KNEADING PIZZA DOUGH

forno

I made pizza last night and I felt the crumb was a bit short, will too much kneading shorten the crust?

Fresh yeast
Water
Strong flour
salt

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294 users have voted.

Replies

COFFIN GIRL's picture
COFFIN GIRL 2006 July 18

TOO MUCH KNEADING SHOULDNT MAKE IT SHORT, BUT SERIOUSLY...... HAVE YOU TRIED SOURDOUGH PIZZA BASES? TRUST JEREMY ON THIS ONE, SOURDOUGH PIZZA IS SOMETHING TO BE RECKONED WITH. MORE PREPERATION TIME IS NEEDED, OF COURSE, BUT THE FLAVOURS ARE YUM

COFFIN GIRL's picture
COFFIN GIRL 2006 July 18

NOT REALLY APPROPRIATE FOR SOURDOUGH SITE, BUT THE ABSOLUTE BEST LOAF I HAVE EVER EVER MADE. IT WAS A WHITE YEAST LOAF, MADE & KNEADED ON THE TAILGATE OF OUR LANDCRUISER, PROVED IN AN ICECREAM CONTAINER ON ROOF OF THE CAR AND THEN PLACED IN A SMALL CAMP OVEN FOR FINAL PROOF. WHEN I CHECKED IT, IT HAD BLOWN THE LID OFF THE CAST IRON CAMP OVEN SO I THEN HAD TO PLACE THE SMALL CAMP OVEN INSIDE A BIGGER CAMP OVEN TO BAKE IT. BAKED AT AN UNKNOWN TEMPERATURE, ON COALS OF A FIRE IN A DRY CREEK BED ON THE BANKS OF THE ROPER RIVER, NORTHERN TERRITORY - ONE OF OUR CAMPING TRIP SUCCESSES - WE DONT EAT BADLY WHEN WE GO AWAY!!!

COFFIN GIRL's picture
COFFIN GIRL 2006 July 18

Sorry Bill - had the caps lock on & didnt notice it till half way through - for all those hard of hearing lolol

forno 2006 July 18

Thanks for the sourdough inout, I do really want to get a traditional pizza dough down pat before I tackle a sourdough one.

So over kneading will not have a bad effect on the crumb?

SourDom 2006 July 18

Forno,

in my humble opinion it is almost impossible to overwork dough by hand.

I am not quite sure what you mean when you say 'dough was too short'

You can make excellent pizzas with short/minimal kneading a la Dan Lepard.
For example (I am about to be struck by lightning)

340g warm water
1 tsp dried yeast
500g flour
7.5g salt
15g olive oil

Mix yeast in warm water, stir and leave for 10 minutes
Add flour salt and olive oil
mix briefly until ragged mess, leave for ten minutes
Knead for 10 seconds on an oiled surface, leave for 10 minutes
ditto
knead for 10 seconds, leave for 1 hour, covered in a bowl.

Divide
stretch out pizzas with your finger tips (do not roll out with rolling pin)
Place on oiled tray
put on toppings
Place in oven on top of stone (oven as hot as it will get)
after 5-10 minutes slide the pizza off the tray onto the stone directly
bake until cooked.

I like the sourdough versions too, but actually prefer this version
[crack, sizzle, smoke rising from hair]

Dom

giles 2006 July 19

[quote="SourDom"]
I like the sourdough versions too, but actually prefer this version
[crack, sizzle, smoke rising from hair]

Dom
[/quote]
It use a similar recipe, but try to make the dough earlier in the day and refrigerate it. I also don't use a pizza tray: straight on to the stone.

I'll work out a sourdough pizza dough after I work on my bread some more, and maybe after the current weight loss program has run a bit longer without pizza.

A good site (perhaps "the" site) for pizza making is this one:

[url]http://pizzamaking.com[/url]

It's not all yeast based there: some use of sourdough, plus discussions of all sorts of different styles of pizza.

Regards,

Giles

forno 2006 July 20

[quote="carla"]
http://www.laohu.de/kochbuch/bilder/1_teig.jpg
[/quote]

Thats what it looks like for me too, It may have a touch dry through.

I wilkl give that recipe a try thanks sourdom

I made the the pizza on a timber chopping board and then slid it of the board straight onto the oven stone.

The pizza tasted great, just need to get the dough spot on

used semolina to do the final shaping which helped a treat in sliding ity onto the stone

SourYumMum's picture
SourYumMum 2006 July 21

Hey while you guys are talking about pizza bases ... can you help me with pide/pidda dough.

The local Turkish takeaway makes awesomely good pide ... the best thing about it is the wonderful CHEWY, CHEWY dough that they pop all the goodies on. I mean THIS sort of thing ....

<img src="http://static.flickr.com/49/194272307_3774a0203d.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="kusbasili_pide">

With fresh lemon juice squeezed all over it ... goodness me!

Carol.

carla's picture
carla 2006 July 21

Hi,

Your picture shows a "Lahmacun" not a pide.
If you want the recipe for that (or for an original pide) , then I can post it here for you.

"Lahmacun" is like a pizza with a lamb meat topping which is eaten flat or (if the dough is very thin) rolled up like a pancake.

"Pide" (or pita bread) are round or oblong flat loaves which often get stuffed with doener kebab meat or other meats.
In other countries (USA) pide is used to make sandwich-type lunch dishes with lots of raw vegetables to eat on the run.

forno 2006 July 21

[quote="carla"]
Hi,

Your picture shows a "Lahmacun" not a pide.
[b]If you want the recipe for that (or for an original pide) , then I can post it here for you.[/b]

"Lahmacun" is like a pizza with a lamb meat topping which is eaten flat or (if the dough is very thin) rolled up like a pancake.

"Pide" (or pita bread) are round or oblong flat loaves which often get stuffed with doener kebab meat or other meats.
In other countries (USA) pide is used to make sandwich-type lunch dishes with lots of raw vegetables to eat on the run.
[/quote]

Oh yes please

In Melbourne there is a place called "Flavours of Lakhoum" that do wonderful middle eastern food

And they have similar gizmo's to that photo

SourYumMum's picture
SourYumMum 2006 July 21

Hi Carla,

I use that photo as an example of what it looks like. I'm sure they are probably called different things in different locations. We have lots of different names for the same thing in Australia ... if you ask for a scallop in Tasmania, you will be given a sea scallop ... in NSW you will get a potato scallop that has never been near the sea! We can't even give our beer glasses consistent names!

Pita bread here (NSW - or at least my part of it) is a fresh flat bread that you buy at the supermarket to stuff to your heart's content ... and Pide or Pidda is what is in the earlier photograph ... but the fillings vary from plain lamb, to suzuclu (spicy sausage), cheese, spinach ... or any or all of the above!

The pide that we purchase locally, made by a Turkish family running a very successful business, are identical to the photo, are only served like that with the dough just curled up at the edge to contain the fillings ... but they are never 'rolled up'. Here, that would be done with a different type of flat bread (commonly called Lebanese bread), and stuffed with lamb or chicken, and salad, perhaps felafel instead of meat ... and usually referred to as a 'doner kebab'.

Indeed having just googled 'pide' and 'lahmacun' ... the 'lahmacun' is a completely different thing and not what I'm referring to (although it looks yummy!). If you google pide you will see more of what I mean ... boat-shaped things with various fillings. My small boys love them filled with egg and cheese.

But as forno said, post your recipe, I'd love to give it a go because it all looks delicious to me!

Carol.

carla's picture
carla 2006 July 21

[quote="SourYumMum"]
Pita bread here (NSW - or at least my part of it) is a fresh flat bread that you buy at the supermarket to stuff to your heart's content ... and Pide or Pidda is what is in the earlier photograph ... but the fillings vary from plain lamb, to suzuclu (spicy sausage), cheese, spinach ... or any or all of the above!
[/quote]

Hi Carol,
I know what you mean. After living in Italy and Turkey for a bit I was astounded to be served "Original Italian Pizza" here in a restaurant in NZ, which was made of a scone dough bottom, topped with spagetti out of a tin and covered in 5 cm thick yellow melted cheese. In Italy you would get killed for smaller crimes... Some outfits have now found that you use yeast dough for the bottoms which must be an improvement!

Here comes the first recipe:

[b]Turkish Pide[/b]

Ingredients:
2 teaspoons dry yeast,
1/2 teaspoon sugar,
1/2 cup warm water,
4 cups bread flour,
1 teaspoon salt,
3 tablespoons olive oil,
1 cup cold water,
egg wash (made from 1 part egg and 1 part water),
Nigella seeds or sesame seeds.

Directions:
Dissolve the yeast and sugar in warm water and let stand in a warm place for 10 minutes, until frothy.
Stir in the flour, cover with a wet kitchen towel, and let it rise for about 30 minutes.

Put the flour in a large bowl, made a well in the center, and put in the above sponge, salt, olive oil, and lukewarm water. Gradually work in the flour to make a soft and sticky dough. Knead the dough on a floured surface for 15 minutes. The dough will be very sticky at first, but as you
knead, it will gradually cease to stick to your hands.
You should have a damp and very springy dough that will offer no resistance to kneading. Put the dough in an oiled bowl, cover with a wet kitchen towel, and let it rise for about 1 hour.

You can refrigerate the dough at this point until you are ready to use it. I usually make the dough in the evening and either leave it on the table (in winter when its about 7 to 10°C), or put it into the fridge, covered, to prevent drying out.

To shape the pide, divide the dough into 2 pieces and shape each into a ball.
Cover with a towel and let rest 30 minutes.

Preheat the oven to 250°C, and heat the quarry tiles 30 minutes before baking.
Very gently, loosely mould the dough pieces into a round or an oblong shape (depending what you intend to do with it later), being careful not to knock too much gas out of the dough.

Give an intermediate proof of 20 minutes. Cover with plastic to prevent skinning.

Take each dough piece and stretch it out to an oval shape (by hand).
This should be done on a bench dusted with semolina.
Place onto a prepared baking tray.

Once you have the oval shape which is almost as long as the width of the baking tray, wash with egg wash (made from 1 part egg and 1 part water) and dock with your fingers approximately 5-6 times down the length of the dough piece.

Very lightly sprinkle with cumin seed, sesame seeds or black sesame seeds.

Allow to dry proof for 20 minutes.

Place into a pre-heated oven at 250°C and bake for approximately 7-9 minutes.
Do not over bake or you will destroy the effect of this lightly baked flat bread.

SourYumMum's picture
SourYumMum 2006 July 21

Hey Carla!

That sounds like dinner to me! I even have Nigella seeds in the cupboard

Thanks for writing that out.

Tinned spaghetti on pizza is hilarious! My two boys would just LOVE it!

I have so often wondered how the local Turkish 'mama' (the whole family works there ... mum, dad, kids, grandparents, neighbours) makes her dough for the pide. It is just so delicious and more-ish! They are doing so well they have just taken over the property next door and expanded the business. My two boys (3 & 4) love getting Friday night takeaway from there so they can watch the bellydancer! (I hope they don't grow up expecting that sort of entertainment ...........)

I have sometimes thought to myself ... maybe they would take me on for a few nights as the world's oldest work experience student so I could learn how to make that chewy dough!

And I finally got my quarry tile, too ... it just lives in the oven now.

Thanks again ... printing it out now!

)))))))))))))))))))

carla's picture
carla 2006 July 21

Oh great - when you've baked it then we have some photos too!

In case you'd like to try the Lahmacun, here is the recipe:

[b]Lahmacun[/b]

DOUGH:
1 tsp dried yeast,
1/2 tsp sugar,
1 1/2 cup lukewarm water,
2 1/2 cups flour,
1/2 tsp salt,
olive oil.

FILLING:
1 tblsp butter,
1 onion finely chopped,
3 cloves garlic minced,
200g minced lamb,
1 peeled chopped tomato,
1 Jalapeno seeded, chopped fine,
1/2 tsp "Kirmizi biber" (or a combination of sweet paprika and cayenne pepper),
1/4 cup finely-chopped fresh mint,
1/4 cup finely-chopped fresh parsley,
salt to taste,
freshly-ground black pepper to taste,
juice of 1 lemon.

CHEESE FILLING ALTERNATIVE:
2 1/2 cup white Turkish cheese or feta cheese crumbled,
2 eggs lightly beaten,
1/4 cup butter softened,
1/2 cup finely chopped fresh parsley.

Combine the yeast and sugar with a little of the warm water, and set aside until mixture is frothy. Sift the flour and salt into a large bowl, and make a well in the center. Add the yeast mixture, along with the remaining warm water. Using your hands, work the mixture into a dough, adding more water if necessary.
Transfer dough to a lightly floured surface and knead until pliable and springy, about 5 minutes.
Place dough in an oiled bowl, turning to coat, cover with a damp cloth and let rise in a warm place until dough doubles in size, about 1 hour.

Knead dough on a lightly floured surface. Cut into 2 to 3 equal pieces. Roll each piece into a ball, place on floured surface and let rest 30 minutes under a towel.

Preheat oven to 240 degrees C, and preheat tiles, or a baking stone.

Prepare the filling:
Melt the butter in a skillet, add the onion and saute until softened, 5 to 7 minutes. Add the garlic and saute another minute.
Transfer onion mixture to a large bowl, add remaining ingredients, and mix thoroughly with your fingertips. If mixture seems too dry, add a teaspoon of water.

Place a ball of dough on a floured surface and roll into a round, flat thin circle. Place the round on the oiled, preheated baking sheets or tiles.
Brush the top with olive oil and spread with a thin, even layer of the meat filling, leaving a border around the edge. Repeat with remaining dough and filling.
Bake for 12 to 15 minutes - the dough should still be soft enough to roll up.

Squeeze a little lemon juice over each of the hot lahmacuns, and serve immediately either flat or rolled up into cones.

Cheese Filling Alternative:
Mix all the filling ingredients in a bowl and blend thoroughly.
Spread a thin layer on each circle of dough.
Proceed with recipe, but bake for only 6 to 8 minutes.

forno 2006 July 24

I was talking to a guy at the pizza shop about dough and his suggestion was to give the dough a short knead, shape inot portions and then put them in the fridge for 24hrs then let them get back to room temp (20min) and then shape into base top and cook, seemd to produce a smoother textured pizza, still want that slightly tough, chewy yaesty textrure though.

Does anyone here add semolina to their dough.

forno 2006 July 30

Well round 2 turned out alot better.

I kneaded the dough for longer (12-14minutes) and added about a table spoon of olive oil to the dough, then after kneading I put it in the fridge for 13 hours and then let it wake up for about 30 minutes before portioning nad shaping into balls, let them sit for 30 minutes and then started making pizza, the last ones to be made had the best textured crust

there were 2 portion left so I just slashed them and dusted them with semolina and baked at 180 until the colour was about right

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carla's picture
carla 2006 July 25

[quote="forno"]
Does anyone here add semolina to their dough.
[/quote]

Yes i do. I have a flour mill and mill my own Durum.

And the guy at the pizza place is right. Most pizzerias make the dough before they close in the evening and put it in the fridge for the next evenings baking session!

I do the same. If you like I can post one of my pizza dough recipes.

forno 2006 July 25

[quote="carla"]
[quote="forno"]Does anyone here add semolina to their dough.
[/quote]

Yes i do. I have a flour mill and mill my own Durum.

And the guy at the pizza place is right. Most pizzerias make the dough before they close in the evening and put it in the fridge for the next evenings baking session!

I do the same. [b]If you like I can post one of my pizza dough recipes.[/b][/quote]

yes please

I might try and track down some finer semolina

carla's picture
carla 2006 July 26

[b]Semolina Pizza Dough[/b]

2 cups warm water,
20g fresh yeast or 1 packet active dry yeast,
4 tablespoons olive oil,
2 teaspoons sugar,
2 teaspoons salt,
2½ cups wheat flour,
2½ cups semolina flour (I mill this freshly before use).

Mix yeast, sugar and water and wait until yeast is activated (foamed).
Add olive oil and salt. Mix with a spoon.

Add liquid ingredients over flours and mix until well mixed. Then turn out onto a board and knead.

Place dough in a lightly oiled bowl and cover with a wet towel for 2 hours or until double in size.

Remove from bowl, cut into 6 equal pieces, form into balls and place on lightly oiled tray (or in individual plastic containers or ziplock bags). Cover with plastic wrap and refrigerate until ready to use.

Each dough ball will make a 35cm pizza.

This dough recipe can be slow proofed overnight in the refrigerator (retarded), and then used over several days.

Bon appetit.

Louis1994 2017 March 23

Forno, the original pizza dough is a sourdough pizza because yeast was not availlable untill 1846. If you bake anything go for sourdough this gives better taste and so much more pleasure..

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