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Glossary of Baking terms | Sourdough Companion

Glossary of Baking terms

Graham beat me to the suggestion, however, I've been thinking for some time that we should start a thread to complie a glossary of baking terms and definitions.

I propose as follows;

Post any terms, including bakers acronyms and definitions that may be relevant and accurate. I will then continue to compile a running list in this post with bulleted points. The term must be stated with a clear definition in this way here:
eg.

  • Sourdough  a mixture of cereal flour/meal and water that harbours dominant endemic populations of yeasts and lactobacillus in a symbiotic relationship fermenting endemic dough nutrients to aerate or leaven a dough typically used for "sourdough" bread.


Ok, I'll accept input into refinement of these terms but your arguement must be supported with fact and historical precedence. When there is consensus, I'll include it in the list. I expect the majority of the terms to be straight forward but there might be some contention with some terms and proper nouns. I'm sure we can get through it over the course of a year? six months? we'll see.

BTW I'll accept discussion about the meanings of relevant words and anything that generally fits in with the purpose of this thread, but please lets not clog this with hugs and kisses type of chit chat, there's plenty of room for that on the rest of the board.

I'll accept your correction (my typing is prone to errors) at any time but since I'm going to be compiling we need to determine who should have the casting vote if a term meaning needs a resolution for acceptance. I't may not come to that, but ....... 

Is there broad agreement on this? Aye or nay?
 

__________________________________________________________________________

I've posted a draft of the table - below - discussed in the thread. However, I've edited this table, removed "sourdough leaven content". Upon objections from the floor it was considered peripheral to a set of sourdough baking terms and definitions. As stated a poll will be conducted in the near future to gauge the support, or lack of support, for these terms. 

DRAFT


Function My adopted terms Definition
Inoculating culture Starter A small portion of mature sourdough used to inoculate or "start" a larger  batch of flour and water referred to as "sourdough or leaven". At maturity the original weight of "starter" is removed to inoculate or start the next sourdough or leaven, hence it is not included in the yield calculations.
Inoculating dough
Sourdough leaven
A portion of the total bread dough flour weight inoculated by a starter to form a mature dough of endemic flora - including but not limited to: lactobacillus, and endemic yeasts - used to aerate and produce bread dough maturity. Sourdough leaven can be a single stage fermentation or multiple stage fermentation to maturity.
Bread dough
Sourdough Leaven Bread dough       

A dough containing all the final ingredients, including but not limited to: sourdough leaven, that is used as the final dough in the bread making process. This dough is baked to form bread.


 

The process:

fermentation
Sourdough leaven fermentation the process of fermenting sourdough leaven is initiated by a polyculture in a natural symbiosis of endemic origin. Typically a mix of lactobacillus and sourdough leaven yeasts. Bakers yeast strains are not deemed typical nor included.


The product Sourdough Leaven Bread Bread of sourdough leaven; does not include any other fermentation other than the endemic polyculture of sourdough leaven from the first to the final stage until entry into the oven.





 


 

177 comments

[quote=Graham]
Jack's List is an excellent collection of terms.
Thank you TeckPoh for drawing up the list and getting the code to function.

[/quote]

Aaach, no. Jack had it all in table form. I just helped it to migrate and settle into Maedi's code.

Anyone needs help, just give Maedi or me a nudge. Graham, I think your suggestion  provides fair discussion on the bakers terms. Don't see any cows on the horizon yet.

TP


I think both biga and poolish express useful concepts in baking. More so for sourdoughs and doughs with a significant lactobacillus content, since for those doughs the viscosity directly affect the flavour profile. 

"Firmness of dough guarantees a greater contribution of lactobacilli to the volatile profile. In soft doughs ethanol and ethyl acetate are predominant, with high levels of isoalcohols in doughs containing homofermentative strains; these components are considered a consequence of yeast activity that develops more in the presence of homofermentative species due to the lower concentrations of acetic acid generated. Tough doughs differ in ester composition; ethyl acetate in heterofermaentative sour doughs and carbonyls in homofermentative ones are more abundant than in soft doughs " (M. Antonia Martinez-Anaya, Associations and Interaction of Microorganisms in Dough Fermentations, p 87 of Kulp and Lorenz Handbook of Dough Fermentation, op cit)

I don't see a black and white distinction between commercially yeasted doughs and naturally yeasted or sourdough. All dough contains both a variety of yeasts and lactobacilla.  Some formulas add bakers yeast to sourdough culture, others culture commercial yeast doughs in an environment to increase the natural lactobacilli from the flour.

In any case the term "poolish" dates from about 1840 and the Polish bakers in Vienna, while commercial yeast did not become widepread until the 1860s, presumably early poolish were naturally leavened or old dough sourdough sponges.

 

Jack, have you been following the thread about sourdough,ask TP or someone to point out Johns objections and considerations, I know that here in the States a lot of bakers mix multiple ferments to make "hybrid" then label it artisan and or sourdough!
My two bits, I am off to the gym!

According to Kaplan, who quotes Dufour,(Practical Treatise on French and Parisian Breadmaking),a "pouliche" is a yeast based sourdough...thus defined by the addition of yeast....yes refined in Vienna,(and dependant on strong hungarian flour)but initially done with barm yeasts, also called brewers yeasts,as Australian bakers did. This is just like the modern hybrids....except in reverse(they wanted less twang,we want more)

 Theres no question of the quality of these breads, but for the sake of accuracy its clear they arent sourdough...they were actually developed to shortern the  sourdough process, and "improve" it.. The distinction was so clear to everybody in that time period, because this new process saved time...the bread rose faster and if carefully managed, was also consistent....it was adopted rapidly far and wide, and sourdough really languished in France, until post WW2.


 


 

Well, I've been busy with family matters, it seems to be a high maintenance time.

However, I think Graham's council is wise. The idea that lists be posted from the floor seems a good way to document the language no matter how confused or flawed we or others believe it is. It stands to reason we should look at all the data first before refining in earnest.

John, "flushing out rogue terms" is legitimate and part of the refinement process, which is welcome. But since many of us are not as far down the track as you are in this exercise we may need to catch up. It might be prudent to allow all the data to come in first.

However, you made an interesting point about the language being rooted in the process. This I believe is important. I wonder how varied the methods are out there are? There's obviously some commonality or overacrching no matter where, who, or how. This may hold some of the key to how terms are used as well as how a specific language can be formulated.

I'll have to admit when I was at school Latin was removed from the syllabus the year before so my Latin is very poor, I have to rely on my fathers meal time discussions on word origins and dictionaries. I find the English word "leaven" in Latin seems to be: [quote]
fermento, fermentare, fermentavi, fermentatus 
leaven; cause fermentation in; aerate[/quote]

[quote=John D][sic]"Leaven" isnt anglicised "levain",they are both from the latin "Levamen"[/quote]

As far as I can see the Latin: "levo"
English: "to raise, to hold, support".

Hence Latin: "levamen"
the English: "mitigation, alleviation, consolation, solace"

I'd have to agree the stem "lev - levi" seem to be the root.





I agree, John.

There was a distinction in the past and needs to be a distinction in the present and future.
They are definitely two different animals.

Jack, S cerevisae competes for maltose with lactics it also has a preference for wetter conditions as well as aerated conditions. To save typing out a new post you can see an earlier  thread [url=http://sourdough.com.au/?q=forum/topic/1093#comment-8473][b]here[/b][/url]. John and I were discussing some of these things earlier.
[quote=JohnD] Theres no question of the quality of these breads, but for the sake of accuracy its clear they arent sourdough...they were actually developed to shortern the  sourdough process, and "improve" it.. The distinction was so clear to everybody in that time period, because this new process saved time...the bread rose faster and if carefully managed, was also consistent....it was adopted rapidly far and wide, and sourdough really languished in France, until post WW2.

[/quote]

In Central European countries where rye was an important bread flour, hybrids were made. A porton of the rye flour was fermented as sourdough for it's ability to produce an elastic crumb and enhance the flavour in rye bread. Yeast was added at the bread dough stage to produce gas and reduce the DTO. This is still the main rye method in those rye eating areas in CE.

The problem with dictionaries of latin is that they are highly subjective. The verb fermento you qoute,means as it says...fermenting,literally "to ferment".

Levamen is a Latin noun...meaning something like "that which causes fermentation".

The"lev" root is common to most of the countries the Romans occupied leaven/levain/lievito...ive forgotten the Spanish and Portuguese,but they have the same root.....levamen.There are other Roman culinary terms which have the same "amen" ending,such as liquamen,a salty condiment made from fermented fish( a broth), so the "lev" bit is the root sound as in "elevation","levitate"...it means to raise /open/expand etc.,so it looks like to me anyway,that the Latin word levamen actually means leaven..the "broth" that causes the "lev"...sourdough leaven. I know.....nobody cares.....but i been musing on that...sorry...the list......


 

[quote=JohnD]

I know.....nobody cares.....but i been musing on that...sorry...the list......[/quote]

Pity they don't!

At the time I didn't bat an eyelid, but as I matured I was very annoyed that Latin was removed from the syallabus and still believe it should be taught today.

Spanish for "yeast" is "levadura" but I'm not sure of the specific Spanish name for sourdough.

At any rate my "list" will be on hold until we get the rest of the data (other peoples lists) in which I assume are in the making.
But in the mean time we could put up less contentious entries as any bakers lexicon will concern itself with more than a few terms specific to sourdough.

But I'll have to come back tomorrow.

[quote=Danubian]
Jack, S cerevisae competes for maltose with lactics it also has a preference for wetter conditions as well as aerated conditions. To save typing out a new post you can see an earlier  thread [url=http://sourdough.com.au/?q=forum/topic/1093#comment-8473][b]here[/b][/url]. John and I were discussing some of these things earlier.
[/quote]

But the LB splits the starch into simple sugars, so the symbiosis is maintained. Sourdough cultures are remarkably stable.  In sourdough cultures that are infected with commercial yeast, the commercial yeast drops out within a few generations, perhaps because of the acid environment.

I'm not sure how this helps agreeing on terms

 

[quote=jacklang]

[quote=Danubian]
Jack, S cerevisae competes for maltose with lactics it also has a preference for wetter conditions as well as aerated conditions. To save typing out a new post you can see an earlier  thread [url=http://sourdough.com.au/?q=forum/topic/1093#comment-8473][b]here[/b][/url]. John and I were discussing some of these things earlier.
[/quote]

But the LB splits the starch into simple sugars, so the symbiosis is maintained. Sourdough cultures are remarkably stable.  In sourdough cultures that are infected with commercial yeast, the commercial yeast drops out within a few generations, perhaps because of the acid environment.

I'm not sure how this helps agreeing on terms

 

[/quote]

http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=leaven
[quote=jacklang]

[quote=Danubian]
Jack, S cerevisae competes for maltose with lactics it also has a preference for wetter conditions as well as aerated conditions. To save typing out a new post you can see an earlier  thread [url=http://sourdough.com.au/?q=forum/topic/1093#comment-8473][b]here[/b][/url]. John and I were discussing some of these things earlier.
[/quote]

But the LB splits the starch into simple sugars, so the symbiosis is maintained. Sourdough cultures are remarkably stable.  In sourdough cultures that are infected with commercial yeast, the commercial yeast drops out within a few generations, perhaps because of the acid environment.[bold added]


I'm not sure how this helps agreeing on terms[/quote]

It may or may not; however, I disagree with your statement I emboldened above. It's a matter of record Lactics are restricted in their population growth and acid production in doughs with an amylase deficiency - something we contend with in Australia as our grain has a consistent amylase deficiency. As you may or may not be aware we resort to the addition of diastatic malt flour to offset this problem. I'm not aware that under normal circumstances lactics synthesise amyolitic enzymes. To that extent they are dependent on flour enzymes. If you have a reference that establishes the ability of Lactics to synthesise amyolitic enzymes I'd be keen to read about that.

It may also be revealing that the dominant yeast species endemic in sourdoughs that have a symbiotic relationship with Lactics do not metabolise maltose, excepting one, S cerevisiae. S cerevisiae is also found in sourdoughs in small numbers - they never reach ascendency or dominance. I made reference to [url=http://sourdough.com.au/?q=forum/topic/1093#comment-8492][b] Spicher et. al., 1979[/b][/url] in the same thread.
But as you say conventional thinking attributes it to the mix of organic acids that dominate sourdough.

I agree, sourdoughs are remarkably stable, and the thread in that earlier link I posted was originally concerned with just that.


Now back to yeasted doughs as opposed to sourdoughs. I reiterate they were, and still are, two different systems. That the relatively new practitioners - non trade - have mixed this all up and confused the language may demonstrate a superficial or cursory understanding of the traditions and or the basics of the biology. I know that's a big call but that is my call none the less.


[quote=jacklang]http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/preferments.pdf
[/quote]

So far so good in my opinion until I got to this: [i]"..While a rye culture is always of comparatively stiff texture, ....[/i] [emphasis mine]

This is definitely not the case; Spicher & Stephan document several specific rye methods with absorption rates of 120% and greater.

I'd also take issue with one other thing in the final part in point form, but it's not critical to this exercise here.
Scusilo John,ma lievito madre (I leaven mother, roughly translated here!) Il risultato della fermentazione spontanea di acqua e farina (basically, resulted from spontaneous fermentation of flour and water!) So madre or mother does fit, my source is Sorelle Simili "Pane e Roba Dolce"
 Un Classico della tradizione Italiana
 editore Avallardi


Che cosa puo io dica?
Il Jeremy, i ringraziamenti, ma giusto perché usa il termine non significa suo un utile un? L'abbondanza di persone nell'uso di cultura popolare parole improprie. ..even gli scrittori. ..we sono dopo che qualcosa più preciso, no? lol.


 

at your pleasure .......

FunctionMy adopted termsDefinition
Inoculating cultureStarterA small portion of mature sourdough used to inoculate or "start" a larger  batch of flour and water referred to as "sourdough or leaven". At maturity the original weight of "starter" is removed to inoculate or start the next sourdough or leaven, hence it is not included in the yield calculations.
Inoculating dough
Sourdough/leaven
A portion of the total bread dough flour weight inoculated by a starter to form a mature dough of endemic flora - including but not limited to: lactobacillus, and endemic yeasts - used to aerate and produce bread dough maturity. Sourdough/leaven can be a single stage fermentation or multiple stage fermentation to maturity.

Bread dough
Bread dough       

A dough containing all the final ingerdients, including but not limited to: sourdough/leaven, that is used as the final dough in the bread making process. This dough is baked to form bread.












There's more but since this is my list and not an agreed or preferential list I'll leave it to be shredded first.
Sì, questi termini sono utilizzati da cibo giornalisti e scrittori che prendere in prestito le parole, per non dire nulla di rivendicare il fatto niente di più sostanziale di una voce.

Abbiamo bisogno di qualcosa di concreto e praticabile, ma stiamo facendo progressi!

Un semplice ma accurato lessico è auspicabile.

You are right, and I was too hasty in my statement about the function of LB.

You ask for references on amyolitic activity of lactobacilli

In K&L, quoting Giraud et al Appl Microbol, Biotecnol 41:456 (1991), and M. Martinez-Anaya et al Food Sci Technol Intl 3:123 (1997) it says

"Amylotic activity has been described for some strains of L.acidophilus, L.cellobiosus, and L.plantarum, species common in sourdoughs. Within different strains of lactobacilli screened for this activity L.sanfrancisensis showed the lowest alpha amylase activity and L.plantarum the highest."

No doubt a Google search will show other papers such as http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=496304 

"Fermentation by Lactobacillus fermentum Ogi E1 of different combinations of carbohydrates occurring naturally in cereals: consequences on growth energetics and alpha-amylase production. " Calderon, M : Loiseau, G : Guyot, J P Int-J-Food-Microbiol. 2003 Jan 25; 80(2): 161-9

However I agree it is not the dominant source of starch breakdown in sourdoughs, One route appears to be acid hydrolisis of starch (which maybe why doughs thin as they mature), with the common lactobacilli capable of fermenting the resulting pentoses, hexoses and di-saccharides such as sucrose and maltose, excreting glucose for the yeasts to feed on. In particular L.sanfranciscensis is specific for maltose. The K&L paper goes on to give details of the maltose transport system. "Maltose phosphorylase, a key enzyme  has been found in L.sanfrancisensis, L.pontis, L.reuteri, and L.fermentum."

Although S.cervisiae can ferment maltose it is acid sensitive and "results in the elimination of baker's yeast within two transfers"

The terms "aceto biga" and "poolish naturale" are used (rarely) for sourdough sponges...

 

 

 

 


 

Assomigli a lievito naturale a me?
http://www.dietaround.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32812
http://www.dietaround.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32816
Ma che cosa que conosco comunque? Appena gradisco allo sciocco intorno con pasta come un capretto!

Ciao!
What happened to all the knit pickers; there must be a skills shortage!!
Don't know about you but I just polished off a bottle of wine and have to go to work tomorrow, but I am sure you will roust a few!

Madre mia!
Jeremy I have trained myself to stop at the 3/4 mark now. That extra 25% creates havoc in a highly disproportionate manner.

lol...its "nit".or are we starting a knitting club?

I very much like those terms D-man. They (so far) exclude unnecessary ones, and are operative terms rather than academic.

Rather than "sourdough/leaven", i favour the term "sourdough leaven".... exactly what it is.

"Starter" is clear and unambiguous....as would be "starter culture".

"Leaven dough" is the dough stage?...as opposed to "yeast dough".

The bread is "sourdough leaven bread"?.....

These simple basic terms would allow a clear correspondence, and by default,all other terms (poolish) etc apply to either hybrid or yeast tech.


 

Ok, I agree with simplicity, there's no need to complicate it unnecessarily; simple but elegant!

It might be prudent to use "leaven [bread] dough" to distinguish it more clearly from the preceeding step.

 

 

"starter culture"

"sourdough leaven"

"leaven bread dough"

I like that.....next?


 

 

 

Why use two words when one will do?

starter

leaven

dough

[quote=jacklang]

 Why use two words when one will do?

starter

leaven

dough

[/quote]

While I agree with Jack on the 1st 2 terms, I think just dough is too ambiguous. I find more meaning in naturally-leavened dough...but now that seems too much of a mouthful?


[quote=jacklang] 

Why use two words when one will do?

starter

leaven

dough

[/quote]

They have become attenuated through misuse and now require aid!

Why use one word when it doesnt fully articulate the meaning required?

D-man is on the money. Specificity,unambiguousness..... .God save us from verisimilitudinousnessity.


 

versimili...what?
at your pleasure .......

FunctionMy adopted termsDefinition
Inoculating cultureStarterA small portion of mature sourdough used to inoculate or "start" a larger  batch of flour and water referred to as "sourdough or leaven". At maturity the original weight of "starter" is removed to inoculate or start the next sourdough or leaven, hence it is not included in the yield calculations.
Inoculating dough
Sourdough/leaven
A portion of the total bread dough flour weight inoculated by a starter to form a mature dough of endemic flora - including but not limited to: lactobacillus, and endemic yeasts - used to aerate and produce bread dough maturity. Sourdough/leaven can be a single stage fermentation or multiple stage fermentation to maturity.
Bread dough
Bread dough       

A dough containing all the final ingredients, including but not limited to: sourdough/leaven, that is used as the final dough in the bread making process. This dough is baked to form bread.

Sourdough Leaven Calculation
Sourdough Leaven Content
The percentage of flour (based on the total bread dough flour weight) that is starter inoculated to be fermented. At maturity returned to the balance of the base bread dough formula. This quantity is expressed as a percentage,

eg. sourdough leaven 30% ~ 30kg

Base formula:

     Ingredients        %        Wt
  • Flour/meal     100       100.000
  • water              63        63.000
  • salt                  2          2.000
  • Total DY        165       165.000
Detailed formula:

    Sourdough Leaven 30%
     *Starter                          1.500
  • flour/meal        100       30.000
  • water                60       18.000
  • Total DY          160       48.000
    Leaven Bread Dough

  • Sourdough Leaven         48.000
  • flour/meal                    70.000
  • water +/-                     45.000
  • Salt                               2.000
  • Total DY                     165.000
* starter not included in the yield calculation needed for the next inoculation.  











 

whoa , what about the sponge step?

This is my daily bread

Sponge

100% flour

50% water

5% starter

Ferment for 24 hours at 27C

Dough

100% flour

80% water

75% sponge

3% salt

2 hour bulk fermentation and 2 hours proof

Bake at 220C for 45 minutes, with steam in the first minute

 

Overall:

100% flour

70% water

2% salt

1.6% starter

 


 

The starter shouldn't be included in the yield as it's removed for the next days inoculation, but I guess I should have included it in the example, See my edit.

However, the purpose of the formula is to show the sourdough leaven content and its relationship to the base formula and yield. The "sponge" step is there by the name of "sourdough leaven", At this point I considered the conditions such as temp. and ripening/rest time superfluous to the example.

You are making the assumption that the starter is removed ("old dough") rather than a separate starter culture is maintained.

I suspect most home bakers, who bake irregularly, maintain a separate culture rather than rely on the baking process to refresh the culture.

Anyway at 0.16% it will make little difference to the final yield. There will be more process loss than that. Unless, of course, you are calling the entire sponge the starter.

Strictly breads made by perpetuating old dough (pate fermentee, vielle pate), removing part of the dough for next time, may not be sourdough. It's essentially a straight dough method. Because of the high dilution the culture is not particularly acid, and C. Cerevisiae (Bakers yeast) can propagate.

Really it doesnt matter how the bread is made or what % are used, i reiterate my original comments that its about ingredients......Flour water salt,no matter how its done....excluding levitation.

What makes the sourdough process different from conventional bread is  the  polyculture...i think the most useful defining terms may be with regard to the culture from seed to baked loaf.

The basic terminology is all that is needed to clearly delineate the genuine product?


 


 

[quote=jacklang]

You are making the assumption that the starter is removed ("old dough") rather than a separate starter culture is maintained.[/quote]

I haven't assumed, this is my practice! It's a starter, not "old dough" as it's removed at the sourdough leaven maturity, not incorporated into the leaven bread dough.

[quote=jacklang]I suspect most home bakers, who bake irregularly, maintain a separate culture rather than rely on the baking process to refresh the culture.[/quote]

You may well be correct. But that will necessitate a further calculation to balance the formula - the flour and water weight of the starter if incorporated in the leaven bread dough, as it will alter the base formula - which is not needed in the format used in the example. Some formulas require quite large amounts of starter which will need to be accounted for to achieve balance.

I think you are on dangerous ground here. Since neither the flour, the water or the bakery are particularly sterile, almost all doughs are poly culture. Commercial bakers yeast may be a mix of yeasts. Poly culture would include sourdough flavoured yeasted breads.

You may perhaps mean sourdough breads are where the principle leavening agent is a symbiosis of yeast and lactobacilla, but that would include salt raised bread and exclude old dough/pate fermentee/vielle pate, which I think is not your intention.

[quote=JohnD]

Really it doesnt matter how the bread is made or what % are used, i reiterate my original comments that its about ingredients......Flour water salt,no matter how its done....excluding levitation.

What makes the sourdough process different from conventional bread is  the  polyculture...i think the most useful defining terms may be with regard to the culture from seed to baked loaf.

The basic terminology is all that is needed to clearly delineate the genuine product?
[/quote]

Yes, the culture and its source is to be defined, but you must be patient![img]http://sourdough.com.au/modules/smileys/packs/example/wink.png[/img]

You're correct, the volumes are irrelevant. But I wanted to clear a common source of confusion. It's the concept of "Sourdough leaven percentage" that is important not the formula per se, make the volumes what ever you want. The sourdough leaven percentage is simple and ensures formula balance, I wanted to show it with example.


[quote=Danubian]

You may well be correct. But that will necessitate a further calculation to balance the formula - the flour and water weight of the starter if incorporated in the leaven bread dough, as it will alter the base formula - which is not needed in the format used in the example. Some formulas require quite large amounts of starter which will need to be accounted for to achieve balance.

[/quote]

1.6% in my example (say 16g in 1Kg) is not enough to unbalance the formula. More is lost on the side of the bowl and other production losses.

Are you calling the sponge  "starter" or even "leaven", rather than the initial inoculation?

Many bakers, and most larger commercial bakers, maintain separate cultures for consistency.

Funny, I thought the SDL% was in the "less contentious" category.

In my format your formula looks like

 

Sponge

Flour 100%

Water 60%

Starter  (1.5/30) = 5%

 

Dough

Flour 100%

Sponge (48/70) = 68.5%

Water  (45/70) = 64.2%

Salt  (2/70) = 2.85%

 

Overall

Flour 100%

Water (18+45)/(30+70) = 63%

Starter (1.5/100) = 1.5%

Salt (2/100) = 2%

 

 

Now we can compare: In fact our formulas are remarkably similar.

I use a 50% hydration sponge, yours is wetter at 64%. I use slightly more sponge, 75% against 65%, but overall similar amounts of starter, and the same amount of salt. My dough is little wetter overall, 70% rather than 63%.

Overall I would expect my bread to have somewhat bigger holes (wetter dough) and a slightly sourer taste (more sponge, and a stiffer sponge)


 

[quote=jacklang]

Unless, of course, you are calling the entire sponge the starter.

Strictly breads made by perpetuating old dough (pate fermentee, vielle pate), removing part of the dough for next time, may not be sourdough. It's essentially a straight dough method. Because of the high dilution the culture is not particularly acid, and C. Cerevisiae (Bakers yeast) can propagate.[/quote]

No, entire "sourdough leaven" is part of the base formula added to the balance of the ingredients of the leaven bread dough. The "starter" is [a] mature sourdough leaven from a previous batch that is added aside from the base formula which incorporates the sourdough leaven and leaven bread dough in their entirety. It maintains the base formula balance, inoculates the SDL and renews itself (starter) each time!

My intention with the example was to clear a common confusion; in retrospect perhaps I should leave it for another thread. I doesn't seem to be helpful at this time.

Yes, some commercial and industrial bakeries use a pure culture on which they draw, but other industrial bakeries utilise the method in the example through automated means of fermentation tubes and deliver the SDL via air pressure pumps and conduits. The principle calculation methods of continous fermentation in automated systems with sepcific repeated parameters to achieve flora consistency is well understood.

But now we are getting off the track. Perhaps we can follow this up in another thread at another time.

You are seriously suggesting that the polyculture in a conventional yeasted bread dough is the equivalent of what is in a genuine sourdough?

Tiny amounts of ambient fermentation would not even rate in a cell count of a conventional yeast dough. It would be deemed a monoculture.

In any case,"read my lips", i said "the polyculture", not "polycultures",....and all that implies.

Commercial bakers yeast is one of the most intensley inbred microorganisms there is....it defines a monoculture mate...no polys here, no "may" about it.

As for salt rising bread,well its had such a massive groundswell of public opinion  behind it as the true sourdough,that i might just have to give ground here.

The idea about ingredients is really more for what is excluded. But when it is welded to criteria for the polyculture, it more clearly defines what is genuine .


 


Not sure what you are saying. Is this some kind of bread purity law that "real sourdough" is just flour water and salt (and culture).

Yeasted bread falls within this definition, unless you define the culture, and that needs to be done functionally:  lactobacilla and maltose negative acid resistant yeasts symbiosis. As Danubian said in his original post:

Sourdough  a mixture of cereal flour/meal and water that harbours dominant endemic populations of yeasts and lactobacillus in a symbiotic relationship fermenting endemic dough nutrients to aerate or leaven a dough typically used for "sourdough" bread

(not sure about "aerate", think of vollkorn danish rye, for example, nor about "fermenting endemic dough nutrients". Sourdough is also used for more than breads - crackers, muffins etc etc)

I also think its still sourdough if I add honey, vitamin C, seeds, or nuts, or onions or olives or raisins etc. or even saffron or spices.


pruning scissors and a spanking new Nimbus.....


click goes the shears boys, click, click, click!

Dont you mean click go the shears (insert nongender specific term), click click click.?

The problem with reductionist thinking is that it does not reflect observable reality, neither does it allow an integral assessment....(sourdough)bread is not just a quantifiable artifact,but is more actually within the domain of culture. We need to open up the discussion to the cultural aspects as well,which are in some respects more clearly definitive in fact than the purely scientific.

There is no question about what is genuine sourdough bread from a historical perspective for example.

If the baker chooses to add salamander testicles to the dough, it doesnt matter because these dont affect the actual fermentation,which,yes,is on a substrate of flour water and salt....what else.....the baker is adding to a genuine sourdough to create a cultural product (salamander are much loved by Venusians). And yes it is about purity,in the same way the Germans had their beer purity laws...to protect an authentic product from adulteration or misrepresentation,and to give it a defined status....which is why we are having this discussion, not just to establish its equation.


 

[quote=jacklang]


Not sure what you are saying. Is this some kind of bread purity law that "real sourdough" is just flour water and salt (and culture).[/quote]

In its strictest sense, yes; flour, water, and salt. The culture doesn't even need to be listed since it's derivative of the flour/meal. However, the culture [is] what turns "grain" into "sourdough leaven bread"!

[quote=Jacklang]Yeasted bread falls within this definition, unless you define the culture, and that needs to be done functionally:  lactobacilla and maltose negative acid resistant yeasts symbiosis. As Danubian said in his original post:

Sourdough  a mixture of cereal flour/meal and water that harbours dominant endemic populations of yeasts and lactobacillus in a symbiotic relationship fermenting endemic dough nutrients to aerate or leaven a dough typically used for "sourdough" bread

(not sure about "aerate", think of vollkorn danish rye, for example, nor about "fermenting endemic dough nutrients". Sourdough is also used for more than breads - crackers, muffins etc etc)[/quote]

Vollkorn danish rye and knackerbrot are somewhat aerated. I don't include crackers etc... as "sourdough leaven bread" because we know them perfectly well as "crackers" or "muffins". Sourdough may be used as an ingredient for whatever reason in whatever product but that doesn't make those final products "sourdough leaven bread".

[quote=Jacklang]I also think it's still sourdough if I add honey, vitamin C, seeds, or nuts, or onions or olives or raisins etc. or even saffron or spices.[/quote]

These additional food enrichments are superfluous to what turns grain/meal into sourdough leaven bread. Ascorbic; is rather like a process enhancer to exaggerate certain bread characteristics valued in some parts of western culture. Saffron may be similar to eastern cultural food preparation.

[quote=Jack Lang]

Why use two words when one will do?

starter

leaven

dough[/quote]

[quote=John D]Why use one word when it doesn't fully articulate the meaning required?[/quote]

If ever the true meanings of these words were rehabilitated and they bore their potency again; these single names would, as Jack suggested, be possible without loss.

 

I fully support the effort to define "real" sourdough bread. However I think it important not to over complicate the definition

My definition would be something like:

Sourdough Bread's main leavening agent is the fermentation of yeasts and lactobacillus in a symbiotic relationship.

Nothing more and nothing less is needed. No need to mention cereal or grains, or endemic or added culture, aeration, hand kneading or salamander testicles.

Gluten free breads may not have cereals or grains in the conventional sense, but can still be sourdough.

I mentioned saffron in a previous post as it is traditional for some Easter breads and buns.