hook mixer?

use it or not too use it?

those that seen my posts know that my bread isn't perfect but while trying different ways of working on my dough i notice not much difference if any between hand kneading and hook mixer kneading.

i got breville wizz mix profesional with 700Watts motor that comes with nice hook and great side and bottom reach while mixing even small size dough.

on slow speed it takes about 10min to get it done and dough doesn't get hot as it used to with simple food procesor, that was very nasty to my dough so i never used it.

i can manage to keep my kitchen cleaner while using this machine and it gives me 10min to do other things around.

also if i use it would it be safe and maybe better to go for little bit more speed to keep dough warm? i use 40-45C water and after i finish on low speed dough temperature is low 20s those cold melbourne winter days.

Bake Me !

43 comments

[quote="Croc"]
i was thinking about doing video of my bread making ...
[/quote]

what an excellent idea! Brings the forum to a new level!


Croc,

you are using Laucke flour, which everyone one this forum loves, so it is not a flour problem.
Your dried yeast sounds like it shouldn't be a problem

humour me.

Do you mind using the preferment [url=http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/recipes/]recipe[/url] that I used in the [url=http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/2006/07/01/beginners-blog-kneading-and-mixing/]tutorial?[/url] I know that one works, and have baked it recently. (I am sure that Slowdough knows what he is talking about, but I would prefer to start with something that I know)

Lets work through that recipe and tutorial and see where we get to?

If I get a chance (am working till midnight Saturday night!) I will try to bake it on Sunday too

cheers
Dom


i posted pic of bread and crumb in the other thread

yeast i use is dry and i always get it going with suger and warm water
i got two different brands and both are fresh with "best before" date year from now.

from what i seen and from my notes i lost owen lift after i stoped doing punching and kneading after bulk proofing.

i'm going to do next bread old way to confirm that i'm not going crazy

recipe i'm following is from the other thread that slowdough posted for me

i'm very bussy with my day job for next few days so i don't think i will have time to bake till sunday but i be checking forum so if anyone got ideas please post.

i was thinking about doing video of my bread making to provide good laughs for you guys and maybe then you will be able to tell me what i'm missing.
just need to buy tripod first

Bake Me !

Croc,

if your yeast is active, but you are getting no rise in the oven I wonder if the loaf is overproved.

(on the other hand I do wonder about your yeast if your loaf is getting no rise. Is it dried or fresh?)

as Bill suggests, most of us here bake sourdough more often than yeasted breads. So the timing involved is quite different, while the principles are the same.

Lets go back a few steps.
Which recipe are you using? - the one that slowdough posted, one of your own, or the one that is on my blog?

Can you describe exactly the process, timings, oven temp etc that you are using? If you can post us a photo that might help.

cheers
Dom


I think you may find that, this being a [b][i]sourdough[/i] [/b]forum, you have been getting advice that applies to the slow sourdough methods and not to the faster commercial yeast that I think you are using at the moment.

Question

[quote="Croc"]
this is to the dot what i did (by your blog)
is it possible that electric owen is the problem?
[/quote]

Well Croc you DO have us baffled here. I wonder if it is the flour you are using. Did you change the brand or something? Other than that I have NO ideas any more.

[quote="SourDom"]
that sounds right Croc

the dough will firm up again, but relax after you leave it.

So - do the first three or four kneads, separated by ten minutes.
Then leave the dough for 30 minutes, and give it a turn (also known as a stretch and fold - see that tutorial on proving).

For your pre-ferment dough (a la slowdough), turn a couple of times (letting the dough rest for 45 minutes in between), then shape for a final rise before baking.

cheers
Dom
[/quote]

this is to the dot what i did (by your blog)

is it possible that electric owen is the problem?

Bake Me !

that sounds right Croc

the dough will firm up again, but relax after you leave it.

So - do the first three or four kneads, separated by ten minutes.
Then leave the dough for 30 minutes, and give it a turn (also known as a stretch and fold - see that tutorial on proving).

For your pre-ferment dough (a la slowdough), turn a couple of times (letting the dough rest for 45 minutes in between), then shape for a final rise before baking.

cheers
Dom


[quote="SourDom"]
It won't approach this sort of stretchiness until it has had three or four kneads (with breaks).
[/quote]

there was not much difference even at the last 4th kneading, huge difference before kneading but once i knead it goes back to being firm again.

Bake Me !

Croc,

your dough will be a lot softer after resting for ten minutes, but will then firm up with kneading. It won't approach this sort of stretchiness until it has had three or four kneads (with breaks).

For your own interest, you might like to try this stretch test before each knead - see how the dough changes with each knead/rest period.

However once you have got the hang of it you won't need to do the windowpane test any more.

you will get there...!

cheers
Dom


dough is 62% hydration if that makes much difference

Bake Me !

just made first slice and very much same issue as with all my last bakes

nice and tasty but short crumb and almost no lift in a owen

before that i had only issue with short crumb so god knows what is going on here

i believe taste improved since i been following recipes to the dot and other instructions but i lost lift even on breads that i always got great lift before and only rolls had owen lift issues for me.

oh btw, i'm going bold due to pulling my hair out over this

gaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Bake Me !

Have you changed your flour, I know this is most likely your first thought.

Post us your recipe.

I think you are trying too hard, leave it for a couple days then try again.

qahtan.

PS I don't do this window pane, or hydration thing, and I don't have any problems.
I think it is mainly a (man) thing......

[quote="SourDom"]
Croc,
If you like have a look at [url=http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/2006/07/01/beginners-blog-kneading-and-mixing/]a tutorial I have written on kneading and mixing[/url]

This is windowpaning in a dough mixed by hand (and kneaded using Dan Lepard's method)

[img]http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/files/2006/07/DSCN1155.JPG[/img]

cheers
Dom
[/quote]

i'm trying the 10sec 10min 10sec ................ but when i knead for next 10sec when i start dough is very soft and i nice but after kneading for 10sec there is no way i could stretch it like this, it is very elastic but not soft enough to pull it like this, or should i do this test before i knead next 10sec?

Bake Me !

[quote="Jeremy"]
Carla, Bill bildete einen Witz, seine Maschine mit 10 Zinken sind die Finger auf seiner Hand!
[/quote]

Thanks jeremy for spelling it out

Razz

for me!
Must have needed it

Rolling Eyes

[quote="Bill44"]
[quote="Jeremy"]Carla,
Bill bildete einen Witz, seine Maschine mit 10 Zinken sind die Finger auf seiner Hand!Jeremy
[/quote]
Translation:- Bill was making a joke, the machine with ten prongs are the fingers on his hands.[/quote]

well doh, i'm bit slow i guess

Bake Me !

[quote="Jeremy"]
Carla,
Bill bildete einen Witz, seine Maschine mit 10 Zinken sind die Finger auf seiner Hand!Jeremy
[/quote]
Translation:- Bill was making a joke, the machine with ten prongs are the fingers on his hands.

Carla,
Bill bildete einen Witz, seine Maschine mit 10 Zinken sind die Finger auf seiner Hand!

Jeremy

This loaf was made in Cuisinart Food Processor. In fact you can see it at the back of the loaf....

Wink

)) qahtan

[img]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/qahtan/bake/pullman.jpg[/img]

with so many people making good bread regardless what and how they do it i'm starting to think that maybe my owen is my main issue but that seem strange since i get very nice colour on most of breads

i'm trying slowdough tips again (bulk proofing right now) with slight modifications and see if it works out.

will make pics of this bread to make easy to see what my problem is.

Bake Me !

This is a Cuisinart Food Processor, yes it has a plastic blade also a steel blade. I used the steel blade for anything other than raisin fruit bread for that I used the plastic blade.
And my bread always turned out good.
I also have two Kenwood stand mixers one is old well 40 years old the
other one is about 25 years old.
But I only use my DLX now for breads. qahtanQ

[img]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/qahtan/7311foodprocessors.jpg[/img]

[quote="Bill44"]
My food processor for bread mixing has 10 prongs and it is just about impossible to overknead with it. It also tells me when the dough is developed. It's very cheap and you just need to wash it well before and after use, but I must admit it needs a bit of maintenence at the moment.

Rolling Eyes

[/quote]

what machine you got there? and how does it tell you when dough is right?

Bake Me !

that is one i'm using

http://www.breville.com.au/products_detail.asp?prod=310

and i never called it food processor, its a mixer

Bake Me !

[quote="Bill44"]
My food processor for bread mixing has 10 prongs and it is just about impossible to overknead with it.
[/quote]

It sounds like the word "food processor" is used for any type of food processing machine then? Not just the food processors that are sold in shops under that name??

Like this one [url=http://www.noelleeming.co.nz/wcsstore/images/items/59778_lg.png][b]here[/b][/url]

My food processor for bread mixing has 10 prongs and it is just about impossible to overknead with it. It also tells me when the dough is developed. It's very cheap and you just need to wash it well before and after use, but I must admit it needs a bit of maintenence at the moment.

Rolling Eyes

[quote="qahtan"]
Carla,,,, bread making in Food Processor - I beg to differ with you, yes you most certainly can make bread with a food processor, I did for a few years before I bought my D L X,.

As for kneading for 10 minutes , well as long as you are not going at top speed, 8 mins is about the average for the DLX..... but on the first speed. qahtan....
[/quote]

Maybe we talk about different things here?
What do YOU call a food processor? The things I know as foodprocessors have sharp little blades which cut and blend. And I cannot believe that this is the right tool to mix a dough.

And as for the time to knead: I have a Kenwood major which I never use any more as the gluten is dead after about 5 minutes of kneading with that machine! I use my hands now.

But then you might all have differnt machines to mine.

And yes - some pictures would be good to make better recommendations.

I beg to differ with you, yes you most certainly can make bread with a food processor, I did for a few years before I bought my D L X,.

As for kneading for 10 minutes , well as long as you are not going at top speed, 8 mins is about the average for the DLX..... but on the first speed. qahtan....

Hi Croc,

If your able it would be great to post some photo's of your loaves, so then easier to make appropriate judgements on faults, otherwise i feel like i'm only really guessing.

This way we should be able to make a better assessment of the loaves and give much better feed back. There is a big difference in the understanding of terminology amongst everyone on the forum depending on what they've read and who they trust and follow.

I'm going away for a few weeks and when i return i will learn how to put some photo's up, so i can show you the differences about what i'm descibing as well.

Cheers,

Slowdough

"Lifes Short, Bake Hard"

Croc,
If you like have a look at [url=http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/2006/07/01/beginners-blog-kneading-and-mixing/]a tutorial I have written on kneading and mixing[/url]

This is windowpaning in a dough mixed by hand (and kneaded using Dan Lepard's method)

[img]http://sourdom.sourdough.net.au/files/2006/07/DSCN1155.JPG[/img]

cheers
Dom


[quote="Croc"]
this was in regards to yeasted bread, i didn't look at sourdough and hook mixer yet and will have to wait and see this one once my starter is good to go
[/quote]
Indeed, I was thinking of the yeasted stuff above as well. I don't fully develop the dough when bulk fermenting, should've mentioned that...

Embarassed


big thanks everyone

in regards to gluten window i'm not 100% sure i'm doing it right

could someone make a picture of done right window?

i take small pinch of dough press it with two fingers and than open fingers very very slow. is there better way to do this?

Bake Me !

Croc,

I rest my case. (see comment in beginners forum re: many different opinions)

Let me try to put this into something that makes sense without upsetting anyone.
When starting out it can be very beneficial to mix by hand as you get a better understanding of what the dough is doing at each stage of development in the mixing process.

It is also true that in longer fermentation doughs both sourdough and yeasted doughs that the dough continues its development thru the rest of the fermentation period, but normally mixing times are adjusted to suit, and also the final loaf characteristic requirements are taken into consideration such as openess of texture, and loaf volume etc.

This is where it can start to get confusing so lets keep it simple. I have a very firm philosophy when it comes to what you do and don't do. Making beautiful bread should be a fun rewarding experience and although at times it will be very frustrating, it will ultimately be rewarding as you solve your dilema's and feel proud of your achievements, therefor in order to make it as enjoyable as possible you need have it fit within your lifestyle.

If you wish to use your mixer because it makes your life easier and as a result the whole experience more enjoyable then DO IT!
Great bread can be made either way, it comes down to what fulfills your needs as an Artisan as to what you do or don't do.

So in answer to you original question, yes you can get a great result using your hook mixer if you wish. Use the same recipe as i gave you for your yeasted bread and mix it in your mixer using the same principles of development as previously discussed, so making sure that the dough is able to be stretched out to make a "gluten window" this will require you to stop the mixer at different stages and test the dough using this method. you should aim for a finished dough temp of 24c (at end of mixing) This may take a couple of attempts because your surroundings will be unique. if the dough is a little cold simply extend the bulk proof stage a little, if its warm shorten it slightly. Then just do everything else the same from there, once you have this down pat then we can start to experiment with fold and turn, autolyze,etc.

I hope this has cleared a few things up for you, let us know,

Cheers,

Slowdough

"Lifes Short, Bake Hard"

One of the problems with processing a sourdough for 10 minutes in a mixer is that you can have it developed when it still has so many hours of developement left to go. It developes more with bulk fermentation and then more with proofing and since sourdoughs take so much longer, by the time you are done, it is overdeveloped. You can develop a yeasted dough this way because it doesn't have so much time involved with further develpement. Does that make any sense? I never mix over five minutes for my doughs, and by feel, it is usually more like 3 - 4 minutes
after autolyse. Of course you can mix a wetter dough longer, so the time depends on what bread you are making too.

[quote="northwestsourdough"]
One of the problems with processing a sourdough for 10 minutes in a mixer is that you can have it developed when it still has so many hours of developement left to go. It developes more with bulk fermentation and then more with proofing and since sourdoughs take so much longer, by the time you are done, it is overdeveloped. You can develop a yeasted dough this way because it doesn't have so much time involved with further develpement. Does that make any sense? I never mix over five minutes for my doughs, and by feel, it is usually more like 3 - 4 minutes
after autolyse. Of course you can mix a wetter dough longer, so the time depends on what bread you are making too.
[/quote]

this was in regards to yeasted bread, i didn't look at sourdough and hook mixer yet and will have to wait and see this one once my starter is good to go

Bake Me !

[quote="KazaKhan?®©"]
[quote="forno"] think you mean the feel of the dough, yeh?

I am starting to feel the difference when I knead, need to bake more often though

Crying or Very sad

[/quote]
If thats the case I stop kneading every so often and check the dough temperature and gluten development...[/quote]

this brings me back to one of my questions
if my dough is droping temperature during mixing with hook mixer should i bump the speed up? or is that good thing? i know that too high temperature is bad so i'm half happy alread.

Bake Me !

[quote="forno"]
think you mean the feel of the dough, yeh?

I am starting to feel the difference when I knead, need to bake more often though

Crying or Very sad

[/quote]
If thats the case I stop kneading every so often and check the dough temperature and gluten development...


[quote="KazaKhan?®©"]
[quote="forno"] think you mean the feel of the dough, yeh?

I am starting to feel the difference when I knead, need to bake more often though

Crying or Very sad

[/quote]
If thats the case I stop kneading every so often and check the dough temperature and gluten development...[/quote]

So what am I looking for with reference to gluten development?

[quote="Bill44"]
[quote="KazaKhan?®©"][Without more information I fail to see how you can be [i]sure[/i] Croc is overdeveloping the gluten...
[/quote]
When you use a mixer how do you know how anything is going?

Wink

[/quote]

I think you mean the feel of the dough, yeh?

I am starting to feel the difference when I knead, need to bake more often though

Crying or Very sad

[quote="Bill44"]
When you use a mixer how do you know how anything is going?

Wink

[/quote]
What...

Confused


[quote="KazaKhan?®©"]
[Without more information I fail to see how you can be [i]sure[/i] Croc is overdeveloping the gluten...
[/quote]
When you use a mixer how do you know how anything is going?

Wink

[quote="carla"]
You can NEVER make yeast dough in a foodprocessor!
[/quote]
There would be plenty of people that would disagree with that apparently.
[quote="carla"]
And if you knead a dough in any machine for 10 Minutes I am sure that the gluten is dead after that! Especially if you use just 500g of flour!!
[/quote]
I'm using a Kenwood Chef KM210 and 10 minutes would be the average for me, of course it depends on what speed I'm mixing at and the size of the dough. I've mixed doughs in a 20ltr Hobart for 16 minutes which puts considerably more energy into the dough then my kenwood. Without more information I fail to see how you can be [i]sure[/i] Croc is overdeveloping the gluten...


[quote="carla"]
[quote="Croc"]i got breville wizz mix profesional with 700Watts motor that comes with nice hook and great side and bottom reach while mixing even small size dough. [b]on slow speed it takes about 10min [/b] to get it done and dough doesn't get hot as it used to with simple food procesor, that was very nasty to my dough so i never used it.
[/quote]

I would suggest Croc that you [b]overknead[/b] your dough!

You can NEVER make yeast dough in a foodprocessor!

And if you knead a dough in any machine for 10 Minutes I am sure that the gluten is dead after that! Especially if you use just 500g of flour!!

That would explain why you have problems with your dough.

Just mix it so everything is nicely distributed in the dough, then let it sit for half an hour to an hour to rise, then knead it by hand for 3 or 4 minutes - and you should have no problems with 500g of flour to do that by hand! - divide and shape your rolls or your bread, let rise a second time and bake.

Good luck![/quote]

i believed that too but i get very much same problems when i only use hands.
i only got this hook mixer short while ago where my problems are years old.

i kneaded by hand for 2min and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 and so on up to 20min

done same with hook mixer trying anywhere from 1min to 10min
also those bread making machines make quite nice texture (compared to mine) and they all yeast based so i'm sure i can get away with my dough mixer just hoped for some tips.

also i would think that all bakeries use mixer with yeast breads, don't they ?

Bake Me !

[quote="Croc"]
i got breville wizz mix profesional with 700Watts motor that comes with nice hook and great side and bottom reach while mixing even small size dough. [b]on slow speed it takes about 10min [/b] to get it done and dough doesn't get hot as it used to with simple food procesor, that was very nasty to my dough so i never used it.
[/quote]

I would suggest Croc that you [b]overknead[/b] your dough!

You can NEVER make yeast dough in a foodprocessor!

And if you knead a dough in any machine for 10 Minutes I am sure that the gluten is dead after that! Especially if you use just 500g of flour!!

That would explain why you have problems with your dough.

Just mix it so everything is nicely distributed in the dough, then let it sit for half an hour to an hour to rise, then knead it by hand for 3 or 4 minutes - and you should have no problems with 500g of flour to do that by hand! - divide and shape your rolls or your bread, let rise a second time and bake.

Good luck!