myths and reality in naturally fermented bread

Myths in naturally fermented bread?

Smile

This subject has been interesting topic to discuss as many bakers use this kind of ?gimmickry ? to improve their product marketability often with success;

But are all those gimmickry well worth or really factual ?

Razz

It is common knowledge that traditional bread is just flour, salt, water, and leaven and occasionally bakers yeast. Many people believe certain ingredients are needed to produce better quality bread; such as organic, and freshly made flour, sea salt, crystal spring water, and natural leaven culture.. It should be preferably hand kneaded, and baked on a wood fired oven. If that would be the way how its made from the choice ingredients and made by hand and baked with wood heat?it certainly improve the sales appeal of that bread from the artisan point.

But do all of those specific ingredients and treatment may make a difference?based on experience ?It does not ,,, but depends largely on the functionality and ingredient chemistry.

Cool

I would easily agree with the oven as I had experience the difference in taste with bread baked under such facility. But freshly made flour and properly aged flour, statistically speaking I cannot find any significant difference in taste but there is indeed better baking quality due to improvement in appearance and volume which is due to flour maturation in the properly aged flour.

With sea salt, and common table salt I don?t see any difference either,
Now with water as long as its not tainted strongly with other foreign or chemical tastes it cannot influence the bread taste either.

Cool

The only observed benefit had something to do with the amount of mineral matter in the water that can also provide some dough strengthening effect due to the presence of calcium and magnesium ions. Medium hard water is beneficial to the dough than soft water (such as present in rainfall).This is due to the presence of moderate amounts of
Divalent cations in the spring water that indeed improve gluten strength better than the monovalent cations present in salts such as sodium or potassium..

It may be right if the spring water is loaded with sufficient mineral ions and the tap water is soft type with very minimal content of ions; but for a tap water with medium hardness, its impossible to find the difference in performance with spring water.
so the so called crystal spring water is just A MEDIA HYPE..?

Razz

Therefore what ever thought of as the magic of certain ingredients can be attributed to the ?chemical effect? and not due to its source where in extreme cases new age minded people even attribute the particular water to being ?blessed ? nature or elemental spirits such as elves, fairies, gnomes etc.?

Laughing

Now what is the benefit of hand kneading if compared to machine kneading.? Does a dough made by hand or manually is better tasting than the mechanically developed dough?
Assuming the degree of dough development is the same I can?t find much difference as long as the subsequent processing are identical.

In many parts of developing countries where bakers knead the dough in a trough like vessel ( or as old fashioned feeding vessel for livestock) and you can see dripping perspiration incorporated with the dough I tried it a few times this particular vesion of hand kneading ( by myself alone)handling 50 to 100 kg of dough in that wooden trough while moving back and forth from end to end of that vessel while I fold , push and stretch the dough and indeed its difficult to prevent lots of my sweat from dripping and getting incorporates in the kneaded dough.

The people in these areas believe that bread taste better due to the added perspiration from the bakers. Now it takes considerable skill and stamina to knead such dough size by hand non stop for at least half and hour! so profuse sweating is inevitable exacerbated by the tropical conditons in the bakery.

Now when the dough is done its divided into 10-15 kg sizes and even slung on sweaty shoulders to stretch. You can see the dough glistening being moistened by the bakers perspiration and when the dough is pressed with palm to form a fist you can hear the squishing sound of the wetted dough is being formed into round slabs!

Razz

.They really have to wipe vegetable oil on the bench surface to prevent the sticking of the sweat moistened dough

Cool

Now....
High speed mixing ,medium speed and slow speed mixing? I don?t see any difference either as long as the degree of dough development is the same.

For example a baker mix a dough in the spiral mixer and another baker in the fork type/french mixer and other do the same in the high speed Tweedy or the Stephan vertical cutter mixer, or a home baker willl use the food processor as he has no mixer or feel lazy to knead a dough...

Smile

Based on observation of the bread results; if the degree of dough development is made to be the same and the rest of the processing conditions are controlled to be equivalent the resulting bread quality and taste is identical!

Cool

A competent baker can make an artisan style dough with these high speed mixers (as with by his hand,) and other mixing equipment but many bakers who have never experienced playing with those particular machines ( aside for its intended purpose in commercial bakeries vehemently disagree?ncluding the venerable Raymond Calvel) because its in their mindset that the dough that is run into those machines should come fully developed but the fact its it depends upon the baker running the equipment and what kind of dough is he making from it and the adjustment he has made in the mixing parameters.

Therefore I cannot find the dough to be oxidized (or bland tasting according to Calvel thesis) if you know how to use the equipment properly.

So I can say that artisan baking is full of myth?.?

Razz

Cool

Why do many bakers succumb to such form of superstitions?

Razz

?.I can attribute that partly to technical ignorance? the other part ( due to personal prejudice)?

Razz

I would like to hear some opinions from other posters who have experienced uniqueness of their bread if compared with competition due to applying these special ingredients or using different dough preparation methodology .
It is a subject that is really suited for an interesting discussion.,
In addiition to that
It would be equally interesting if other members can post other myth not mentioned here. that needs dissection if it has really a valid basis ...

Cool

46 comments

Its good to know that I least this time you like my thoughts

Smile

Thanks chembake

You have posted some thoughtful posts lately. Good to see.

Graham

Graham,
you are to giving and yet I think it's like we here say if you don't like the channel turn off the T.V.!
Chembake, by French I meant my saying "abruti",but I think that went over your head, hehehe, just a joke!

Shocked

Jeremy

It sometimes feels like we are tiny playthings in chembake's sandpit, which is located behind the school science block. It's like that time I was in the playground and XXXXX punched me in the guts for absolutely no reason or one time, at band camp...etc...etc.. We left all that school yard turmoil behind for good reason.

OK chembake. Enough play for today. I am going to ask you a technical question that is related to our up and coming co-operative bake. Will do so in a new topic.

Graham

Graham...Let put it this way weird methods are usually done by weirdos

Laughing

Bill...I think I don't have a problem here but depends how you think about it

Laughing

[quote="chembake"]
In this particular thread The contentious issue here is about the negative criticisms to somebody
[/quote]
Chembake, if you really think that is the issue then you have a serious problem.

Chembake I don't think I have ever used the term evil. Opposing views that are suppored by argument are fine and we obviously both think that or one of us would have gone off in a huff by now.

[quote]
...crystal cave weirdos

Smile

[/quote]

You are not calling their process wierd, but actually calling them "weirdos". Is this a well argumented opposing view, or a personal insult?

Graham

Jeremy Its good to know that you are enjoying your stay in this forum and am sure Graham is happy about the kindred souls that grown in numbers

Smile

I am expecting that you and the rest had a working knowledge on subjects that you are posting here.

Cool

Jeremy, I am not forcing anybody either to follow my way how to make bread and its interpretation.
In this particular thread The contentious issue here is about the negative criticisms to somebody

Sad

But?.
Opinions ,good or bad are still opinions and should not be treated as gospel truth, then why you literally make mountains out of molehills?

Smile

BTW, Jeremy ?keep it mind you did not make a mistake with the French language?.other wise de Gaulle would be turning in his grave<LOL>

[quote]
A smile at the end of a personal insult does not make it a joke. You have a very thick skin, chembake. Either that or you just don't give a damn. Let us see where the coming weeks lead us. There is only so much dark eco a site like this can handle.
[/quote]

A smile?...a joke? Then why did you take it seriously?BTW, is it supposed to be that jokes regardless of taste are not to be taken seriously?

If you construe opposing views as evil then what is the point of forum discussion if you clamp down oppositions?
May I ask if this forum is dictatorial, like the Vatican where contrary ideas and views are treated as blasphemy and the person responsible is threatened with excommunication?

Surprised

chembake,
First of all we are all not untrained in baking or food processing, not like unlike yourself, but we are in a learning process and sharing through the auspices of Graham and this forum.Being a member of this forum has helped me and others enjoy and practice this process at whatever speed and I think that this is not the place to say that superiority of method technique or anything else for that matter should allow for stupidity, jokes? I think not the tone is arrogant and further more tasteless, opinions are welcome but being an asshole isn't! I've said my bit and excuse my French!

Jeremy

[quote]
That also one of my concern with these crystal cave weirdos

Smile

[/quote]

[quote]
A joke read by extremely sensitive fellows (neurotic personalities) can be considered an insult?,but just a jest by other people.
But anyway I will try
[/quote]

A smile at the end of a personal insult does not make it a joke. You have a very thick skin, chembake. Either that or you just don't give a damn. Let us see where the coming weeks lead us. There is only so much dark eco a site like this can handle.

Graham

[quote]
We gave you this spot expecting you to be critical in a technical sense. Re-interpreting fantasies as truth (the bath leaven) is not a particularly clever way of arguing against Crystal Waters philosophy, which you know has nothing to do with bath leaven.
[/quote]

Graham, I was thinking initially that is a joke BUT knowing that sourdough microbes are ubiquitous in nature and lacto bacteria are also present in the human body I give it a benefit of doubt that the microbes had other potential application

[quote]
I actually enjoy absurd perpectives, but unfortunately an email was recently sent to >Les at Crystal Waters (see below
[/quote]

Absurdity is one source of humor?!

[quote]
>Of course the email, in 9/10 english is not from you, but it has disturbed Les enough to >make me think twice about my adventurous move to give you free reign of this space. >Perhaps your personal insults, which many of us look at as a bold alternative perspective, >are interpreted as fact by some and have more influence than I expected?
[/quote]

Graham, I did not expect that I am? an influential? person; thanks for telling me !?. But if people will take my word as an inspiration and use it for malevolent purpose then I should not be to blame( maybe he? just a symphatizer) in the same way that Hollywood be chastised for ?helping? criminals increase and refine their repertoire of ideas and methods for evil purposes.
Look , a knife is a useful tool but its usefulness have different meanings which is dependent on the intended purpose by its users
If given to a a criminally minded fellow- it?s a tool for committing murder, but to a chef is useful for preparing food which can sustain life.

[quote]
The following email was sent to Les from "Robert McDermott
[/quote]
LOL! I did never expect somebody will write directly to your weird friends. I am thankful for what he did and I might send an e-mail to him as I know now I am not alone and somebody shares my views?

[quote]
Please tell me: Are you able to tone down your personal insults? Technical insults are fine in this forum, but not all folks have the tolerance for personal insults that you and I might.
[/quote]

A joke read by extremely sensitive fellows (neurotic personalities) can be considered an insult?,but just a jest by other people.
But anyway I will try

[quote]
>There seems to be a controversy on plant baking and "artisan" baking, >my view is that we >ought to take things slower and admire tradition without having to >compromise or create a >"soylent green" mentality in our food supply as suggested by some, >this whole >conversation is starting to sound like the Kansas board of education trying to >shove >creation versus evolution down peoples throats!
[/quote]

Jeremy, I don?t see that there is controversy between the two methods, Its just that people who are trained or accustomed to one system is likely to misunderstand the other! That is why there is a need for cross training. We cannot deny the fact that no matter how hard we abhor methods that is contrary to our ideals, it will continue to exist as its part and parcel of the food processing industry and large segments of society depends on it.

Hi Graham,
Well I missed some news since my last reply! As for the apology I rendered before to Chembake, well I'll hold my tongue and let Graham make the decision on letting this oppurtunity he gave Chembake which was a bold decision on the basis it wouldn't be a whipping post! A leaven, bath? Where do I sign up? The bread would probably be a hairy apple juice, I have Russian genes! There seems to be a controversy on plant baking and "artisan" baking, my view is that we ought to take things slower and admire tradition without having to compromise or create a "soylent green" mentality in our food supply as suggested by some, this whole conversation is starting to sound like the Kansas board of education trying to shove creation versus evolution down peoples throats!
As for Les and Crystal Waters, let me be the first to apologize to them because I think that working as they do reminds me a lot of my Mothers stories of her youth on a farm village in France during the second world war and the communal sharing but most of all the hearth oven being the place to cook and provide nourishment, not so scientific, we need to eat! As for the wanker who sent that blatantly anti everbody e-mail well....Your like a night club in the morning the bitter end!

Ta,
Jeremy

...chembake, chembake, chembake. We gave you this spot expecting you to be critical in a technical sense. Re-interpreting fantasies as truth (the bath leaven) is not a particularly clever way of arguing against Crystal Waters philosophy, which you know has nothing to do with bath leaven.

You interpret fantasy as fact when that is in your favour, and decry fantasy as fantasy when it is not. I actually enjoy absurd perpectives, but unfortunately an email was recently sent to Les at Crystal Waters (see below).

Of course the email, in 9/10 english is not from you, but it has disturbed Les enough to make me think twice about my adventurous move to give you free reign of this space. Perhaps your personal insults, which many of us look at as a bold alternative perpective, are interpreted as fact by some and have more influence than I expected?

Please tell me: Are you able to tone down your personal insults? Technical insults are fine in this forum, but not all folks have the tolerence for personal insults that you and I might.

The following email was sent to Les from "Robert McDermott"

kinepak@lycos.com

[quote]
dear sir,
I have read about your bakery while browsing the sourdough com.au website. I was appalled to see you using holistics to market your bread.
I don't see much difference with your items compared with other naturally fermented doughs so why claim that is different from what we call technically as naturally fermented dough.
Does New AGe belief can influence the quality of bread? I doubt about it.
You are just exploiting your customers naivety and ignorance and force them to accept a higher selling price for such item. From the basis of economics if the business is not viable then why do somebody have to apply deceptive means just for the product to be accepted at your dictated price.? Does the bread eating public deserves to be deluded that a higher priced loaf is best for them because the makers are Greenpeace activists?

If you can't improve production efficiency with your crude methhods then why bother be in business and compensate that with outrageous marketing ploy?
Does jacking up the price and saying the loaf is literally ' blessed by the gods' would make it wholesome?
What's that sustainability crap you are talkinga about? We know that wheat growing and cultivating cultures is self sustainable and making bread is self sustainable then what else has a unique form of self sustainability that jsutifies the price of your product?
Does a tree hugging baker make a difference to the ones who don't?
Look no matter how I see it, I sense something sinister in your trade.
Have a nice day!
[/quote]

[quote]
Well I've heard about the Sanfrancisco bakers sweat and saliva, but Big Apple Juice might be just a bit much.
[/quote]

That also one of my concern with these crystal cave weirdos

Smile

Think about that , after using a home brew for bathing somebody, its drained and used to make a culture for a batch of bread? Is It not absurd?
Yes, scientifically speaking its workable, but from the point of , ethical standards how many people would agree to that they can literally ?consume? the residues of their bathroom habits?

Razz

Regarding the san francisco leaven, scientificaly speaking strains of lactobacillus sanfranciscences were indeed discovered in bakers oral cavity and there is a story that those bskers really used it to start a leaven.

It is also well known that we have lactobacilus brevis among the bacteria that occurs in our saliva.

Well I've heard about the Sanfrancisco bakers sweat and saliva, but Big Apple Juice might be just a bit much.

Laughing

[quote]
Graham I really am thinking of asking Les at crystal waters or anyone one there if they'd have me, I need a big glass of the red stuff today!
[/quote]

Jeremy, I will ask Les to prepare a home-brew bath for you when you arrive after the long flight. After your bath we will recycle the bath brew and turn it into leaven for a festive bake to celebrate your arrival. It will become one of the most active leavens ever seen and will be remembered every year on 'Jeremy Leaven Day'. We live up the road, so will definately join in the celebrations.

Very Happy

Graham

Hi all,
I posed that question (what is artisan baking?) To Jeffrey Hamelman and he said some good stuff especially that "old" time bakers are key to understanding this metier and could teach a few of these upstarts a thing ortwo, he said it better than I did and Graham I really am thinking of asking Les at crystal waters or anyone one there if they'd have me, I need a big glass of the red stuff today!

Jeremy

A good book which applies science in a practical way is "Baking. The Art and Science". Basically it is a Canadian translation of the book recommended for German apprentices, or at least that was when I purchased mine 12 years ago.

The second edition is out now, and avaialble at: [url]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096937450X/102-2170414-8393703?v=glance&n=283155[/url]

In defense of the bakers at Bakers Delight, etc they are put under a lot of pressure and learn how to work their asses off. 6-12 months in such a place is actually not a bad pre-apprentiship for working in an artisan bakery. Joost from[url=http://www.sourdough.com.au/berry]Berry Woodfired Sourdough[/url] has an ex-bakers delight baker as part of his team and says he is excellent.

My gripe with these franchises is the way they can dilute terms like 'artisan' and 'sourdough' which have been built up strongly by artisans using artisan techniques. And as a franchise baker you would become very cynical (= unmotivated) because you would surely question the 'artisan' bread you were making as you added [url=http://www.bakersdelight.com.au/downloads/Bread%20Range%20-%20Australia/rye_and_sour_doughs.pdf]Natural Rye Sour[/url] from a packet (does the baker think "gee. at least I won't have to make a leaven and let the dough sit for 8-12 hours while it builds flavour", or do they think "wouldn't it be interesting to make a leaven and let our dough sit for a while"?)

In actuality, they just get on with the job because that is the mode of training...do first, think second (which is sometimes a good work mode to be in...just not all the time).

As chembake has said in one of his first posts, the sour flavoured bread should be called "sourdough flavoured" rather than sourdough (= sourdough process).

Oh yeah...sorry I did not join you folks for hooch in the previous posts. You will know when I have a glass of red on my desk because I will start talking about moving out to the sticks and baking under the moon. Good move KazaKhan?®©. I am with you on that one.

Graham

[quote="chembake"]
So you work in Woolworth Safeway? the direct competitor of Coles?
[/quote]
No, unemployed for the time being and I wouldn't want to work for either those places again.


[quote]
>I'll save my money and pick your brain among others although if you could >recommend a book covering the science and chemistry of bread I'd be intereseted >would any of those above fit that description?
[/quote]

You can gain money and learn at the same time of you worked instead in an artisan bakery. Books are just guide for your learning.

Cool

BTW, I did not learn my chemistry by reading those books but by actual study and work in the university and job related bakery/patisserie and confectionery R&D. But yes I know some references that would interest you. Its unfortunate that I don?t have the encylopeidic and detailed memory for such.
Maybe the lactobacteria have pickled my brains??

Laughing

For the chemistry in baking there are some of that in any baking school library as in the state library . I just can?t remember all the titles and the authors.
I remember William Angliss and Regency TAFE had those books as well!
The well known book which primary reference for industrial baking .
some emphasis on the chemistry and physics of baking you can try two volume books E.J. Pyler? titled Baking Science and Technology and that covers what you want to know about science.
You can also find it in RMIT and in the State library in Swanston Street.
For the chemistry and microbiology of sourdough you can look at it in Karel and Kulp ? Handbook of Dough Fermentation?. I am not sure if its available in RMIT as it?s a new book, but that school had many technical books related to baking scattered in their food technology related titles which covers also sourdough.

Cool

You can also look at the United States patent files for the San Francisco sourdough literature. At http://

www.uspto.gov/patft.

Just type the word sourdough and you will be shown many sourdough related patent files.

Cool

If you are diligent enough and have the means to read chemistry and microbiology you can browse the journals such as applied microbiology, environmental microbiology, bakers digest, cereal chemistry, cereal foods world, cereal science today.Food technology abstracts, food chemistry,applied food science. etc.
The literature for the chemistry of baking is rather broad and profound and I had used those information sources for my past research and development work in that field.

Indeed, which is why I mentioned I think I've learnt more baking everyday at home then the one day a week of TAFE.

Cool

Home baking is a good way to practice your skills but not enough, you have to lean it by working in institutional setting ,

[quote]
>Isn't it blatantly obvious?
>As soon as I took the idea of baking seriously I've since wondered why I never >thought of it earlier.
[/quote]

Maybe you are electrostatically charged earlier,( negative charge) but later in life you got? earthed ?

Laughing

Or grounded so the positive charge ( baking) got the upper hand?
Hmmn so you are not an Electric man anymore?.but a Dough Boy.
Good for you!

Cool

Laughing

[quote]
>Of course but I didn't articulate myself very well. I really meant the same thing as >you mentioned in your previous post and that is Bakers Delight etc have too much >influence in what we learn. Most of my day at TAFE is probably comparable to a >grunt in Woolies. It's my feeling that there is not enough emphasis on theory and >analysis of the bread we bake. There are apprentices in my class that have been >baking bread for 2-3 years yet know absolutley nothing of the science behind it.
[/quote]

So you work in Woolworth Safeway? the direct competitor of Coles? Anyway the bakers there share the same fate as the bakers delight and brumby. They work their asses out making bread out pre mixes. Good for the business but bad for the bakers.
I hope you won?t mind my comment?.being employed as a baker in those places is not a good way to improve your skills and reputation?you will go dumb in due time?the longer you stay there the more stupid you become?
[quote]
Sacralige!! Mines aluminium... it's all they had
[/quote]

Sorry to hear but Aluminum for slashing the dough ??
You must be joking...It get dull easily? and likely to drag the dough insteadl of cutting it.?.I would rather use the blade from the barbers disposable razor as it cuts cleaner.
I used to have a French Lame?designed for slashing dough?s but boy they are expensive

Sad

[quote="chembake"]
Textbooks?
[/quote]
It's not a textbook book it's really a workbook with some theory in it. We use it as a guide for our production and to record all the related info...

[quote="chembake"]
You can use the book of Jeffrey Hamelman for a start? Besides if you have a school library there are many reference books there related to artisan baking.
Many European bread books are artisan in ?flavor?
Raymond Calvel The Taste of bread is a good one. The books of decorative Breads by Bilheux, et al. Lenoitre bread books,Swiss Bakery by Richmont school; etc.
[/quote]
I'll save my money and pick your brain among others although if you could recommend a book covering the science and chemistry of bread I'd be intereseted would any of those above fit that description?
[quote="chembake"]
Your progress lies on your hands and not from your mentors
[/quote]
Indeed, which is why I mentioned I think I've learnt more baking everyday at home then the one day a week of TAFE.

[quote="chembake"]
Which do you enjoy doing twisting wires of pleating doughs?
Etc?

Laughing

Cool

[/quote]
Isn't it blatantly obvious?

Laughing

As soon as I took the idea of baking seriously I've since wondered why I never thought of it earlier.

[quote="chembake"]
Well baking is a commercial enterprise that is the reason. So you must know how to make money first before you dream of grander things!
When you have a source of income then you will have a source of funds to help fulfill your dreams!
[/quote]
Of course but I didn't articulate myself very well. I really meant the same thing as you mentioned in your previous post and that is Bakers Delight etc have too much influence in what we learn. Most of my day at TAFE is probably comparable to a grunt in Woolies. It's my feeling that there is not enough emphasis on theory and analysis of the bread we bake. There are apprentices in my class that have been baking bread for 2-3 years yet know absolutley nothing of the science behind it.

[quote="chembake"]
Just like Sherlock Holmes,,,,!

Cool

but you don?t hold a hand lens and pipe in your mouth but a wooden peel and a razor blade between your teeth!
[/quote]
Sacralige!! Mines aluminium... it's all they had

Wink


[quote]
It had better be good hooch, "His" name is Carol.
[/quote]

Omigosh! Is she a sourpuss and not a sourtom..?

Surprised

Might be better then to include an olive and lime slice and serve it in a martini glass

Cool

[quote="chembake"]
Graham..do you have some suggestion for souryums malady...?
I think he is .....

Shocked

He is in delirium...Might be good if you prescribed for him a glass or hooch before he visit this forum.?

Cool

Besides
I want to prove a myth that hooch is good cure for many ailments..

Laughing

[/quote]
It had better be good hooch, [b]"His"[/b] name is Carol.

[quote]
>I'm currently doing Commercial Baking at TAFE and I do believe when I return from the >break we will be getting into artisan breadmaking apparently. I say apparently as the >teacher has mentioned it quite a few times yet there is nothing about it in the textbook we >study from
[/quote]

Textbooks?
By the way artisan baking is not only about sourdough it also incorporates bread with bakers yeast and combinations. The main difference is the minimal and total lack of additives in such methods if compared to common commercial and industrial breads.

You can use the book of Jeffrey Hamelman for a start? Besides if you have a school library there are many reference books there related to artisan baking.
Many European bread books are artisan in ?flavor?
Raymond Calvel The Taste of bread is a good one. The books of decorative Breads by Bilheux, et al. Lenoitre bread books,Swiss Bakery by Richmont school; etc.
Your progress lies on your hands and not from your mentors

[quote]
>Anyways I was intending on finishing my electrical engineering diploma at TAFE but the >comments I was getting about the bread I was baking got me thinking that baking might be >the way to go. I've been making cakes since I was eight years old, I love pies, pastries and >fresh bread so baking it was. At 34 I'm not not interested in an apprenticeship, I've got >some ideas for a baking related business.
[/quote]

Don?t let the comments influence you but try to prove into yourself what do you really love to do in your life,
getting an electric shock & making your hair stand in the van de graaf generator or seeing your bread rise and bake in the oven.?
Which do you enjoy doing twisting wires of pleating doughs?
Etc?

Laughing

Cool

[quote]
I think there is too much emphasis on the commercial process and not enough on the science and art of >producing quality bread.
[/quote]

Well baking is a commercial enterprise that is the reason. So you must know how to make money first before you dream of grander things!
When you have a source of income then you will have a source of funds to help fulfill your dreams!

Cool

[quote]
>I think I've learnt the most from making bread at home though. I >bake pretty much >everyday and use bakers percentages and record mixing time, >temperatures etc. From this >I've been able to evaluate various ingredients and methods. I >believe coming from a >systems testing background has helped a lot in fine tuning my bread >making process at >hom
[/quote]

Its good to know that you had a good grounding in fundamentals! Keep it up!
Baking is also about experimentation and analysis; you bake, you eat, then YOU ANALYZE?,,Yeah!
Just like Sherlock Holmes,,,,!

Cool

but you don?t hold a hand lens and pipe in your mouth but a wooden peel and a razor blade between your teeth!

Cool

Laughing

[quote]
>Chembake the lack of adequate training in many areas of baker training is defficient. Could it >be something to do with technical institutions being so easily influenced by a manufacturer->centric industry? Are manufacturers the new trainers, or rather de-skillers of our industry? >How is it that modern bakeries can advertise for key production staff with 'no baking >experience'?
[/quote]

I have seen bakery institutions being sponsored by this bakery ingredients companies . The primary goal of such learning institutions is to train industrial and retail bakers such as for example workers for bakers delight and brumby in Melbourne. The curriculum was s patterned from the methods used by bakers of such franchise bakeries. I have seen also some guys who come from small bakeries including the artisanal types.
It might not be true with pastries and cakes as I had seen students making those products from the scratch.

I was also worried that the level bakery training in the baking schools are degenerating as franchise bakeries are mostly using mixes and bases and don?t make product from the scratch.
Another reason that exacerbates the situation is that school never emphasizes cross training in artisanal baking. I seldom see them baking breads with natural leavening like sourdoughs.
Some baking plants advertise workers that ranges from skilled bakers to new apprentices. But if an apprentice will gain is awakening in bakery manufacture from those large baking plant his skill is just how to run those machines and don?t even know how to hand mold which is a necessary skill in artisanal baking.

Sad

I tell you I felt bad
I have seen many qualified bakers who can?t mold dough properly by hand but were well versed with machines such as dough dividers , rounders and molders.
I have seen artisanal bakeries treating those qualified bakers like apprentice when they worked in their shops as they retrained them again from the scratch!

Sad

[quote]
>I spent several hours with the bakers at a very popular melbourne bakery recently. The head >baker (who had baked commercially since 15) said that he was very appreciative of his >Australian baker training but that it had not prepared him for the european style artisan he >was currently managing (think bigas, poolishs, organic levains, babys, chefs, sponges, etc). >He had picked up these skills through his own effots and obviously working with bakers who >knew what they were doing. The answer is to motivate bakers, just as this baker was >motivated.
[/quote]

That is the problem with bakery education in some parts of Australia. I have noticed that in one baking school there. They focused more on retail baking which is common in hot bread shops .
If a baker will want to cross train he will have to work in an artisan bakery to learn the ropes?..

One time a pastry chef of that school showed me sourdough starter made with raisins.
I asked him what kind of starter is that?.... a raisin or grape components is one method used to initiate the sourdough culture and should not be used to perpetuate it permanently ;
He told me it was bread specialist of r bakery department who kept it for their classes?.

Think about that?.if the school instructors don?t even know how to cultivate a starter culture then how can you expect them to teach those things properly to aspiring bakers?

Smile

\[quote]
>How can you get motivated when technology is promoted as an alternative to traditional >artisan skills?
[/quote]

A baker who has undergone technological training must be also made to train in the old fashioned way ; if he does not understand the relation between the old and the new then he better find another trade which does not bring him confusion?

Razz

Its more about pride than the willingness to learn and the lack of foresight about the importance of both breadmaking methodologies.

BTW, I started with ordinary means of making bread via the technological means but I was still humble enough to be a trainee under an old artisan.
It was good because if I started the other way around nobody knows I might be as prejudiced as my old teacher?

Laughing

Graham..do you have some suggestion for souryums malady...?
I think he is .....

Shocked

He is in delirium...Might be good if you prescribed for him a glass or hooch before he visit this forum.?

Cool

Besides
I want to prove a myth that hooch is good cure for many ailments..

Laughing

[quote="SourYumMum"]
Sooooooooooooo ... are you telling me that, along with fine Cuban cigars, sourdough bread isn't REALLY made by virgins?

Smile

[/quote]
Bugger! Another myth shattered.

Sooooooooooooo ... are you telling me that, along with fine Cuban cigars, sourdough bread isn't REALLY made by virgins?

Graham ... you DID warn me!

Smile

I just finished looking at your photos, including these:

[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/kazakhan/page2/[/url]

That is a very impressive looking range of breads. The proover looks simple and effective on page 7.

Graham

[quote="Graham"]
KazaKhan?®© what motivated you to get into commercial baking and can you summarise what have you learnt from the Commercial Baking course so far?
[/quote]
Ultimately I would like to go rural and create a hobby farm with a view to becoming self-sufficient in as many ways as possible. This has been a goal of mine for some years although the dream seems to be getting further away

Sad

With that in mind I decided towards the end of last year to try making bread. At first I used an old breadmaker I bought my wife about 5 years ago, it had only been used a few times soon after we got it. I used it just to knead the dough however I soon outgrew it and swapped it for a Kenwood Chef Excel (KM210) with my sister. I've outgrown the Kenwood now and I'm keeping my eye out for something bigger. Anyways I was intending on finishing my electrical engineering diploma at TAFE but the comments I was getting about the bread I was baking got me thinking that baking might be the way to go. I've been making cakes since I was eight years old, I love pies, pastries and fresh bread so baking it was. At 34 I'm not not interested in an apprenticeship, I've got some ideas for a baking related business.

As for the course itself I'm lucky I've got a very good teacher. So far we've covered rapid bread, 3-5 hour bulk ferments, sponge and dough and bread faults. At times it can be a bit too much like work rather than a learning experience but overall enjoyable. I think there is too much emphasis on the commercial process and not enough on the science and art of producing quality bread. I think I've learnt the most from making bread at home though. I bake pretty much everyday and use bakers percentages and record mixing time, temperatures etc. From this I've been able to evaluate various ingredients and methods. I believe coming from a systems testing background has helped a lot in fine tuning my bread making process at home.
[quote="Graham"]
That is a very impressive looking range of breads. The proover looks simple and effective on page 7.
[/quote]
Thank you. I've built a new proover it's basically a 3 shelf rack that I put a nylon tablecloth over and use a vapouriser (the sort used for the flu etc) for steam placed on the floor underneath. #(&*^$!! I just had to run inside (I'm in my garage) to pull some dough out of the new proover, thanks for reminding me your timing was impeccable

Laughing


That's interesting. I have heard that Leon Bailey from Regency Institute of TAFE SA is leading a push to bring artisan skills back to the course.

KazaKhan?®© what motivated you to get into commercial baking and can you summarise what have you learnt from the Commercial Baking course so far?

Graham

[quote="Graham"]
I spent several hours with the bakers at a very popular melbourne bakery recently. The head baker (who had baked commercially since 15) said that he was very appreciative of his Australian baker training but that it had not prepared him for the european style artisan he was currently managing (think bigas, poolishs, organic levains, babys, chefs, sponges, etc). He had picked up these skills through his own effots and obviously working with bakers who knew what they were doing. The answer is to [b]motivate[/b] bakers, just as this baker was motivated.
[/quote]
I'm currently doing Commercial Baking at TAFE and I do believe when I return from the break we will be getting into artisan breadmaking apparently. I say apparently as the teacher has mentioned it quite a few times yet there is nothing about it in the textbook we study from.


Fear not chembake and chembake admirers. The followers of artisan for arts sake are still standing as we watch myths that support us crumble

Smile

Laughing

.

[quote]
Additives, concern of eating shit..?
That is the typical mindset of an improperly educated baker.
The primary fault of such prejudiced thinking is the lack of balanced education and training.
[/quote]

Chembake the lack of adequate training in many areas of baker training is defficient. Could it be something to do with technical institutions being so easily influenced by a manufacturer-centric industry? Are manufacturers the new trainers, or rather de-skillers of our industry? How is it that modern bakeries can advertise for key production staff with 'no baking experience'?

I spent several hours with the bakers at a very popular melbourne bakery recently. The head baker (who had baked commercially since 15) said that he was very appreciative of his Australian baker training but that it had not prepared him for the european style artisan he was currently managing (think bigas, poolishs, organic levains, babys, chefs, sponges, etc). He had picked up these skills through his own effots and obviously working with bakers who knew what they were doing. The answer is to [b]motivate[/b] bakers, just as this baker was motivated.

How can you get motivated when technology is promoted as an alternative to traditional artisan skills?

Graham

[quote]
So does this mean I should give up wearing my garlic necklace while baking.
[/quote]

Laughing

Cool

[quote="chembake"]
[quote]

Going back to our topics about myths and reality in traditional baking; a baker that has a balanced education and good skills will likely not treat myths like gospel truth.

Cool

[/quote] [/quote]
So does this mean I should give up wearing my garlic necklace while baking.

Rolling Eyes

[quote]
>But in the end I always come back to people who actually show some >consideration for community. This includes considering the people we are >baking for and for the place we are baking in. I do not know why you would >bother making bread commercially if you could not give a shit about the >people eating your bread.
[/quote]
Additives, concern of eating shit..?

Surprised

That is the typical mindset of an improperly educated baker.
The primary fault of such prejudiced thinking is the lack of balanced education and training.

Razz

Graham that is what the bakery tradesmen needs in this century, is not just skill development but also cultivation of their minds.
Apprenticeship is good in cultivation of basic skills but it?s not enough nowadays.

Razz

Look I might be harsh but it?s the truth; many bakers who undergoes this apprenticeships including in Australia are DUMB.

Razz

(I have also undergone that but I look beyond the attainment of skill and went for higher education)

Cool

Yes they have great skill in their craft, but lack the brains to think.
I have worked with bakers who are really good in dough mixing, handling, molding, and baking but ignorant about important tasks such how to accurately calculate a recipe, scaling up and scaling down of the batch, how to deal with customers properly Etc.
Many of them cannot even understand the fundamentals of bakery formulations how each ingredient interact with one another. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that the qualification standard needs to be improved.
Apprenticeships should be coupled with good science and liberal arts education and cross training in order to broaden up their perspective about their trades.
If bakers are better educated and trained, the prejudice will be minimized if not removed.

Cool

I based these upon my experience which is well rounded.

Cool

I can make with equal facility an industrial , additive containing bread as well as traditional bread with no strange sounding ingredients You might ask?am I biased with one or the other??.NOPE!? and that is the result of cross training. I am convinced that is the way initially how a baker should be trained; it should be a balanced approach and the trainee should be taught about ingredients and its importance in baking regardless if its modern style or traditional. He should see baking from a broader perspective and not only what he is skilled at.

That is professionalism, you learned that trade by heart then you should understand and accept the difference between the various baking methodologies

[quote]
> Even the most tyranical bakers I worked with >would humble themselves >to the early morning customers. \
[/quote]
A properly educated and trained baker acts professionally to his customers and to his job. He does not have any prejudice to what he is doing as he is just doing his job. Excessive passion is tamed by reason and intellect.
That is what I call a properly trained baker, not just any tradesmen regardless if he accumulated decades of bakery experienced but extremely prejudiced in his thinking to a particular baking line beyond the realm of his experience and training.

Going back to our topics about myths and reality in traditional baking; a baker that has a balanced education and good skills will likely not treat myths like gospel truth.

Cool

I have to admit to enjoying this forum also, which is [i]the wrong side of the tracks[/i] of sourdough.com.au

Many of us started with a strong ideological outlook on what makes good bread. Then certain events can make you cynical about people and movements that are trying to consume less and tread lightly. It is very difficult not to be a cynic because just about everything we do in our first world can be interpreted as exploitation of a poverty stricken place.

It is easy to simply give up and go through the motions of first world life. If you can afford to jump on a plane as a tourist then supposedly this puts you amongst the top 11% of the worlds wealthiest people.

But in the end I always come back to people who actually show some consideration for community. This includes considering the people we are baking for and for the place we are baking in. I do not know why you would bother making bread commercially if you could not give a shit about the people eating your bread. Even the most tyranical bakers I worked with would humble themselves to the early morning customers.

If you have access to good quality ingredients and can find a way not to feed your customers synthetic additives, then why wouldn't you?

Graham

@chembake- amen for this forum!
I'll throw in one: I have made bread in all sorts of home ovens, including a clapped out electric oven in a holiday house that had to be set to full blast.
None of these breads have tasted inferior to the bread I bake daily in my wood-fired scotch oven.

>In regards to sea salt in breadmaking, 'performance' is a subjective >term. From a dough developmnet perspective the performance may >not differ much. However I think we will find that there are other >valid ways of assessing how salt performs in bread.

Salt performance in bread is well documented and its pretty similar as long as the base ingredient is sodium chloride.

>Your argument is not convincing enough to prevent me from thinking ?>that an expert on salt is likely to enter this forum very soon and tell >us the facts about the way how different salts perform in bread.

Well I would be interested to hear about it, but salt for bread means table salt regardless if it originated from the sea water brines or dug up from salt mines. Unless he will discuss something that Epsom salts is suited for baking. That would be interesting.

>On the hand mixing issue, most artisans agree with you. Out of the >40 or so philosophically motivated professional artisans in Australia, >there would be less than 5 who still do a large amount of hand >mixing. This shows that artisans are in fact very flexible and open >minded.

It is just in the past and in recent times I met many of these folks and my thesis have been met with derision that there is no big deal about using your hand or the machine to prepare and artisanal type dough.
In one occasion one guy challenged my thesis that there is no difference in taste in bread whether made by hand or machine and we agreed to prove it in one his friends bakeries. The results was that the product was lot better with mixers and the taste are just the same,much to his embarrasment.

Smile

>If you choose to hand-mix, you are not coming from a perpective of '>oh. how much friction does my dough need to develop'. It is more >like 'I can mix by hand. It worked for thousands of bakers before me >and it also works for me, so why should I get a mixer?' That is not a >close-minded perpective. It is just a perspective.

Well I have no argument with hand mixing; but if you can do the works by hand you can much better with a machine if you understand the principles properly,

>Imagine chembake, that one beatiful morning you woke up and >decided to go for a bake at say, Crystal Waters. You throw your >tweedy mixer and highly processed salts and flours into the back of >your old Kombi and hit the road.

I would not think of toting around the small scale Tweedy mixer as its heavy and bulky. I am equally adaptable with dough preparation by hand and machine. I am ambixdexterous in that line and have done in the past travel to remote bakeries and was apt in adapting to the local baking situations.

Cool

>At Crystal Waters you are embraced because you have come to help >bake for for the weekend markets. There is a crane ready to lift your >mixer into a little corner which you will work.

I am unimpressed with the holistic crap at Crystal waters, that is after reading the featured literature from your home page last now; are this people starting a new cult and they want to drag breadmaking into it?
What makes their bread unique from the rest, is because of noble intentions to make the best bread ? In my opinion they are elitist creatures, or descendants of the Amish related clan.?
They are trying to live in a kinda sort of Utopian world.!

Surprised

I think what these people really need is a heavy dose of reality. They should travel overseas to developing countries and see for themselves the hunger and poverty that part of the world is experiencing. They are afraid to get away from their comfort zone and want people to embrace their beliefs what life and breadmaking is all about. The want to make things that are connected to nature and so the eschew everything such as bakery equipment and want to make bread in primitive manner.
This New Age mumbo Jumbo segregates these fellows from the pragmatic artisans whom I call the real natural bakers .
The economics of production is against them and they pretend that they feel good ?hugging the ground? and making self reliant life based on their strange pet ideals of living?
Are these people gone nuts? Do they need psychiatric help and sound bakery training from a competent artisan or both

Laughing

?
One thing that surprises me is they avoid mixers as it probably contains metals that to my assumption will contaminate their dough; but what about plastic pails, where is the connectivity with that? Do they believe that plastics are natural or is lesser evil than metals? Mind you there are plenty of plastic carcinogens as metals.
He should have used a wooden bucket to make his dough.

Razz

>Even with access to Crystal Waters leaven and wood oven, do you >think that your bread would closely resemble theirs?

Technically speaking what is the difference with their bread and the rest of the bakers assuming the recipe are the same. Does chanting incantations on their dough make it better tasting than the rest.?
These people should travel with the circus and gypsies and I think that is where they belong?

Razz

I don?t agree with the point that they are trying to satisfy their consumers in a different way out of good motive to elevate breadmaking to the level or mild sorcery.

Laughing

They are running a business first and foremost, not an exhibition shop for their skills.then long term practicality of their business venture should be emphasized.

BTW,I was right then that natural baking have indeed a lot of myths and this Crystal waters personalities are emphasizing a number of it!

Razz

.

In regards to sea salt in breadmaking, 'performance' is a subjective term. From a dough developmnet perspective the performance may not differ much. However I think we will find that there are other valid ways of assessing how salt performs in bread.

Your argument is not convincing enough to prevent me from thinking that an expert on salt is likely to enter this forum very soon

Laughing

and tell us the facts about the way how different salts perform in bread.

On the hand mixing issue, most artisans agree with you. Out of the 40 or so philosophically motivated professional artisans in Australia, there would be less than 5 who still do a large amount of hand mixing. This shows that artisans are in fact very flexible and open minded.

If you choose to hand-mix, you are not coming from a perpective of 'oh. how much friction does my dough need to develop'. It is more like 'I can mix by hand. It worked for thousands of bakers before me and it also works for me, so why should I get a mixer?' That is not a close-minded perpective. It is just a perspective.

Imagine chembake, that one beatiful morning you woke up and decided to go for a bake at say, [url=http://www.sourdough.com.au/crystalwaters]Crystal Waters[/url]. You throw your tweedy mixer and highly processed salts and flours into the back of your old Kombi and hit the road.

At Crystal Waters you are embraced because you have come to help bake for for the weekend markets. There is a crane ready to lift your mixer into a little corner which you will work.

Even with access to Crystal Waters leaven and wood oven, do you think that your bread would closely resemble theirs?

Graham

[quote]
Salt: My understanding is that different salts contain different amounts of minerals, depending on their origin and level of processing. Therefore wouldn't your comments about the role of minerals in water also apply to minerals in salt?.
[/quote]

Graham, its unfortunate that you can?t understand nor see things from a deeper point.

Smile

I had baked for a long time with sea salt and if they are properly refined they perform equally as table salt?the difference arise if the are impure.> or have their unique peculiarities. But as long as sea salt is obtained from purified brine, the other mineral contaminants cannot influence the breadmaking performance as the water has in it as well. Unless if the water has low mineral content then it can certainly influence a bit the dough stability due to the presence of calcium and magnesium salts.

[quote]
My poor friend chembake. I really can not believe that you have made this comment about hand kneading...except to inspire the most >spirited response from our artisan community.
[/quote]

I don't romanticise hand kneading but see it in a technical way which is should be the proper way to see things ..

Smile

[quote]
Your general point about dough development is valid: i.e If you can develop the >dough the same in a mixer as by hand, then there is no difference.

>However many machines are so aggressive that they would only be capeable of emulating hand development if you were to turn them on >and off frequently, which of course is not going to happen in a busy production house (I know all about this. I once attempted to mix bread >dough with a Z-arm mixer ).
[/quote]
Well graham if you understand the mechanics of dough mixing its easy to calculate the required time for a certain dough and make the machine work to according to your needs and not the other way around.
In the bakery you are the boss not the machines?

Now you talk about z blade, high shear mixer, can come in different speed and sizes s the smallest z blade mixer that I have used is the one present in the farinograph instrument which is used to measure the rheological characteristics of flours. The mixing time can range from few minutes to half and hour. And the mixing curve will show a lot of information to the flour chemists about the potential of a certain wheat or flour.
There for small scale baking I can have the dough severely undermixed, to severely overmixed.

The same with high speed tweedy and the vertical cutter mixer. I can mix tweedy from a minute to 5 minutes and the VCM for several seconds to few minutes.
Now regardless of the speed if you take care with your dough and take into consideration the friction involved in such process, then you have to add chopped ice or ice cold water so that you will end up with dough temperature that approximates the feel with normally mixed dough using slower mixers.
I had spent a long time playing with these mixers that any dough even those subjected to autolysis I can mix it by feel to simulate other mixer?s dough development requirement
Therefore I had a valid point to say that the fault is not with the mixers but the people who runs them. If the baker is used to the common thinking that bread should be properly developed he is NOT suited to evaluate that particular mixers for artisanal baking.
What is CRITICAL to know is that slow speed and high speed mixing the most important part to consider is that you know the end point for a certain dough. It needs considerable experience to be competent in that particular line that you can mix by even by ?sprints and spurts? of the mixing blade and judge the resulting appearance .

[quote]
>What you have been careful not to dispute is that slow mixing is often good for dough development. This is particulary true with coarser >stoneground flours, which artisans are often using.
[/quote]

In my past experiments when I was using stone ground flour, I know that the coarser granule results in slow hydration, so I have to calculate the desired dough temperature and estimate the mixing time required for such flour with a particular mixer using previous performance data about that machine. I steep the dry ingredients for a few to several minutes with the doughing water then mix it with intermittent several second spurts of the mixing blade until I can feel the dough had the desired consistency or development.
Most of the time the artisanal doughs don?t need fully developed doughs but just beaten to distribute the water in the dry ingredients.
So friction that occurs in properly developed dough does not occur.
If for example a common mixer can have 120 rpm and it takes a certain dough about 15 minutes for complete development then the one with higher speed can mix it at 500 rpm then using simple arithmetic you can estimate that you have to mix the dough with lesser time say around 3 minutes for complete development.
If supposing and autolyzed dough requires only 5 minutes of mixing by the standard mixer then by that high speed mixer will only need not more than a minute to get the optimum development. So simple is that.
I have right to say that main problem why people are reluctant to change their perspective about that equipment is that they have never experienced working with those machines for a long time.
One thing that aggravate the situations is the artisanal bakers narrow perspective about intricacies of dough mixing and will always remain an uncharted territories to most of them except to the open minded artisan bakers who unfortunately are as rare as a hens teeth!

[quote]
So I think artisans have that one in the bag. But just to be certain, I am going back to my video tapes to see if I can find a relevant comment by a neutral entity...and...hey...what do you know? I have found just the evidence I need from some recent fiming at Uncle Bobs in Brisbane.

Isn't it funny how the smell is often the thing that bakers notice most about excessively mixed doughs?

http://www.sourdough.com.au/video/uncle ... 060_SL.mov

OR for a broadband connection:

http://www.sourdough.com.au/video/uncle ... 060_SM.mov

Plus! TeckPoh has a point. Fresh flour does taste different
[/quote]

Sorry tech poh.. from the point of fair assessment I cannot concur...
Unfortunately I cannot view that file as that to be seen with quicktime software which my PC don?t have. I have tried downloading quick time that previously but it screwed up the performance of my favorite graphic image programs of my unit so I uninstalled it.

Graham from the combined sensory analysis and statistical analysis,the evaluators cannot find any significant difference between the freshly milled flour and the properly aged one. When I was doing my own evaluation of my baked product without the benefit of a trained sensory panel I had the same opinion that fresh flour taste better but it was wrong as I was biased in my judgment. Nobody was exerting the control measure to see to it that fair judgment was done on the particular product.
So with self assessment with issues that requires statistical analysis to produce valid results is not considered scientifically acceptable, in the same way that in consumer panel that the numbers of results are assessed statistically to be considered acceptable to the considered a scientific truth.
Unfortunately that his how most of the artisan bakers judge bread, without the benefit of statistics as many of them cannot comprehend that mathematics nor are properly trained in the mechanics of proper sensory analysis.

Its obvious that natural breadmaking has many myths that are taken as gospel truths by most artisans!

Razz

It just unfortunate that many of them have aristotolean mentality in (the same line that the earth is flat )as the refuse to see beyond their limited experience with equipment and ingredients ?

Cool

Laughing

A good way to start your forum, chembake. I think you have just picked a fight with 98% of people who visit this site. Really, I am happy. There are plenty of myths, and not just from the artisan camp. Finally we get to talk frankly about them.

However on a number of points...

Salt: My understanding is that different salts contain different amounts of minerals, depending on their origin and level of processing. Therefore wouldn't your comments about the role of minerals in water also apply to minerals in salt?.

[quote]
Now....
High speed mixing ,medium speed and slow speed mixing? I don?t see any difference either as long as the degree of dough development is the same.
[/quote]

My poor friend chembake. I really can not believe that you have made this comment about hand kneading...except to inspire the most spirited response from our artisan community.

Your general point about dough development is valid: i.e If you can develop the dough the same in a mixer as by hand, then there is no difference.

However many machines are so aggressive that they would only be capeable of emulating hand development if you were to turn them on and off frequently, which of course is not going to happen in a busy production house (I know all about this. I once attempted to mix bread dough with a Z-arm mixer

Embarassed

).

What you have been careful not to dispute is that [i]slow mixing is often good for dough development.[/i] This is particulary true with coarser stoneground flours, which artisans are often using.

So I think artisans have that one in the bag. But just to be certain, I am going back to my video tapes to see if I can find a relevant comment by a neutral entity...and...hey...what do you know?

Wink

I have found just the evidence I need from some recent fiming at Uncle Bobs in Brisbane.

Isn't it funny how [i]the smell[/i] is often the thing that bakers notice most about excessively mixed doughs?

[url]http://www.sourdough.com.au/video/unclebobs/uncle_slow_mix_0060_SL.mov[/url]

OR for a broadband connection:

[url]http://www.sourdough.com.au/video/unclebobs/uncle_slow_mix_0060_SM.mov[/url]

Plus! TeckPoh has a point. Fresh flour does taste different.

Graham

[quote="chembake"]
Myths in naturally fermented bread?

Smile

[snip] But freshly made flour and properly aged flour, statistically speaking I cannot find any significant difference in taste but there is indeed better baking quality due to improvement in appearance and volume which is due to flour maturation in the properly aged flour.
[/quote]

A baker I know from Dan Lepard's forum, Martin Prior, mills his own flour from hard wheat berries, and uses it within a short period (can't remember exactly how many hours). He mostly makes bread for vegans. I visited him recently and had the pleasure of eating bread made by him and it was absolutely noticeably more delicious (sigh, sigh) than the same bread made by me using store-bought organic flour. Besides, don't freshly milled flour or fresh anything for that matter have more nutrients, which would contribute to superior flavour?