Rye Sourdough Bake-Off

 Okay...LeadDog I have to admit my 50/50 - was cut after 9 hours.  As many who bake with Rye here have attested that is not long enough to wait, and I never really understood that.  With the Apple Ryes you don't need to wait for the Flavor to develop at all - you can eat them as soon as they cool.  The flavor is both mild and delectable, but the Rye flavor does deepen after a day or so, if there is any left...

When I first tasted the bread after 9 hours the flavor was very flat and I was kinda disappointed, but yesterday when I tasted it again at ~26 hours later... It was tasting pretty good.  Today it was just marvelous with a thin slice of New Zealand Cheddar!  I am truly astonished at the change.  Wow the taste is just as German as you can get.  No seeds just  Flour, water and Salt.  

So maybe I will do one more 50/50 with White Wheat Flour...And tweak my method a bit.  Before moving to the next level~~

 I have gotten back to eating the Rye I made for St. Patrick's day and yes the flavors have gotten much better.  It is almost like it needs to age like wine.

 That looks really good.

 Fred Bread.

I almost missed a picture as you can see... Definitely a wing it bread. 

This bread is 5 days old by the way... and this is what was left after breakfast today.

You might be able to see that the hydration levels are quite different.  I was making my normal bread, which I augmented with some of my rye and duram starters, and decided to utilize the bulk fo my Rye starter to make a rye marble.  I was trying to get a good color so I used a large percentage of rye starter - some un-identified whole wheat or spelt (forgot to lable it!), blackstrap molassas, and a small amount of cocoa powder.  The hydration was much lower than the mostly white and I thought maybe it would even out during proofing.  It was really hard to get these loaves in the pans - my mostly white was a little too soft. But the result was kinda whimsical as you can see.  The flavor was interesting - and I was able to pass the bread off on the Non-Rye member of my team...  He was very suspicious though!! Ha Ha!

TP - Your bread looks Fab! - Sunflower Flaxseed Bread should impress the Germans!!

Terri

 What a cool looking bread.

Reminds me a bit of the marble cake that my mother used to make - though hers were pink and white.

Farinam

I had nothing to do with a papaya so I decided to add it to the dough. I blended it into a mousse and add to a bread dough. Ther's no papaya flavor in baked loaves but they' re very light and tasty.

Recipe at:

http://loafstreet.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/papaya-sourdough-rye-bread/

 That is a great idea.

Hi all I've been lurking here for a few years but one of TechPoh's questions reminded me of some bits and pieces I have learnt over the years. I've had a pure rye sour for about 7 years now but rarely do 100% rye because of the cost of rye flour locally.

I was intrigued by the questions about commercial yeast. My wife is horribly allergic to the stuff [anaphylactic shock etc] and I've wondered about why so many 'sourdough' breads seem to need some added commercial yeast. This forum was enough to send me back to my library and try to solve the mystery.

At least in part there appear to be some geographic and historic elements to the addition of commercial yeasts as well as to 100% rye loaves.

Hope the following helps:

According to Lepard [Local Breads], German and Austrian bakers appear to have a distinctly different technique and attitude towards rye flour. They use a very sour starter with high percentages of rye flour [up to 100%], while the Polish and Czech bakers use milder sour with Polish rye being typically 40% rye 60% wheat and Czech rye bring 60% rye and 40% wheat. The German/ Austrian starter is quite wet and allowed to develop for 12-24 hours. The Polish/Czech starter either uses a system of four hourly refresh building a very firm starter or an 8-12 hour refresh with a very firm starter. The frequent feedings dilute the acids produced by the lactobacilli.

It appears that rye bread with wheat flour comprising a reasonable percentage of total flour doesn’t need a very sour starter because of the amount of gluten present in the overall dough. 100% rye loaves, on the other hand, distinctly benefit from a more sour starter as the acids created by active lactobacillus directly inhibit the polysaccharide pentosans from developing a sticky glue like consistency.

Lepard [p. 273] ‘Rye sourdough certainly lends the bread its earthy flavour, but just as important, it gives rye dough structure in the absence of structure-building gluten. Here is how it works: Amylase is an enzyme that breaks down starch, turning in it into sugar. When starches in rye dough break down, the loaves collapse. If the dough contains rye sourdough, which is highly acidic, the acids will protect the starches [pentosans], so that as the bread bakes, the starches can gelatinize, trapping the gases to give the loaf some shape. As long as you have a healthy, acidic rye sourdough and put some salt in to slow fermentation, you don’t have to worry about amylase breaking down your starch.’ [same argument is also given by Maggie Glazer, Artisan Baking]

Lepard also states in relation to supplemental baker’s yeast: German and Austrian bakers ferment their sourdoughs so much that the acids kill off some of the natural yeast, so bakers often add some commercial yeast to give their rye bread a boost. Because Czech and Polish bakers employ more briefly fermented, they tend to add less commercial yeast. However Lepard also recounts meeting a Polish baker who didn’t use commercial yeast due to confidence he had in the leavening ability of his sourdough. [p. 305]

‘This isn’t to say you should stay away from commercial yeast when baking rye breads. German and Austrian bakers like their sourdough very sour, and the more acidic a sourdough gets, the less leavening power it has. They often use commercial yeast as a hedge against the possibly diminished leavening capability of the sourdough. The sourdough lends bread flavour while the commercial yeast gives it a lift.’

All of which sounds to me like commercial bakers ensuring a decent rise when being uncertain about the raising power of their leaven.

Other goodness from Lepard  on pure rye breadsincludes:

[p. 272] ‘I was used to kneading wheat dough primarily to develop gluten. With rye dough, kneading is all about blending the ingredients into a velvety smooth mass. The point isn’t to wrestle the dough into submission but to let it relax. Clemens likes to give his dough a 10 minute rest in the middle of kneading.’

            ‘Unlike wheat dough, which will spring back when you poke it with your finger, rye dough that is ready for the oven won’t spring back. Instead, it feels light and spongy to the touch.’

[p. 273] ‘Rye breads doesn’t have dramatic oven spring, so you don’t want to inhibit their small rise in any way. Keeping the crust moist for the first part of baking allows the breads to reach their maximum volume before the crust hardens, halting their rise.’ I use an old Le Creuset frypan on the bottom rung of my oven, turning the oven on flat out for 25 minutes before baking. When I put the bread in I add 5 ice cubes into the fry pan thus creating a heavy steam for some minutes. It’s my attempt to mimic a commercial steam oven.

I wonder if the glaze traditionally put on German rye breads has some sort of similar effect in slowing down the setting of the crust.

regards Steve 

I had wondered about the absence of any hard science in any of my books in relation to what I seen described as the symbiotic yeast/bacteria colony that forms a mature sour starter. Lead Dog's clarification seems to confirm to me that the addition of comercial yeast is either due to a desire for a less sour result, a faster and more controllable rise, or because of a lack of trust in the raising power of the mother itself. regards Steve

 Steve I think you are right about why some people feel they need to add yeast.  I think there my be a great explaination buried here in our forums why you shouldn't use yeast in a 100% Rye bread and only use sourdougn.  In your above quote it is said that the acid kills off some of the yeast but never says which yeast.  That might be a ture statement but it would be yeast that you didn't want to use to make bread with anyway.  The same thing happens in wine the yeast that ferment the wine kill off all the other yeast to protect their food supply.  

 And I'm talking about me! I saw this thread ages ago and becausew I couldn't seem to be able to post using my iPad

I haven't, but voila, today it would seem I can! Hoorah!

My favorite rye bread at the moment is the Classic Auvergne dark rye from Daniel Leaders book "Local Breads" that I

am currently working my way through.  I made it again Easter weekend for the first time in ages.  It really is a great bread.

For flour it uses mostly rye (500g) and some white wheat (200g). The dough has the consistency of peanut butter, but

the loaf is proofed free form and the resultant bread is moist and delicious! I love it!

I posted a blog about it ages ago: www.sourdough.com/Blog/local-breads-classic-auvergne-dark-rye