100% rye and a potato-rosemary loaf

Yesterday I gave Boris' black 100% rye a go. The color is more brown than black, but the bread is looking really good so far. Can't wait to cut into it! I wasn't sure how much of a final proof to give this loaf, so perhaps it's a tad underproved?
The white loaf next to it with the sorry excuse for slashes is Dan Lepards crusty potato loaf, with a tiny bit of wholewheat and semolina added, plus some chopped fresh rosemary. I love the taste and smell of this bread...
[img]http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/8441-1/x070621rye_potato4.jpg[/img]

36 comments

G'day Michael,

That's correct, as a general rule of thumb for naked rye bread (without tins); [b]the higher the % of rye flour in the dough the hotter the initial baking temp.[/b] Again, you're quite correct; liberal amounts of steam at the initial baking stage, and then allow it to escape. This will aid dough expansion, volume and rounded bottom edges of bread with higher percentages of rye. Providing alll else is as it should be, allowing the steam to escape while having a 'solid' heat at lower temperatures after the initial high temperature will also prevent side cracking of loaves with a high rye precentage.

[quote="nina"]Ooops, I didn't actually.

:oops:

The bread is still fine though, so I can do it tomorrow (gotta have daylight...)
The crumb was nice and even, just slightly sticky at the center. It would have been perfect was it not for my stupid oven making the crust too thick and dry. I'm sure it's the fan thing that I can't turn off, it has been messing with my white bread too untill I tried Dom's steam trick.
Usually with ryebread I cover the tin halfway through baking, I think I'll do that next time. It's necessary with my stupid oven *grumbles*
We still eat the bread even if it's hard work for the teeth, it's tastes great

;)

[/quote]

Nina, it sounds like it needed more baking, typically the crumb should be moist but 'elastic' not 'gluey' and of course it needs to stabilise over night after baking. Domestic ovens usually lack 'solid' heat, hence take more time to bake bread properley but there's still the thick dry crust to contend with, as a weak store of heat, lower temperatures, longer baking times can produce variable baking results.

Nina,

The rye looks beautiful.

Matthew


(how to delete double postings?)


Dear Nina,

Mixing, temperatures, steam in the oven. These are very interisting questions in rye breads. The special reqirements are seldom known even by the advanced rye preferring home bakers!

A few points: our traditional bakers a 100 years ago started with big loafs of pure rye. Then came the white rolls, and so on. Why? The falling temperatures of the wood fired oven was the reason. Rye, even a big loaf, needs the highest beginning temperatures. Danubian's formula desires a beginning with 290º C! With good steam for the oven spring. But only for a few minutes!!! Than he will open his valves and the oven falls into dryness. This will maximize an open crumb on the one hand, a bold shape on the other hand. And this is what makes the baker rich and the admiring customer happy!

The reason: in the first minute you will get the oven spring in rye -upwards. But then, if the moisture stays in the oven the sidewalls of your loaf have no chance to stabilize and will become flat. Baking in a tin? Ok, deep gaps and break outs could be the result of a too long steam, even after well adjusted proofing. So I was tought by a master baker (in the net

;)

) and the very same you can read in Jeffrey Hamelmans rye chapter.

Dom's method will produce incredible fine wheat breads. Unbelievable, I haven't seen similar bold shapes made by German professionals in their super hitec hot steamed ovens. But it is also sure: the casserole will kill the shape of a rye bread, will make a pancake.

So your fan oven is not so bad for rye Ithink! The best thing you could do to stabilze the temperature in the first minutes: use a real heavy terracotta stone. Thoroughly warming up is necessary! Luxurious constructed ovens for homebakers have a special stone heating: preserving the heat if you open the door for minutes!

So give all the power you have in the stone. 220, 250, 300 degrees? Take the strongest heat, and after a few minutes open the door, release all the steam again and again, not to forget the abundance of heat. -To reach a continous fall of the temperature until you reach 210 degrees C. This maybe in a range of half an hour. Waste of energy? I need 1 € (i.e 1.59 Australian dollar) for a 2 kg loaf with "green" electric power for a full bake.

Michael


Nina, I hope you took some pictures of the crumb? Look forward to see them.

Ooops, I didn't actually.

:oops:

The bread is still fine though, so I can do it tomorrow (gotta have daylight...)
The crumb was nice and even, just slightly sticky at the center. It would have been perfect was it not for my stupid oven making the crust too thick and dry. I'm sure it's the fan thing that I can't turn off, it has been messing with my white bread too untill I tried Dom's steam trick.
Usually with ryebread I cover the tin halfway through baking, I think I'll do that next time. It's necessary with my stupid oven *grumbles*
We still eat the bread even if it's hard work for the teeth, it's tastes great

;)

@Jeremy: we didn't have any gravlax ('gravad laks' in Danish), but it's fantastic with slices of cooked potato, mayo and chives. It's also really good with cheese, yummy!

Wow!
Nina that looks great, the rye looks like it needs some gravlax or some butter and something else! When you slash always go and don't stop, take your shot as we say in the kitchen! Otherwise it looks real good!
I am also in rye mode today! I'm trying a schwarzsonnenblumkern brot, have to do a bread interview first and rush back! Will keep everyone in suspense, or I will send it to the loaf of shame gallery at Dans, maybe we should have one here as well!

Jeremy

[quote="nina"]Yesterday I gave Boris' black 100% rye a go. The color is more brown than black, but the bread is looking really good so far. Can't wait to cut into it! I wasn't sure how much of a final proof to give this loaf, so perhaps it's a tad underproved? [/quote]

G'day Nina, looks pretty good, the darker colour comes about by reducing the baking temp further and baking longer. But you should have enough caramelisation internally to call it a dark bread. It could be a little under proof but it's difficult to tell from the above photo. Anyway, how does the internal structure look, feel and taste?

I didn't end up making it this week, too many urgent things to do and I'll be busy at work behind the desk this week. I might make some after the holidays.

[quote="nina"]The white loaf next to it with the sorry excuse for slashes is Dan Lepards crusty potato loaf, with a tiny bit of wholewheat and semolina added, plus some chopped fresh rosemary. I love the taste and smell of this bread...[/quote]

It looks fine, just like bread made at home, in Denmark no less!! I have never been able to like rosemary, don't know why, I just don't.

Nina, great breads! All this talk about rye here and over at Dan's make me want to try. You think it'll work if I made a teeny tiny baby one? Don't think my family will dig it that much.

Hey, your slashes are way better than my latest wholemeal one.


Nina, well done ! No doubt, perfect proofing. Rosemary sounds fine as a spice!

TP, there is a specialty they make in a small region in the alps (Tirol). "Vintschgerls" (I can't get the word over my tounge either!). These are real small flat loafs, perhaps 100 g, made with pure rye (I show you a pic from a member of our forum), possible also  with 50/50 rye-wheat mixture.  They add always a small amount of a regional clover as a spice. Carla has a nice authentic recipe.

Michael

the baby loafs:


the crumb:



(made by Gär-Linde in Pöt's Forum, Pöt is a member here too)


Ah...that sounds perfect. The crumb looks very interesting. Thanks for the heads-up, Michael. Now, where is dear Carla?


Thanks for all the great advice. I did start out with a high temperature and steam, and let out the steam after 10 minuttes or so (I'd have to looks at my notes to be sure, I'm such a scatter-brain), and lowered the temperature. My own though when I cut into the bread was that I should have left it in a bit longer and maybe at a lower temperature. But since the extra time in the oven produces such a dry crust, I'm not sure just baking it longer would be a good idea.
I'll be sure to try with the stone next time, and maybe cover up the tin for some of the time - it does seem to keep the crust somewhat more moist.

And here it is, finally - the crumb:
[img]http://www.sourdough.com.au/gallery/d/8594-1/x070621ryecrumb1.jpg[/img]

If you have any more advice after seeing the pic, hit me with it!

;)

I could eat that, looks ready for a smorgasbord!

Jeremy

Dear Nina, Dear Boris,

I have to apologize...

First thing, the crumb you showed looks really nice. A 100 % rye - and I guess it is real 100% extraction meal - just has to look like this. Perhaps for most people living in the world of wheat it looks somehow dense. But this is purism in rye and it means: take a thin sliceand enjoy the taste! Btw I cannot detect a sticky point in the middle of the crumb

:lol:

Now, sorry, I showed you the pic with the "Vintschgerls". Well, as TP recognized they have an unusal open crumb. All right, the baker of this Vintschgerl used extraction flour and an unknwon amount of wheat. Not for taste, only for the look. It was wrong to put in a pic here directly. So I edit it and give only the link.

And I want apologize to Danubian, talking about 290 degrees talking about his 100% tin baked rye. I wrote it late last night, and had the formula in mind he gave us for the hearth baked 80% rye loaf with the vulcanic look.

:?

He seems to be much too politely to comment this..

:roll:

Michael


Michael, since you're Dr. Spok you'd know what I'm thinking, no need to apologise! Yes you're correct, again; another rule of thumb, the higher the rye % in the bread the thinner the slice!!

Nina, well done, the crumb looks pretty good from here. It's a bit irregular in cell size but it's fine. Was it moist or sticky? It 'looks' ok but that's no substitue for touching it. How would you describe the flavour; sweetish but sour?
It's one of my favourites, but unfortunately only I and my Turkish coffee drinking colleague in the loading dock likes it here at work.

Thanks for the nice comments. And no need to apologize Michael, I always love to learn more about rye baking, especially from people who are passionate about rye

;)

I will definitely give my baking stone a try for my next loaf of ryebread.

Ok, remember these pics were taken after *count fingers* 5 days. So the bread had been cut into and had dried somewhat.
The center of the crumb was slightly looser than the rest of the crumb and a bit sticky. Not gummy though. It could be that the crumb was just a bit too moist rather than sticky, as you define it, Boris.
3 days after baking it was still more sticky on the knife than my usual ryes, that's why I think it should have had more time in the oven.
We're still eating from it (one thing I love about these ryeloaves, they last so long!) and it still cuts nicely, no crumbling.
It has a wonderful, rich smell, definitely sour and sweet, and the taste is mild.

I'll definitely be trying this bread again. Soon I think

;)

Now if I could just prevent my own from drying out the crust...

[quote="nina"]@Jeremy: we didn't have any gravlax [/quote]
Great mistake , Nina, very great mistake

:lol:

"laks", graved in Canadian maple syrup, topped with a dish of wasabi or any cream of horseradish..there is nothing better you could do to a dammned good rye bread

:)

Looks fine, the loaves of most commersial bakers around here don' look very different.
Crumb looks at me, as it could be soured a little bit longer.

[quote="bianchifan"][quote="nina"]Crumb looks at me, as it could be soured a little bit longer.[/quote][/quote]

Markus, which crumb characteristics indicate to you a lack of acidification?

The pores flutter, maybe to much amylasian work (less sour), maybe the result from tin.
I don't know I do not bake in tins.

Hi Nina, both of your loaves look great! Did you get any crumb pictures of the Rosemary loaf? You inspire me to work more on the Rye. I must get going! Been too busy lately! Thanks for all of the info on Rye everyone, I need a journal just for such info.
Teresa

Nina,

your beautiful rye loaf inspired me to have a go at Boris' recipe.

how long did you leave it to prove? He doesn't say in the recipe.
Did you leave it uncovered?

I didn't have any of the wonderful cracks in the top, and the crumb is denser than yours, so I suspect that I needed to leave mine for longer. (Melbourne is cold at the moment, and proving takes longer)

no pics. precious little time for baking or posting at the moment

cheers
Dom


Teresa, thanks

:)

No, the rosemary loaf was gobbled up too fast

:lol:

It's my husband's favorite.
Dom, I'm not sure how long I left it to proof, 2-3 hours I believe, in a warm spot in the house. The wonderful cracks developed as the loaf was proving. While prooving, I covered the tin loosely with some cling film (is that the right word?) rubbed with oil, just because that's my usual routine. The tin was taller than the loaf though, so the film never touched the dough.

Hiya,

I am a Newbie and keen to try this bread out. Where can I find the recipe ?

Cheerio,

Kaaren
Hi Nina,

I have always been a bread nut, buying bread based on smell, appearance and how heavy it sat in my hand. Due to food intolerances I am beginning my exploration into the wonderful world of sourdough and rye. Can you give me the 100% recipe you talked about on this post ?

Can't wait to use sourdough and learn about this lovely living food.

Cheerio,

Kaaren
Checked with Nina (she's busy). Here you go....clicky here.


Hi Nina,

Thanks heaps for the recipe. I will give it a go in the next day or so and let you know how it goes.

Cheerio, Kaaran
Can anyone advise proving times for this recipe? Does "warm and draft free" apply only to proving up to a certain duration, and if going beyond that is a fridge retard possible/useful?

Also, the highest proportion rye I have made is 70% and I basically mixed the final bread dough by hand, with a bit of sloppy folding. It handled like toothpaste and so was not really "kneaded", although up baked up fine. With 100% rye do you even attempt to knead, or do you just basically mix it up (which I will do by hand), let it ferment briefly (15-30 mins seems short!) and shape?

Quick answers appreciated as I have the sour and soaker going at home now, and will need to do whatever I do with them tonight when I get home!
Here....I'll help you.

Yoooooo hoooooooo!!!



Yeah I already emailed the guru but think I might not get a reply til after I've had to pull the trigger...
Davo,

You might try reading Jane's observations of using Rye...

http://aulevain.canalblog.com/archives/2008/11/01/11190306.html


I found this to be very helpful on how rye acts.   I think the best point that I learned from her Blog was not to add more rye flour if your dough is too sticky. 


Terri

You really are what you eat, so eat wisely...

Nice work Nina. Can't wait to for the next one. Love that bread!
[quote=TeckPoh]Checked with Nina (she's busy). Here you go....clicky here.
[/quote]
I'm here, thanks to TP bringing this post to my attention.
And thanks TP, you did find the right post, that's the original recipe I used for the rye loaf in this thread.
I can't take credit for the recipe, it's not mine but Boris' (Danubian).

The loaf was made with 100% extraction rye (I believe the danish rye flour is a bit on the coarse side) and no yeast added. Bulk fermenattion was 30 minuttes in a warm spot in the house, final proofing 2 - 3 hours in that same warm spot.

As for kneading, I never knead 100% rye doughs (or 80% for that matter) I just mix the dough really well with my hands. Usually I won't shape it either, just put the dough into the tin and press/smooth it with a wet hand. This recipe calls for rolling the dough in flour, which I did, but I wouldn't try to shape the dough like I do with a white dough.
And yes, the dough should be sticky and paste-like, not at all like a wheat dough.

As for retarding in a fridge, I've never tried it myself, but I've never seen it recommended either. My impression is that the 'chemistry' of rye baking is quite different from that of wheat baking, so you can't neccesarily use the same methods, well more often than not you can't. For the rye loaf to turn out ok you need a lot of acidity in your starter as well as a high proportion of fermented/soured flour, and you want a lot of activity in your final dough, which means the dough will move quite fast. So there's no need (or benefit) in retarding in the fridge.

I hope that was helpful, if not feel free to ask.
I'm no expert on rye baking myself, and I haven't been baking dark rye loaves for a while. My best advice is to keep praticing, rye baking *is* tricky. But that bread... mmmmm! It's so worth the hassle!

Nina, thanks for the advice. I baked it as best I could and it worked out fine - didn't get that nice patterned splitting on the top - maybe the rolling in flour might have helped that, but inside whilst fairly dense did have a reasonable bit of air in it. I think my proving time was 2.5 hours, next time I might try slightly longer. I took a crumb pic but the missus seems to have deleted it from the camera! It was much the same as yours albeit perhaps slightly less size in the biggest holes. Very sour, which I liked. Mine had about 10-15% kibbled rye, I think I'll up that next time, too.

We had some sliced about 3 mm thick, with cream cheese and Gravlax at Xmas. Was reasonably popular!

I found that after storing for about 2-3 days in a plastic shopping bag, the moisture evened out and made the crust easily sliceable, and it was very easy to cut thin with a very sharp, thin, unserrated knife (I used a thin carbon steel chinese chopping knife).

I haven't made a heavy loaf since, maybe once it's colder again in Autumn/winter, I'll do some more...

http://sourdough.com/gallery2/gallery/d/15174-2/PC130018.JPG

Mmmm, that looks good! And it sounds to me like you got it just right. For my usual rye loaves I don't do the rolling in flour thing, and they end up looking much like yours. I always store rye loaves in a plastic bag and wait one or two days before I cut into them, for the reason you noted yourself. One of my favorite things to eat with rye is slices of boiled potato (cold) with mayo, chopped onion and chives - salt and pepper on that. Yummy! Slices of hardboiled eggs and tomatoes with some crisp bacon on top is also heavenly. You can also toast slices of rye bread (need a bit longer in the toaster than white bread), I love toasted rye with cheese. God, now I've made myself really hungry!

The other thing was I was a bit worried it might not have cooked right through but it was fine.

Funny, I really like my normal 20/25% rye 75/80% unbleached baker's flour sourdoughs toasted. But the 100% rye I just didn't quite get the same benefit, and preferred to eat untoasted. Lucky it kept so long.

I quite liked cream cheese, tuna and sliced tomato on it, or homemade spicy tomato chutney, hummous and cheddar cheese (the cheese grilled on top), or cream cheese and hot brinjal (eggplant) pickle, or avocado, lemon juice and salt. These are the things I often eat on toasted sourdoughs with the 20% or so rye in them, as well.

Or finely chop up tomatoes, parsley, spring onion, red pepper, and a few home-grown lettuce and rocket leaves, grate in some tasty cheddar and a little raw zuchini and add a can of tuna (anchovies optional - I like), then splash in EV olive oil, a dash of balsamic vinegar &/or lemon juice, a good big glob of whole egg mayonnaise, and some chilli powder or finely chopped chilli, salt and pepper, and mix up. The mayo and disintegrating cheese holds it all together quite well when it's put on a piece of sourdough, especially if all the green leaves are chopped fine in two directions (like parsley in a tabbouleh), and you can chomp into it heartily! This can be piled/spread on about 2 cm think on your sourdough. Must be eaten with hands, over a plate to pick up any spillage! Knives and forks are not in the right spirit for this! This is a common quick weekend lunch, and uses stuff out of the garden plus things commonly in the fridge or cupboard, so costs almost nothing, but is a fine meal.

Or a poached back-yard egg on top of sourdough covered with chutney, hummous and a few finely choped rocket leaves, with salt and pepper on top!

Or.... etc