the next batch. When the same is used for bread doughs, it’s called 'sourdough'. In summary, my ‘starter’ and or ‘mother’ or ‘chef’ is the mature sourdough.

Not looking for bakers, sorry.

[quote="Doughman"]
So, when the dough is baking on the hearth, the seam side is down? It sure develops into a very nice random cracks on the top crust. So, the basket is
never covered in plastic? Have you ever tried to bake the bread with the seam
side up? Instead of using regular bread flour with that formula, you might want to
try using type 1050 flour instead.
[/quote]

Yep, seam side down, and I never cover the basket, covering, seems to minimise crack distribution and tends to reabsorb the dust resulting in less contrast. Yes, I have made it seam side up, but I've never been able to achieve good symmetry and pleasing – random - crack distribution. I think you’re right; slightly higher extraction flour produces even better eating.

Danubian,
Very cool, although I didn't let my bread proof as much in fear of having a pancake instead of a beautiful loaf! Do you use a light rye or whole grain rye? As well I wanted to know what is the hydration of your mother starter and is it rye or wheat?
You looking for any bakers?

Jeremy

Hi Danubian,

So, when the dough is baking on the hearth, the seam side is down? It sure develops into a very nice random cracks on the top crust. So, the basket is
never covered in plastic? Have you ever tried to bake the bread with the seam
side up? Instead of using regular bread flour with that formula, you might want to
try using type 1050 flour instead.

Well done Jeremy. I'm in Sydney.

I made a few loaves today for the weekend fishing trip up to the mountains. However, since I was going to be making some bread I decided to photograph the proving and loading onto peel in sequence.

Below, dough just after moulding in the basket with the seam down
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_2915.jpg[/img]

At full proof ready to be transfered on to the peel
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_2933.jpg[/img]

Hand on top about to turn the basket over
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_2936.jpg[/img]

Being released from the basket
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_2938.jpg[/img]

Rolled over seam on the peel ready for the oven.
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_2939.jpg[/img]

And here's the long long one
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/plutrach/IMG_2942.jpg[/img]

Congrats, Jeremy! Beautiful!


Danubian!
It worked, although I used white rye flour(finer milled!) in the final dough instead of whole grain, worked stupendously although I think in a pro oven it would look somewhat nicer!
[img]http://sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/8284-1/CIMG1854.JPG[/img]

Thanks!
Jeremy
P.S. Where are you located?

Very well! Thank you Danubian for the very clear description! I will try this! It is always very confusing for me this seam side up and down under.

Wink

But now here is the lost key...

[quote="Danubian"]
... it appears the final proof of your dough piece was seam "up" and placed in the oven seam "down" ?...
[/quote]

Not exactly. The final proof was counter intuitive with the seam side in the bottom of the basket. There it grew together in the following 2 hours. But then I did it wrong. I turned the loaf with the key up. I thought this was the idea ... an opening of the weak seam side. Wasn' it?

Anyway I will never dock or score these high percentage ryes again! Beautiful!

For the flours...
Perhaps it has something to do with subsidies, import duties and politics. In Europe only the british bakers are free to choose Canadian flour, I think. Even at the [i]Coupe du Monde de la Boulangerie[/i] in Paris the American bakers looked a bit surprised at the offered flours.

Michael


[quote="Skua"]
Today I tried this volcanic look. Hey that's cool to watch the crackling in the hot oven!

Very Happy

[img]http://sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/8273-4/Roggen.jpg[/img]

I used your Formula, Danubian.

Only with little adaptions. No malt allowed, no malt given! German rye has a fierce enzymatic loading! And no hard wheat available, sorry. The hardest I could find was an Italian style flour. 9.5% in protein. Hey, we never have something better! Weak sun I assume

Confused

So it is up to the gently kneaded pentosanes to make bread inside. I hope so! My sourdough is a 3 stage. Pöt's system. Easy to use for homebakers!
[/quote]

G'day Michael,

If I may, just a helping hand to improve the cracking appearance of your rye.

Firstly, it appears the final proof of your dough piece was seam "up" and placed in the oven seam "down"?

If my observation is correct you have missed out on getting the best and most evenly distributed cracking during proving. If you try placing the seam [b]"down" [/b]in the well dusted basket - this dough should be a little on the soft side. Then liberally dust the[b] top [/b]of the loaf and smooth it down - so there is a fine coating of flour - by running your hand right around and over it, like rubbing the top of a ball. Then allow to prove. During this time the dough piece will develop cracks all over the top surface because the dough is unable to stretch freely due to the lack of insoluble elastic protein. As proving continues the cracks will widen and become more wide spread. When it's time for baking, place your hand on the top of the dough piece carefully and up turn your basket. Then gently roll over onto the dusted peel with the seam [b]"down" [/b]. Finally, the limited expansion that will occur in the oven will continue in the existing cracks, and the colour contrast will result as the rich brown of the exposed dough caramelises.

I understand your need to stay away from diastase enzymes - malt - when using European Rye. I'm surprised Canadian flour isn't available in Germany.

Yes, pentosans are very important in rye bread doughs.

For those inexperienced with rye; the water content of rye bread doughs is very important and most inexperienced bakers tend to make rye doughs too tight due to the pentosans, soluble fibres, and gums which give a sticky nature to the dough.

Today I tried this volcanic look. Hey that's cool to watch the crackling in the hot oven!

Very Happy

[img]http://sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/8273-4/Roggen.jpg[/img]

I used your Formula, Danubian.

Only with little adaptions. No malt allowed, no malt given! German rye has a fierce enzymatic loading! And no hard wheat available, sorry. The hardest I could find was an Italian style flour. 9.5% in protein. Hey, we never have something better! Weak sun I assume

Confused

So it is up to the gently kneaded pentosanes to make bread inside. I hope so! My sourdough is a 3 stage. Pöt's system. Easy to use for homebakers!

Michael


G'day Jeremy,

Dough Yield (DY) refers to the hydration rate; eg DY 170 means water at 70% etc.

"Final proof" refers to that period of time from final moulding (shaping) until the dough enters the oven. Finished dough temperature (FDT) has a profound influence on bulk fermentation times as well as final proof times. Prover temperature is also very influencial on final proof times.

It pays to use good strong wheat flour when blending with other grain flours or when adding large percentages of ingredients - leek and walnuts - that add weight on the gluten structure of the dough.

Thanks for the link I'll check it out.

Thanks Danubian,
Will give it a try, what is DY? I made that leek walnut loaf and it tastes great but the ratio of barley flour made me use a too weak wheat flour (all purpose) so next time I will try adding bread flour instead, no pics, not worthy!
This is the thread on the site I joined in Germany!

http://www.backrezepte-online.de/forum/ ... php?t=1125

Jeremy
P.S. What is the final proofing time?

Hi Danubian,

Nice bread! For the rye sourdough preparation, are you using the Weinheimer One-Phase method?

Thanks for the formula, Danubian. Awesome cracks!


[quote="Doughman"]
Hi Danubian,

Nice bread! For the rye sourdough preparation, are you using the Weinheimer One-Phase method?
[/quote]

G'day Doughman,

No, I've played around with the [b]Detmold single phase[/b] and produced this sourdough formula. I varied it to suit the type of rye flour we use here. Our rye tends to be deficient in diastase activity so the starter % to flour is higher at 28'C. Normally the starter should be 2% to the flour at 28'C but I find 5% does produce the required pH and TA. Of course it's varied again with a higher extraction rate rye flour. The other parameter I've varied is the DY at 170 instead 180 which is standard with the Detmold single phase.

In the past I was very keen on the [b]Classic 3 Stage Full sour Overnight[/b] but it's too labour intensive and demands extra commitment which I'm not willing to give at this point, especially since my varied Detmold single produces very good results.

Thanks TP nice of you to say so.

Jake & Jeremy,

I decided to photograph the formula page to keep the formatting intact, you'll find it in my original post under the picture of the bread.

As I mentioned before these were made in a bakery so you'll have to play around with the methods and time frames to adapt them to a home kitchen.

good luck.

Wow!! Those are impressive-looking breads Danubian! That's the kind of thing I envisioned my oven producing. How did you do it?? Am looking forward to seeing your formula...

(I don't know if you can attach a Word document - but you could always copy and paste into the text box)

Jake

Well Danubian,
Nice work! U have to share that formula!
I am working on interesting walnut leek and rye loaf right now myself, will post if it works!

Jeremy

G'day Jeremy,

Formula? No problem. Can I attach a word document here?

Ok, rye walnut and leek, good luck and post the results.