Do breads with bakers yeast qualify as "sourdough"

Which statement do you agree with the most?

Please post a reply below if you have any comments to make.

NOTE: You must be a registered user to vote in polls. This is a feature of phpbb software that can not be currently changed (without a hack...which we'd rather not do). Register here: http://sourdough.com.au/phpBB/profile.php?mode=register

27 comments

A lot of the artisan bakers claim their bread is yeast free which is wrong.....that is partly due to the bakers ignorance as they only recognize yeast that is bought from bakery ingredient suppliers.

[quote="Graham"]
Yes, part of this perception was due to early 'yeast free' claims, but these days that has generally been changed to 'bakers yeast free' or 'no commercial yeast'.
[/quote]

G'day Graham, IMHO one can't even make the claim 'bakers yeast free', although 'no comercial yeast' may be closer to the truth.

I voted "Yeasted sourdough is the most suitable term for these breads" only because there doesn't seem to be a better descriptive word. I like Chembake's idea of l ll or lll. However you would have to pass the word around before anyone would know what that meant. So at this point in time, yeasted sourdough seems like a term that helps consumers understand what they might be buying. Your experience with bad "flavored" sourdough, Graham, was also my experience recently when I bought a so called "sourdough" boule from a store bakery. Yuck! It was no where near sourdough as it hadn't been fermented at all. It was flavored with a vinegar, it seemed to me. I wrote it up on my blog here:[url]http://northwestsourdough.wordpress.com/2007/04/13/bakery-sourdough/[/url]
I am a purist at this time as far as using only sourdough starters for sourdough bread, although I will use baking power, baking soda for muffins, cornbread etc (that is besides using sourdough starters in the quick bread recipes too). I say "at this time", because I do like to experiment, and I may want to try the pinch of yeast to hurry up the sourdough process someday. I will admit, it holds no attraction for me now, and I have gotten to the point where any bread which isn't naturally leavened tastes terrible and has a terrible texture to me. I am almost afraid of commercial yeast, as what it produces is so inferior to me, that I almost consider it the enemy! However, if I ran a commercial bakery, my mind might be changed by time constraints or other technical problems that I don't deal with in my kitchen. I wonder if using commercial yeast as a crutch would encourage further crutches, like the "sourdough flavoring" etc that seems to follow the need to hurry, or the brush on blistering glaze which covers the bread that I talked about on the blog. I guess the good thing about being a purist, is that you are not looking for crutches to speed up anything, but just a great tasting bread.
Teresa

I love your posts chembake, they do make me laugh! Im sure you also have the highest smiley count per post

Very Happy

personally i dont give a rats arse how sourdough is defined, as long as the baker is willing to give his/her own definition.

best regards to all

Black Dog

Very Happy

Smile

Sad

Surprised

Shocked

Confused

Cool

Laughing

[quote]
Chembake you can't answer questions can you? Just make simple minded responses in an attempt to hide from each point others
[/quote]

Whoa steve...

Surprised

I was only taking in a light manner... to create a term that you might like...say sourdon't

Laughing

I have no problem if you like it or not ....but if you take my comments seriously then you have a problem

Smile

Expert?

Surprised

Stevieboy,,,,I did not claim such, but I have extensive experience in many baking lines, 100% bakers yeast, traditional, and hybridized version...never I did have a problem...

Smile

Regarding letters, BBB or that lead to a b word....ppp that leads to a p word is not far apart from FFF that lead to an F word

Laughing

Regarding nutrition, I had also a subject like that during my studies...so I am certain I understand a little about it

Cool

Acceptance, reluctance or defiance?

Laughing

...that is relative to the consumers taste

Cool

steveboy....don't make anthills out of molehills..will you...

Laughing

Hi Steve and Chembake.

I wish you both the best of luck in battle.

Graham

Chembake you can't answer questions can you? Just make simple minded responses in an attempt to hide from each point others make.

If you?re such the expert (who spouts all he/she can to the uses of this site) why is it you have not imparted on us all what the tech term is for slow leaven bread that contains bakers yeast? Are you afraid to admit there is a descriptor for it, or you probably don't know? His would explain allot

Laughing

I will try one more time ? (quick do some research or call a friend)

Question: Why do you feel the need to use the word Sourdough as the descriptor for a product that already has one? BBBBB or PPPPPP

I?ll answer for you ....

Shocked

Answer 1. It would take to long to educate the consumer about BB or PP.
Answer 2. It?s easier to attach you product to one that is gaining more acceptance today.
Answer 3. The public has a perceived ?Health Value? to Sourdough so why not use that.

PS: sorry to get into an area you have no knowledge ?nutrition?.

Embarassed

So steve instead of calling it sourdough .. you will just call it sourdon't?

Laughing

No problem with that

Cool

But It will not be called Sourdough

Why do you need to try to take the discriptor (Sourdough) and apply it to what you wish to make. I wish to make Sourdough so whats yours called

>Chembake as you say Sunni and Shite are both Muslims...
>Sourdough and Balloon are both Bread. (Balloon Bread Tech Term defined by Sydney >university school of food science)
The difference with sourdough and normal yeast dough is that the latter if measured has higher specific volume due to the slightly different mechanism in leavening the dough.
Meanwhile the sourdough is heavier due to peculiarity of its biochemistry and microbiology.

>The discussion is too focused on yeast or not. Sourdough contains NO bakers yeast because >to make a Sourdough you need to go through the long fermentation process (9 to 12 hours) >I can understand how a Commercial Food tech can say "your a Purist it doesn?t matter ... >Getting the product out is what it all about"

Steve I understand that you have limited experience with the variants of sourdough baking and that is the prevailing reason why you have difficulty sorting out things.

But BTW
You miss also the fact that some long fermentation yeast raised dough can be bulk fermented for more than 24 hours if desired and the yeast quantity is carefully controlled.

>But I can't understand how someone who should >be using science will not use the basic >principles i.e.: purity, What is it in the beginning.

Let get this straight, when I make bread regarding whether its naturally leavened or yeast raised I use principles of science to make the process efficient.

>My wife has a Masters Food Microbiology specializing in fermented food products...Sydney >University

So what ? is your wife a baker,,,,nope,,,she only eats bread, she might be specializing in fermented foods but not specifically sourdough. If she happens she dabbles in sourdough, its more in the mind set of an academician who can discuss the theory but don?t even know how to make such bread properly.

>"Sourdough is a fermented dough, the microbiology of the ingredients is changed >(particularly the carbohydrates) over the extended fermentation period. Yeasted breads >(Balloon)are made with introduced yeast, it rises so quickly you do not achieve any level of >conversion."

SIGH!
I am sorry to say ?.
You don?t understand the biochemistry involved in the fermentation, but I am not blaming you as its not your fault?. Better consult your wife for explanations.

>My Familly has been baking In Australia since 1847 and our bakery puts out several tonne of >Real Sourdough 6 days a week and I see no need for Bakers Yeast..... So WHAT is the >problem

So what is the problem then..? if you have no need for bakers yeast then do you want that other bakeries will follow suit?
There are bakeries in Australia that combine two leavening systems bakers yeast and natural fermentation.
Think about it Germany the leader in sourdough style breadmaking is even using more bakers yeast than natural leaven and often applies hybridized methods to get better processing efficiency and while maintaining the tastes .

If there are arguments, it always comes from the beginners and amateurs forum and newsgroups never from the true bakery professionals.

>Until last month the head of the School of Food Science Syd Uni Prof Ken Buckel (retired) >has no problem defining Sourdough culture from Bakers Yeast " Sourdough, the >microrganisims are resident in the flour"

That is already a well known fact?.maybe you don?t know about it? Keep it in mind always hmmn,,?

>Myth: It comes from the air in the bakery
>Confidential: Culture is made from the same flour you make the dough from

Confidential..? what?s so secret about it?.? Or you don?t want other people to know that you are ignorant of that fact..?

>Not for long...... "Sourdough" is coming .

Well sourdough has already arrived since decades ago?.I thought you were baking bread since 1847 then how come you only know that sourdough is just arriving? are you really serious on what you stating here?.?

>If what you say is true why so many new Real sourdough Bakers.

I am not denying that?but I am certain that you are misinformed?.that many real sourdough bakers also play equally with pure sourdough as with hybridized methods..

>I'm not the Purist you fear ... debase so much in earlier post. I'm in it for the sucess and the >future for my family

The future would be better for your family if you stop being narrow minded .and letting go of thing that bothers you!

>I'm not the techno fearing baker thats done it for years .... 3 years ago I was in >communications tech

What techno babble is that??I am having doubts about the veracity of your claim? If you are in communication technology you should be broadminded as you know that good communication will remove barriers, but unfortunately you inevitably created one!

>I'm the baker that started 2 years ago with 70Kg a day now we do near 2000 Kg 6 days a >week ..... All Sourdough. No addvertising. All word of mouth. This tells volums, people are >sick of modified food. This is not a trend that will fade away. We are not eating your stuff...
CONGRATULATIONS?.! But I had related experience also?I used to work (overseas ) for a bakery in the past where I introduce natural fermentation process ; at the start the bakery were just producing 50 kg a day of such dough, but later they were able to reach production output of 1500 kg 2000kg a day( by mechanizing the processes) while the rest are normal bread which is double in quantity to the naturally fermented products.
Yes, it might be unbelievable to you but the bakers there are able to manage doing two different dough?s in the same plant but in different buildings harmoniously!
BTW
Well I am not forcefeeding you to eat my bread?! But the trend is more efficiency and consistency in the long run means hybridized methods will stay with the traditional methods
WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!

[quote]
...from chembake
Time involved in its manufacture is the major reason why sourdough is re-engineered, another is changing tastes, many people specially the younger generation cannot appreciate the full flavored version that is best obtained by natural process. If the bakery wants to grab more customers they must modify the tastes of their bread to get better sales.Purist will despise that modifications but the particular ?inferior? product still has a place in the market.
[/quote]

Not for long...... "Sourdough" is coming

If what you say is true why so many new Real sourdough Bakers.

I'm not the Purist you fear ... debase so much in earlier post. I'm in it for the sucess and the future for my family

I'm not the techno fearing baker thats done it for years .... 3 years ago I was in communications tech

I'm the baker that started 2 years ago with 70Kg a day now we do near 2000 Kg 6 days a week ..... All Sourdough. No addvertising. All word of mouth. This tells volums, people are sick of modified food. This is not a trend that will fade away. We are not eating your stuff...

Exclamation

Chembake as you say Sunni and Shite are both Muslims...
Sourdough and Balloon are both Bread. (Balloon Bread Tech Term defined by Sydney university school of food science)

[quote="chembake"]
I don't see the point of being a purist with regards to definitions...
A sourdough made with culture and yeast or just plain leaven culture can be compared to a Sunni or Shite Muslims...
They are still Muslims...there is no doubt about that...
[/quote]

The discussion is too focused on yeast or not. Sourdough contains NO bakers yeast because to make a Sourdough you need to go through the long fermentation process (9 to 12 hours) I can understand how a Commercial Food tech can say "your a Purist it doesn?t matter ... Getting the product out is what it all about" But I can't understand how someone who should be using science will not use the basic principles i.e.: purity, What is it in the beginning.

My wife has a Masters Food Microbiology specializing in fermented food products...Sydney University

"Sourdough is a fermented dough, the microbiology of the ingredients is changed (particularly the carbohydrates) over the extended fermentation period. Yeasted breads (Balloon)are made with introduced yeast, it rises so quickly you do not achieve any level of conversion."

Very Happy

My Familly has been baking In Australia since 1847 and our bakery puts out several tonne of Real Sourdough 6 days a week and I see no need for Bakers Yeast..... So WHAT is the problem

Until last month the head of the School of Food Science Syd Uni Prof Ken Buckel (retired) has no problem defining Sourdough culture from Bakers Yeast " Sourdough, the microrganisims are resident in the flour"

Myth: It comes from the air in the bakery

Sad

Confidential: Culture is made from the same flour you make the dough from

Very Happy

I can see both sides, some like Broccoli some don't, some like spinach some dont.
The other side of the coin is, try marketing a Cubic Zirconia as a diamond without calling it a "Created Diamond" and see what happens to you.

Personally speaking if it's not a 100% naturally leavened bread then it's not Sourdough, its Sourdough Flavoured Bread, and yes, some of it is bloody nice to eat.

Thanks Bill, and Chembake too.

It has been great to see the perpective of a food technologist with sourdough experience. Sometimes it's easy to forget that there are humans behind products with numbers for labels. So, once more Chembake, thanks for joining in.

Graham

I know what sourdough is and its not that all the sour versions...but the ones with subtle flavors that cant be obtained by normal bakers yeast fermentation....some have the tanginess of the san francisco others have the mild flavors like the one made with French levain.

I am not marketing techno sourdough either.....But I am no ecstatic either that traditional sourdough should be the only bread that is construed as good...
Hybrid and sourdough flavored are equally good ...
They are just all bread with different characteristics....

Food technologist don't harbor any fanacism like many artisan bakers do...
They are more open minded with regards to such things....

All bread has its own unique qualities and it has its own particular clientile... but my kids hate eating traditional sourdough regardless if its mild or somewhat acidic.... but my father loves it more than any bread...

Difference..? kids taste buds are more sensitive.... common bread which old people despise as tasteless is desired.as to them its delicious..

Your experience and assessment of tradititional sourdough is very different to mine. Most traditional sourdough bakeries in Australia use a technique that produces a more subtle flavour than many hybrids and techno artisan breads (such as San Francisco Sourdough).

It's odd tasting techno sourdough that is more sour than the bread it is trying to immitate. It is as if the technologist has missed the point: that the aesthetic of sourdough does not have to be about 'sourness'.

The bakers I have most to do with are not trying to make a sour bread. They are trying to use their skills to leaven bread naturally. Sourness is a manageable consequence of natural fermentation. The idea that a sour flavour alone indicates quality bread or natural fermentation is repungent to many.

Motivation has a huge influence on how most people perform artisan tasks. I can understand that it would be possible to wake up in the morning and think "I want to make the best damn sourdough-style bread using the latest chemical developments in food technology". That's actually a radical thing to do from a purists perpective.

But it is a very different motivation to a baker who wants to simply mix flour and water and manage their own live culture. The connection between baker and process is far stronger than the food processor using third-party products to immitate consequences of fermentation.

I am not trying to annoy you or other technologists. You have already shown an awareness of distinctions between traditional and chemical sourdough. What concerns me is the way techno-sourdough is simply branded 'sourdough'. It's a different product to traditional sourdough and should be labelled as such (as you pointed out earlier). Bread eaters should be made more aware of distinctions in process types.

[quote]
With so many variations already available, is a saving in processing time the main reason for re-engineering sourdough through food technology? If processing time was not such an issue, would there still be a demand for techno sourdough.
[/quote]

Time involved in its manufacture is the major reason why sourdough is re-engineered, another is changing tastes, many people specially the younger generation cannot appreciate the full flavored version that is best obtained by natural process. If the bakery wants to grab more customers they must modify the tastes of their bread to get better sales.Purist will despise that modifications but the particular ?inferior? product still has a place in the market.

Sourdough is not looked by all individuals as based only by the traditional methods. As the hybridized sourdough is already in existent for some time and many bakers throughout the world is practicing that methodology since the invention of the bakers yeast, there is a need to see this particular baked product in different perspective.
If you look at the research literature of sourdough bread making , the traditionalist point 100% bakers yeast free is becoming a minor part.
Germany being the leader in sourdough bread manufacture is overwhelmed with hybridized versions that there is an apprehension that the natural way to make such bread will become extinct in time.
It is followed suit by many European states and if you look at what is happening in North America the bakery that makes the hybridized version is much in greater numbers than the one following the traditional methods.

Bakers should not be overcome by the ?romanticism of sourdough?, they must move on in accordance with changing and varying tastes . To keep on arguing that the only bread that is considered as sourdough is the naturally made one is like the mentality of the Al Qaeda and Taliban that society must return to the medieval state so that the purity of existence can be maintained through the narrow interpretation of the Shariah law.
They must broaden their perspective if they want to improve their breadmaking business and to be abreast with the evolving breadmaking technology.

If you ask the young people how do naturally leavened bread taste, many of them will say it taste awful?however the hybridized and even the sourdough flavored version are assessed as better tasting than the so called traditional version.

The real reason why sourdough purist insist in their views is IMO the fact is most of these individuals belong to the baby boomers which have already weakened taste buds that cannot appreciate bread that does not have the robust and strong flavors. It is a fact that when people get older their sensory faculties is already handicapped so the common commercial bread is seen as bland tasting and therefore inferior.

Thanks for your frankness, Chembake. It's interesting to see this other perspective. I think many traditionalists see the traditional way of making sourdough as something that already has many technological variations in its traditional format, particularly when it comes to the many ways of fermenting dough and the types of flour and other available ingredients.

With so many variations already available, is a saving in processing time the main reason for re-engineering sourdough through food technology? If processing time was not such an issue, would there still be a demand for techno sourdough?

Graham

[quote]
>The base mix for a tradititional sourdough bread is flour, salt and >water. Are there base additives for techno-artisans making >sourdough? (e.g. an acidulant, ???, ???)
[/quote]

Yeah ?the traditional sourdough consist only of four ingredients as you mentioned.The additive that is a must is the starter<G>
But for your so called techno sourdough its more a complex matter as it does not only contain the mentioned ingredients but also acidulant such as citric and lactic acid added intentionally as well as bakers yeast .
Many of the techno sourdough contains dried sourdough starter plus acidulants but is usually leavened by bakers yeast. So it belong to the category of the sourdough flavored bread

[quote]
>Is 'additive' an offensive word to a food technologist, who would (I >assume) see the additive as being a purposeful 'ingredient', similar >to the way traditional bakers see salt and leaven?
[/quote]

Not really, an additive is just like any ingredient but is incorporated for functional reasons.
[quote]
>I would like to qualify the 'bad' qualities of the bread in my previous >post: It was soft and squishy like a doughnut, the crumb fell to bits >and the 'sour' taste was a novelty flavour, being released after >several seconds of chewing, similar to the delayed release of >flavouring in some sweets.
[/quote]

Well if your taste is used to lean dough then that would be your opinion with these modified formulations which is more of a ?chemical? bread with heaps of additive numbers included in it.

[quote]
>Has the food technologist responsible for this bread stuffed-up >because they have not been able to seamlessly integrate their >flavours within a traditional (sourdough) context? What do you think >the brief of the client was that this technologist was trying to satisfy? >How much freedom to play do they/you have when designing foods >like this?
[/quote]
Designing new foods( as applied to the item you displayed) is based on the target such as improving the quality of commercial bread

Food technology look at things from functional point of view.
What makes sourdough distinct it has a slight tanginess and unique flavor.
How can I simulate that but without the need for doing it the old fashioned way; the easiest way is to add a freezed dried or dried sourdough as that will confer some flavor .
Its likely the guy formulating these products is not very familiar with traditional breadmaking methods. He is cocky to think that with his chemistry set he can concoct a bread of the same kind as the real thing.

On the other hand a food technologist who had some background in traditional sourdough baking will approach the formulation cautiously ,look at it from the basis for the original material and what ever result must pass the sensory or taste panel .
He should adapt the traditional fermentation and processing but improves the efficiency by modification of some processing parameters. That is what the German food technologist are doing in their industrial plant in central Germany making 100% naturally fermented sourdough bread.
Other bakers there to improve the processing efficiency by adding bakers yeast at certain percentage to accelerate the proofing.

That bread was formulated with the thought that by adding dried sourdough starter to normal dough he can improve the quality of the product.It can be acceptable to many people but not to sourdough purist.
The goal is not to duplicate the real thing but just to add nuance of taste reminiscent of sourdough to that particular bread.

Hi Chembake

The base mix for a tradititional sourdough bread is flour, salt and water. Are there base additives for techno-artisans making sourdough? (e.g. an acidulant, ???, ???)

Is 'additive' an offensive word to a food technologist, who would (I assume) see the additive as being a purposeful 'ingredient', similar to the way traditional bakers see salt and leaven?

I would like to qualify the 'bad' qualities of the bread in my previous post: It was soft and squishy like a doughnut, the crumb fell to bits and the 'sour' taste was a novelty flavour, being released after several seconds of chewing, similar to the delayed release of flavouring in some sweets.

Has the food technologist responsible for this bread stuffed-up because they have not been able to seamlessly integrate their flavours within a traditional (sourdough) context? What do you think the brief of the client was that this technologist was trying to satisfy? How much freedom to play do they/you have when designing foods like this?

Lots of questions, i know.
Graham

[quote]
I have to be blunt and say that the best bread I have had has been from fanatical artisan bakers. The fanatics have a way of sticking to an ideology and not looking for technological short-cuts. Perhaps the technology does exist to make a good techno-artisan bread...but I have not sampled it (or if I did sample it the people who made it could not let me know of the technology within...for my own protection of course).
[/quote]

These so called fanatic bakers had been practicing their craft that it already becomes normal to them as breathing. They did not do anything else so that is one reason that their mindset are restricted?Their vision of things is either black and white?
Anybody who do the same thing can master every detail of it just like any other art.

[quote]
Below is the worst 'sourdough' bread I have ever tasted. It really doesn't deserve to be called sourdough, any kind of sourdough. Urgently need to know of more positive sourdough food technology situations before late onset cartoon madness overtakes me.
[/quote]

That is a version of sourdough flavored vienna bread of the worstr kind.
It does not even have any acidulant.

[quote]
Urgently need to know of more positive sourdough food technology situations before late onset cartoon madness overtakes me.
[/quote]

The sourdough bakers in one industrial bakery in Germany are doing just that?I can?t just remember the name.
It?s a applying food technology to make an efficient use of traditional methods ( no added bakers yeast).

Chembake I'm glad you have joined this forum. It is true that fanatics are narrow minded. What I like about this century the most is that it is possible to have a narrow focus and still consider other practices without being reactive against them (at least in the postmodern part of the world - easily identified as that part of the world [i]not[/i] showing cartoon madness).

So your broadminded approach is very appealing. But what gets in the way is that the people that buy bread are often not aware of a greater 'bread discourse'. Imagine we were serving customers at a bakery and explaining to them the difference between leavening variations, using language that you and I are familiar with in the trade. We would take an average 15 minutes per customer. And then they wouldn't buy the bread anyway because we had mentioned 'technology' or 'additive' too many times.

[quote]
Therefore a sourdough whether traditional made or hybrid its still considered a sourdough.
They are considered as type I and type II
To expand it further I don?t mind calling the type III sourdough as sourdough as well....but with a different named....sourdough flavored bread... Cool
[/quote]

I like your solution. You can get this past the marketing department at which bakery?

Razz

In Australia, bread-eaters became accustomed to 'sourdough' describing a bread with no commercial yeast added. Yes, part of this perception was due to early 'yeast free' claims, but these days that has generally been changed to 'bakers yeast free' or 'no commercial yeast'. It is worth remembering that whichever way American sourdough has traveled since, those original 'Sourdoughs' mining Alaska were not receiving regular deliveries from yeast factories.

As far as technology and artisan bread goes, when you replace an artisan skill (such as producing flavour from long fermentation) with a flavouring additive in an instant dough, it is a clear reduction of artisan baker practice. You could probably say that the food technologist uses their artisan skill to produce that additive. So maybe we should be celebrating food technologists as the new artisans of baking?

Wink

I have to be blunt and say that the best bread I have had has been from fanatical artisan bakers. The fanatics have a way of sticking to an ideology and not looking for technological short-cuts. Perhaps the technology does exist to make a good techno-artisan bread...but I have not sampled it (or if I did sample it the people who made it could not let me know of the technology within...for my own protection of course).

Below is the worst 'sourdough' bread I have ever tasted. It really doesn't deserve to be called sourdough, [i]any[/i] kind of sourdough. Urgently need to know of more positive sourdough food technology situations before late onset cartoon madness overtakes me.

Graham

[img]http://sourdough.com.au/images/feature/cg_sourdough_ingredients_MG_6356.jpg[/img]
[img]http://sourdough.com.au/images/feature/cg_sourdough_unpacked_MG_6358.jpg[/img]
[img]http://sourdough.com.au/images/feature/cg_sourdough_packed_MG_6351.jpg[/img]
[img]http://sourdough.com.au/images/feature/cg_american_pie_MG_6370.jpg[/img]

Well it had been my experience that working in bakeries you need to expand you ideas ...

Cool

I have met so many bakers that are narrowminded...that looked at bread not made by what they are accustomed to as crap....
In fact I came to argue a lot with these fanatical guys.

Sad

a few times...

I have been a baker and bakery technologist for over 30 years and have undergone long and wide experience in bread making and baking as a whole.that spans from bread cakes, biscuits manufacture , patsserie and even confectionery.

Smile

I have been involved in bakery R &D for a long time also..

I have also a chemistry and food technology background so I look at things from a different perspective than ordinary bakers.

I sometimes jokingly nicknamed these narrow-minded bakers as sourdough Osamas

Laughing

to their chagrin...

Smile

I don't see the point of being a purist with regards to definitions...
A sourdough made with culture and yeast or just plain levain culture can be compared to a Sunni or Shite muslims...
They are still muslims...there is no doubt about that...
Its sad to say that .....
They are all susceptible to cartoon madness

Laughing

Sourdough bakers from two schools of thought will not end arguing (even with their reputation on the line ) that what they believe and are making is the true sourdough....

If people want to be specific with what kind of sourdough then they should call it traditional sourdough( using pure leaven with no added bakers yeast)
Meanwhile the other kind can be called hybrid sourdoughs

What thing that I don?t like to call is yeast free bread...in many traditionally leavened bread ....that is ridiculous ....

Razz

What makes such bread rise .....are still .yeast (and bacteria) but there are still yeasts! so yeast free is totally an absurdity...

Razz

In the same way...some Aussies think that there is no dog in the Australian desert ,,,, but a Dingo...but these animals belongs to the dog family.

Cool

Therefore a sourdough whether traditional made or hybrid its still considered a sourdough.
They are considered as type I and type II
To expand it further I don?t mind calling the type III sourdough as sourdough as well....but with a different named....sourdough flavored bread...

Cool

Cool

In these new century we must expand our perpective about bread...including sourdoughs...

Cool

This poll came about because of my use of the term "yeasted sourdough" while visiting Victoria. I found that many 100% sourdough bakers did not like the term, and even some hybrid bakers.

Watch this Quicktime Movie with Jay, from Milawa Factory Bakery (thanks for the use of your video camera, Jay and Hannah) [url]http://www.sourdough.com.au/video/milawa/milawa_jay_comment_low.mov[/url]

A higher quality version of this movie is available at [url]http://www.sourdough.com.au/video/[/url]

Keep in mind that Milawa Factory Bakery produce both "hybrid" (very few people like that term, including Jay) and 100% sourdough.

For what it's worth, my current view is that "yeasted sourdough" is a friendlier term than "hybrid". If it is causing confusion in the market place, then an alternative to "yeasted sourdough" is worth discussing.

My own sourdoughs have never contained bakers yeast but I have eaten hybrid breads all over Sydney and found them to be better eating than straight yeast bread. I think they are distinguished from basic yeast bread because of higher quality ingredients (usually organic) and much longer fermentation times (usually via a retarder).

If the hybrids were being sold simply as "sourdough" then that would definately be confusing for consumers. As Jay says in the video, "a sourdough is a sourdough".

Is San Francisco Sourdough a type of "sourdough"? (most versions use some bakers yeast). What about the Continental Sourdoughs? European bakers are trained to make sourdough with bakers yeast (often with the exception of rye).

An example is this bakery in Sydney [url]http://www.sourdough.com.au/bavarian[/url] which makes stunning breads, both 100% sourdough and sourdough with a bakers yeast component. Have a chat with Arthur and you realise that this person is a highly skilled, Bavarian trained baker who uses sourdough technology in a number of different ways to make the best bread he can. He clearly distinguishes between 100% sourdough and yeast breads (which could have sourdough added).

It is all about giving consumers the opportunity to make informed choices. Is the term "yeasted sourdough" preventing that from happening?

hi guys ,i thought it would be ok to presume that any dough that contains a sourdough culture (obviously one thats fermented enough lactic and acetic acids to give a vinegar flavour) would be rightfully considered a sourdough ,even if it does contain commercial yeast.
i would call a sourdough that doesnt contain any commercial yeast 'naturaly leavined yeast free dough'......mainly due to it is leavined without the aid of the commercial yeast and its obvious that the levain does contain the wild yeast needed to create the final rise in the dough.

Wink

These are good questions, sourdough, in terms of law, is totally undefined, a hot bread kitchen can buy 'sourdough essence" & add it to their crap doughs & call it sourdough.I can't imagine the laws being changed because most sourdough bakers cheat & won't get behind any law that stops them being called sourdough eg they use commercial yeast

The reason that purists get so upset is that they've invested a great deal of time into this craft. Like a sushi chef training for years to prefect the art, or somebody who throws ceramics bowls by hand. These hand thrown pieces can fetch thousands of dollars if made by a master of the art. They also last a lifetime. (Think buried pottery fragments and terra cotta warriors). But I digress... bread only last a day or few but the art is no less a process of slow perfection. Of course the industry is riddled with wankers ready to say what an esoteric sect artisan bakers are, complete with secret hand moulding techniques. They just do it to inflate their own ego. I've come accross far too many of these types. They give us purists a bad name

:?

But seriously... Some of us really can imagine finishing our working days, very satisfied with a working life spent perfecting a trade that has a long and distinguished history.
But for someone who's devoted their life perfecting an art.... well for someone else to do a university degree and then produce a product in test tubes and give it the same label as what you're making... is an insult. It would not be dissimilar to heading to France and convincing the Winemakers in Champagne that you can duplicate their product in a laboratory. Better wear a good helmet! The (Hospitality) industry is about experiences. Taste experiences, dining experiences etc. We aim to pleasure the senses (in the most chaste of ways). This is something that will never be reduced to a series of equations for... you've started off on the wrong foot already. To convey that experience is to put yourself in the other's shoes. Not (as I read on an article on 'food technology') to "fool the senses." It's the thought that counts. It's about a giving experience, not a process of trickery and oppurtunism.